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Revisiting The Big O - 20 Years Later


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Arale Kurashiki



Joined: 24 Aug 2015
Posts: 744
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:33 pm Reply with quote
The question, to me, isn't whether the dots can be connected, it's whether they need to be in the first place. I'll have to get back to you on thoughts about the series as a whole but season 1 finale and season 2 opener are incredible works of direction, whether they "make sense" or not.
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LightningCount



Joined: 04 Mar 2018
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:17 pm Reply with quote
ANN Forums won't let me post this as one post, so I'll break it up into two, hopefully...

1/2

SPOILERS THROUGHOUT:

spoiler[For anyone interested in deep-diving speculation and analysis, in 2010 and 2003, respectively, I put together a lot of thoughts on The Big-O. In 2010, I took a literal approach, and 2003 I tried an allegorical approach. I do believe that the series was not finished, as Sean Akins of Cartoon Network plainly stated in the earlier interview I quoted from in this thread. (Though just within the last year I recall Jason DeMarco saying on Twitter that Cartoon Network will never return to work on The Big-O, despite what they did with FLCL). So, we won't have all the puzzle pieces. But we have more with Season 2 than we did with Season 1, and the series art book has even more clues to analyze. So, if you're interested, read on. The 2010 analysis is the most concise, though I could boil it down even further. If you want TLDR version of the 2010 writing without all the juicy tidbits, it'd be Paradigm City is a simulation to create a scenario where a catastrophic event from the past will not be repeated, and it will keep resetting until it comes up with a solution. Whatever I wrote here, though, please don't let it discourage you from bringing your own analysis to the table. I just thought this might help the conversation. (You know, though, in the end, if The Big-O had continued, I almost feel it eventually would have reached an ending along the lines of RahXephon perhaps.)

2010 Analysis:
So, people have been raving about how brain-busting "Inception" was, but that got me thinking that it's got nothing on The BIG-O's Season 2's mind-melting ending. It got me thinking about that ending again...First off, did you know the animated ending was changed from the original script? Here you can read the original ending from the BIG-O art book, translated: http://www.paradigm-city.com/scripts/article.php?a=bigoact26 (Events are being repeated, but have been altered. What does this mean for the future of Paradigm? Will Roger be able to remember and act more swiftly from these changes?)

Now, back to the main thrust of the topic: Personally, I really don't subscribe at all to the "literally a TV Show" theory ala "The Truman Show." It doesn't add up when you take all the elements; it's too simple. Why, for instance, are people like Dr. Wainwright building copper-plated safehouses, for instance? Why can Schwarzwald exist beyond death and possess machines? I think the idea of a "show" may be "allegorically" accurate, though, which I'll explain further down...

The ending has so many disparate, seemingly contradictory parts, that I don't think we can know the specifics for sure, but here's what I do know. Looking at the design art book of Big-O, Paradigm City appears to be built on the ruins of an older city, which is built on rock, that is built on a board or stage (presumably the white grid-board at the end of Season 2). Beneath the city is a series of enormous gears that dwarf even Megadeus. Surrounding the city is water and more old city. Above the city are stage lights. Paradigm means "model," so Paradigm City is the model for something. This is as much I have been able to conclude: The purpose of Paradigm City is to create a scenario of events that avoids its reset by Big Venus. In a sense, it's a god-like simulation trying to prevent disaster. But why is it that when there are "resets," some of the destruction remains, even after the "board" has been cleared of everything (as seen in the finale of Season 2)? Roger, Angel, and Dorothy seem to be the most important pieces to Paradigm City. Roger meeting the two girls sets off a chain of events.

Now, some broad speculation: Paradigm City was developed after a crippling war in the outside world to figure out a scenario where history wouldn't repeat itself and people could move forward without god-complexes that led to destruction. As such, Paradigm City's citizens are not truly real people in of themselves, but are becoming self-conscious the more the simulation repeats itself. This explains why Wainwright is trying to avoid being "erased" by building a counter-electrical, copper-plated safehouse, and may explain how he kept enough memories to build Dorothy 1 and 2, Glinda, etc. And also how Schwarzwald transcended the need for a physical presence and became a conscious entity (or glitch?) within the system that controls Paradigm. It could be that Roger, Angel, and Dorothy are the only "real" people--(or perhaps they are representative of some sort of Christian Trinity?).

At any rate, Angel may have sent herself into this doomsday simulation at some point in the past to see if she could change its outcome from within, or maybe her apparent role as "Big Venus," but lost her memory. Paradigm City became her "hell" (hence the Fallen Angel/Mark of the Beast references) as she tried to figure out who she was. Roger was sent in to get her back, but kept failing. Which resulted in Dorothy being sent in. This doesn't explain hardly anything, but I've been trying to figure out the framework that the series works on. One clue could be in author H.P. Lovecraft's writing, which the BIG-O head writer was influenced by, which has malevolent gods overseeing the world as a stage, and awakening to bring it into chaos. One might be able to work that framework within BIG-O. Maybe Paradigm is doomed forever?]


But, bottom line, some really, really weird stuff is happening in Paradigm City--a very weird, repetitive "test" it seems. And I feel like whatever it is, it affects whatever world may exist beyond Paradigm City.



{Edit}: I added spoiler tags to your post. Simply saying "spoilers" is not enough here. We do expect users to use spoiler tags. Thank you. ~ Psycho 101


Last edited by LightningCount on Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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LightningCount



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:18 pm Reply with quote
2/2

SPOILERS THROUGHOUT:


spoiler[2003 Analysis:
[There seems to be a lot of biblical/faith references in this series, which may or may not be significant to understanding the larger story/themes. Some of these are definitely a stretch, but it's fascinating. This wasn't so much an analysis in retrospect as it was an examination of some references. You'll have to excuse the "roughness" of it all...]

-Four Horsemen references. "Megadeus...they are the sacred chariots of mankind," well chariots and horses go together, and there are four main Bigs which seem to have some connection to the Four Horsemen. Black (represents balance and justice): BIG O is black, Roger (the pilot) has his own "laws" and "rules" that he lives his life by and imposes on others. Red (represents blood and rebellion): BIG DUO is red and has twice attacked Paradigm. White (represents military leadership/king): Big Fau is white and the head of the city pilots it against the unknown force attacking the city from the sky in episode 25. Pale Green (represents famine and death from plagues): Big Venus' translucent mode appears similarly, and it sorta marks the death of the current Paradigm and a plague that erases memories.

-Every time Roger goes in the Big O and Alex goes into the Big Fau it says "Cast in the name of God...Ye Not Guilty."

-There's episodes about the church, and how people still go and sing "praises," though they can't remember why.

-Two names of Union mecha (megadeus) have been Leviathan and Behemoth, which are both monsters from the Bible that have some corresponding attributes to those in the show.

-"Book of Revelations" is mentioned quite clearly (Daemonseed episode), but no one knows what the book is.

-Gordon wrote a book (part of book) that's called METROPOLIS (Fritz Lang reference, for starters) that's about the end of the world. He says Roger should be able to finish the book, or something to that extent. Seems that could be an Old Testament to be fulfilled with the New Testament reference.

-On the Christmas episode of Season 1, they celebrate Heaven's Day in front of "Heaven's Gate" which is in front of the head office of Paradigm where Alex lives. And Alex, unlike the others, knows somehow that Heaven's Day once had another name, and was about the celebration of God's son coming into the world. Something he takes the time to make prominent note of...

-The concept of a Trinity is played with: Gordon Rosewater (the Father), Alex Rosewater who always wears white (the Son) and Roger Smith, who works among the people and negotiates (the Holy Spirit). It certainly doesn't fit in terms of some of their motivations--Alex, in particular--but it could be that the original roles were altered over time with Paradigm City resetting. It's possible that Roger was meant to be the Son at one point, since they always talk about roles changing.

-The three foreign megadeus sent by the Union had parts in them to build Big Fau for the city's designated "Son," Alex. Well, the three megadeus gifts could represent those of the foreign Magi: Gold, Frankincense, and Myrrh. And similarly, the three parts are used to build one megadeus: Big Fau. Again, the idea of a Trinity, and in this case a three-in-one Trinity, is played with.

-The world is a stage, there's something above it...perhaps like Heaven?
Speaking of stage, that's why the "Dominus of a Megadeus" summons a megadeus with "showtime" and activates it with "action." Both are calls for roles in a play. And further, episodes are called, "ACTS." Could be a take on how the world is a stage created by God, with free will playing out...

-The Megadeus (literally "Mega God") are noted to be the "sacred chariots of mankind"

-Roger can pilot Big O and Alex can pilot Big Fau because they are perhaps part of and/or originally meant to be representative of the Trinity and are thus "not guilty." Alan Gabriel, who tries to control the second big (Duo) is found "guilty" because he is not a part of the three?

-Alan Gabriel: Name reference to Gabriel the Archangel?

-Angel, or sometimes called 'fallen angel.' Bible references there as well. ...maybe she's the Devil in disguise, unaware to her, and she's the rightful pilot of Big Duo?

-Dominus of megadeus . . . dominus means "lord" or "master" in Latin.

-Big Duo...Duo is Latin for "Devil."

-Maybe the magadeus are the angels sent to fight at Doomsday?

-Stripes Episode: Pool ball, the one that falls in the pocket is a "3" (the Trinity, Roger's the third person in the trinity by theory possibly?) There's other "3" references throughout the series as well.

-Gordon (the Father) says Alex is his Son...but everyone else are his sons/children too. Those are God-like words.

-Big Ear wears what looks to be a yarmulke. Perhaps he represents a prophet with his knowledge giving?

-Schwarzwald, a major enemy in season one who pilots Big Duo first after uncovering it, acted as a prophet, telling the city about many things in pamphlets (the contents are not totally explained, but its cryptic, religious-style text). He says to Roger, the first one to do so, "Do we control them, or do they control us? Do they need a master, or do they choose a master"--referring to megadeus. In the end, though a villain, he turns out to be, thus far, more of a prophet, who didn't necessarily mean complete harm despite his seeming craziness. Also, he died in the desert, a place of significance in the Bible. Fuirther, his original name was Michael Seebach...Michael is an Archangel in the Bible with a prominent role in the Book of Revelation.

-Cross/crucifix references throughout the series up till the end. Big Fau's design itself has a stain-glass/church/bishop look to it.

-Stars falling from the sky (with the satellites and the unknown things destroying Paradigm in episode 25). Happens in Revelation, stars crashing to Earth.

-There's a passage in Revelation that has a woman sprouting wings and retreating to the desert. Sounds a bit like Angel: (Revelation 12:14 NIV-->"The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.")

-"Fallen Angel." They mention that Angel will return to the monster she truly is when her wings were plucked. That's allegorically reminiscent of what happened to the angel who became the devil in the Bible. Roger rejected Angel in Stripes episode; Christ rejected the devil when tempted. Roger and angel sat apart from one another in the bar, too. Weren't allowed to be equals/partners.


[Again, much of the above from 2003 was a stretch, but it was also curious. There are definitely references being made. As we know from Evangelion, these sorts of "shout-outs" can mean very little. Even so, within the mix of it all, and some more than others, they may prove important to deciphering the larger story concepts being presented on top of the "simulation" I mentioned in the 2010 analysis. I love how this series works the mind with its riddles--even if convoluted--amidst some really strong and clever directing and action and art, and some rather endearing characters, too.]]


PS: The ANN feature should have used more imagery from the first season, as the second season's visuals were definitely not as rich and atmospheric due to the shift in art methods. The first season of The Big-O really draws you in with the textured visuals like how Cowboy Bebop does.


{Edit}: I added spoiler tags to your post. Simply saying "spoilers" is not enough here. We do expect users to use spoiler tags. Thank you. ~ Psycho 101
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DangerMouse



Joined: 25 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:21 pm Reply with quote
So true Sakura Shinguji, I ADORE the soundtrack to this show. I still listen to many of the tracks even now.

Advent_Nebula wrote:
I still love this series, sure the ending is a convoluted mess, but the film noir atmosphere of the series, as well as Dorthy and Angel make this series I revisit every several years.

This. The very last episode has a weird ending, but I love this show so damned much. Their VAs were perfect for them too, as was pretty much the entire dub cast. Lia Sargent's Dorothy was perfection, I loved her and her deadpan humor, she delivered it so well.
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Angel'sArcanum



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:32 pm Reply with quote
Gotta say I agree with the assessment, honestly. I just watched the entirety of Big O for the first time a little while ago, and there were some disparate hints at ideas wrestling with social structure, class, archetypes, identity and such, but it was always so fleeting and not fully-formed. The first half was more consistent but never capitalized on its hints at something more thought-provoking with its simple, episodic travails, but then the second half comes in, properly introducing the antagonist but lacks focus or some real driving plot elements - Roger basically just lets Rosewater walk away and not doing anything about him as if he's just twiddling his thumbs waiting for the series endgame to come. When it finally did come, the uneven pacing made the wild reveals in the finale finally dig into some of the meta elements teased at a bit earlier, but is insanely rushed and convoluted, nigh-incomprehensible, lending no weight to any of it besides being some trippy simulation clusterf***.

There's probably a fantastic series buried somewhere in here, but they really didn't seem to know what they were going for here.
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LinkTSwordmaster



Joined: 23 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:46 pm Reply with quote
At the risk of being shot by a gang of roaming nerds, I'd like to admit my young self adored The Big O largely for the same reasons I liked the Bruce Timm superhero shows, particularly the Batman ones, and The Big O in turn is why a decade later Batman Beyond caught my eye - the look. The tone, the color palette used, the steampunk/cyberpunk/art deco/noir styles that ooze out of most of the art stills that come into focus whenever I remember The Big O.

It's just, I always thought The Big O did those things better. Roger and Dorothy were infinitely more interesting, even just to look at, more than Bruce Wayne ever could dare hope to dream (costumed or otherwise).

I've always had an animalistic, instinctive distaste for comic books, especially superhero comics for various reasons - the format, (lack of) availability, retconning.... There's just so many things to keep track of, so much history, so much of a time investment I wasn't even going to dare touch as a kid to even begin to make Bruce Wayne an emotionally-invest-able character for myself.

As such, any scene lacking The Joker or Harley on the Batman shows was uninteresting to me, and the clean-slate story that was The Big O was infinitely more attractive. The Big O was not already a "solved puzzle" like Batman was when it first aired on Cartoon Network. The Big O read at a glance as an infinitely more detailed Batman with an added layer of depth to its visuals that the anime medium of character styling/storytelling brought with it. As with what attracted me as a kid to the Batman shows, Roger and Dorothy were interesting to watch exist in the scenes they were given, much more than Bruce Wayne since The Big O still had the advantages of "mystery" and "intrigue".

I think that's a fair part of why the second season fell apart for my younger self as well. The first season was easier to digest either weekly or in re-runs, the second season was harder to keep track of with so much time waiting between episode broadcasts to remember what each thing meant from scene to scene, episode to episode. I legitimately wonder, were VoD/streaming whole seasons as big a factor back then as they are today, would The Big O have been more successful or would it have been a magnifying glass to the show's flaws?

I'd love to see a reboot made. Fix the problems, hint that the original series happened but got reset, go all-out with the visuals.... Where I don't think you could get away with a Cowboy Bebop remake, The Big O seems like a waste not to take another chance with.
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:21 pm Reply with quote
I was excited to see this article pop up, but wow, the author is selling the series seriously short here. Whatever its origins, Big O wound up being more than an attempt by Sunrise to market toys. Chiaki J. Konaka is one of my favorite anime writers, largely because of his mastery of the mindscrew, and Big O represents him at just about his absolute mindscrew-iest. More than once during my long Internet history, I've written multi-thousand-word essays trying to puzzle out the backstory of Paradigm City and the meaning of what's shown to us, and while I may have been completely barking up the wrong tree, I enjoyed every second of doing it. I'd give a great deal of money to be able to pick Konaka's brain about what else he had planned. LightningCount already did a great write-up of many of the religious references in the series (which as he said may be superficial...after all, this was within the post-Eva period when every single mecha series was contractually obligated to have them), but there are so many other layers you can unpack. Metropolis. The copious pop culture references, both Western and Japanese. (As already noted, "The Greatest Villain" is fantastic.) Simulations and time loops, and the central question of the nature of Paradigm itself. (For the record, I'm of the firm belief that episode 14, "Roger the Wanderer," is maybe the most important episode of the whole series.) I seem to be in somewhat of a minority in that I decidedly prefer the second season, as it built on the world the largely stand-alone first season created and took it to some incredibly interesting places. Sure, the ending was one big massive ball of WTF, but in a way that only made me like it more, since it left room for countless interpretations and debates that a more clear-cut conclusion never would have.

I would never call Big O a perfect series, and there are multiple others I've seen over my anime-watching career that I'd count as better. But it still holds its place as my personal sentimental favorite. The outstanding steampunk-meets-noir-meets-Batman aesthetic, the fantastically weighty mech fights, the terrific soundtrack, the all-time legendary dub...it's a blast. Season 2 was the very first anime DVD I ever purchased, and I think it's long past time I gave the whole thing a good rewatch. If you've never seen it and you're any sort of mecha or Konaka or Batman fan, I highly encourage you to give it a try.
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Scias



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:23 am Reply with quote
I can understand where people are coming from when it comes to the second season. The animation went digital and lost that style that made it stand out amongst the rest, what made the first 13 episodes noir-masterpieces just seemed to disappear and be only replaced with a convoluted storyline with a finale that is notoriously bizarre and incomprehensible.

But this article just kind of screamed snarky contrarian nerd "yeah what you liked as a kid actually sucks, I'm very intelligent" trite that you see everyday in any community or fandom.
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penguintruth



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:37 am Reply with quote
I can't remember where I read it online, but I was always interested in the theory that Paradigm City is some kind of program to preserve humanity that started artificially, and with each new iteration, becomes "more real", until "it becomes the real thing" (like the tomatoes). This is why the city has so many relics of times past strewn about, because it becomes more difficult to erase them at the end of each version, or they end up appearing again in the new one. It was a very interesting hypothesis that I've just sort of treated as true as I've interpreted the show all these years.

I don't understand the "merchandise over style" charge, because we barely got any merchandise at all for the show. The show definitely put more detail into tension, mystery, and character than most Gundam shows of its time. Maybe we watched two different shows, because I got a richer experience from watching it.

The second season does get a little out there, though.


Last edited by penguintruth on Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ouran High School Dropout



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:36 am Reply with quote
Don't care what anyone else says: Big O is one of my fondest anime memories of that period. The show had style, even a touch of class. The series as a whole, chock-full of derivative elements as it was, nonetheless stood firmly on its own. The characters were engaging, if not immediately understandable, which is a good thing. As for the story, there was something that was mysterious and compelling that gave this fan something very much worth pursuing. (Not to mention a musical score--BGM as well as OP/ED--that still ranks among my favorites.)

That said, I freely admit that the second season was jarring. There was nothing "wrong" with Roger's disturbing change in personality--except that the viewer was never really given a clue as to why it happened. It wouldn't have hurt to have spent a few episodes showing us the reason for Roger's mental decline. As for the narrative, I admit I was left something in the dark--though there were a few puzzle pieces that could be put together, it simply wasn't enough without a third or even fourth year.

On the plus side, there's Season 1's gift of the most memorable "relationship" this anime fan has ever seen: Roger Smith and R. Dorothy Wayneright. The suave, confident hunk vs. the android Queen of Snark, an epic battle of wits! Laughing . Watching these two spar was an absolute joy, especially when you realize that Roger does indeed have feelings for this "machine" that harbors some very non-mechanical thoughts. It may have been the fact we were already around 40 years old when we first saw Big O, but my wife and I were constantly laughing along with the "old married couple"!
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Arale Kurashiki



Joined: 24 Aug 2015
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:12 am Reply with quote
I'm surprised there are so many people who say the first season is great on its own; the backend of it had lots of mysteries that were deliberately left unanswered too, they were just episodic non-answers instead of arc-based ones. Remember "Daemonseed" where the big ominous rock just turns into a christmas tree and all questions about it and the person behind it are immediately dropped? Or the episode that revolves around a "secret" that they never actually say?
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BadNewsBlues



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:10 pm Reply with quote
LinkTSwordmaster wrote:
At the risk of being shot by a gang of roaming nerds,



To quote Bugs Bunny would you like them to shoot you now or wait til
you get home?
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LinkTSwordmaster



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:07 pm Reply with quote
BadNewsBlues wrote:
LinkTSwordmaster wrote:
At the risk of being shot by a gang of roaming nerds,



To quote Bugs Bunny would you like them to shoot you now or wait til
you get home?


Uhoh, it IS rabbit season now if I'm not mistaken....

I'd be interested to go back and watch The Big O now that the glow of youth and innocence has faded. See if it still holds up as much as it does in my memories or not.

I actually went back recently and watched all of Outlaw Star again - it was BAD. I remember it being so intense and intriguing when it first aired on Toonami/Adult Swim back in the day, but I think a large part of why it originally felt that way was because the week-to-week format of the show broke up some of the glaring/boring elements of the (lack of?) plot after the first arc. The first arc is great, then you have almost 20 episodes of random anime/scifi antics, then the last two episodes just leave you hanging and never really feel satisfying. The OP for Outlaw in my mind is comparable in awesome to Cowboy Bebop's, and I physically cannot watch either ED of Outlaw Star without sobbing like a baby.

Would The Big O fare the same? I really do wonder. Would love to see it remastered and put up on a streaming service.[/b]
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Cardcaptor Takato



Joined: 27 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:07 pm Reply with quote
The Big O is still one of my all time favorite Toonami classics and I loved it for being like this mix of mecha, Dark City, and Batman with steampunk elements. The characters are still some of the most memorable like Roger, Dorothy, Norman, and Angel and I love all the unique mecha designs and the exciting action scenes and the surreal mysteries. It's also still one of the best English dubs and everyone is cast perfectly and this is one of those shows that's better to watch dubbed than subbed. With all the anime reboots and sequel revivals happening, Big O is one that needs to happen and I'd love it if Cartoon Network could somehow co-fund a third season and I would have preferred a Big O revival over FLCL if I'm entirely honest even though I didn't hate the FLCL sequels as much as most people did. But given how poorly the FLCL sequels were received, I'd be surprised if Cartoon Network would co-fund more revival sequels anytime soon.

Quote:
Would The Big O fare the same? I really do wonder. Would love to see it remastered and put up on a streaming service.[/b]
They have The Big O streaming on HiDive.


Last edited by Cardcaptor Takato on Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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taster of pork



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:18 pm Reply with quote
I’ve never really understood the ending of Big O. But I still love the series. Especially the music.
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