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Answerman - What's With All The School Uniforms In Anime? [2019-04-03]


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Alan45
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Joined: 25 Aug 2010
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Location: Virginia
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:00 pm Reply with quote
Steve Minecraft wrote:
I just assume it's because America has a poor schooling system compared to elsewhere in the world and can't really afford to do uniforms in every public school. That's why you usually only see uniforms at private schools.


The U.S. does not have a school system as such. Each individual community or group of communities has its own system which it funds and runs. In this they are guided by state regulations and some national regulations. As a result public schools can range from excellent to abysmal depending on funding and local attitudes.

The issue of uniforms in public school is in most states (if not all) entirely a local matter. Since school boards and the communities that they represent tend to avoid change as a matter of course it is highly unlikely that a significant percentage of U.S. schools will adopt uniforms.
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CandisWhite



Joined: 19 Apr 2015
Posts: 282
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:45 pm Reply with quote
Steve Minecraft wrote:
Alan45 wrote:
I think the absence of school uniforms in the U.S. stems from the fact that universal schooling was started when the country is still very agricultural and many children had very few sets of clothing. Basically you went to school in what your wore everyday.


I just assume it's because America has a poor schooling system compared to elsewhere in the world and can't really afford to do uniforms in every public school. That's why you usually only see uniforms at private schools.

Impoverished schools in impoverished countries historically have had uniforms; There are horror stories of children being denied schooling because they can't afford the uniform. Think of the videos from African countries where there's a small one room schoolhouse that has children in matching dresses.

Yes, American and Canadian schools do not have the same rigid national programs as other countries, including Japan, but it doesn't mean that they are all struggling.

It's far more for cultural reasons than financial ones that countries do or do not have uniforms.

There's a great video on Youtube about Japanese lunch programs, from a channel called Life Where I'm From. The man, a Canadian ex-pat married to a Japanese woman and living in Japan with his family, talks to and films a school doing its lunch program; He talks about why this happened in Japan and why it's good, both financially and nutritionally, but then reasons why this is easier to do in Japan than North America-We have such a diversity of people, whose dietary habits are so widely apart, whether from religion or just plain choice, that it would VERY tough and less economical to have a lunch program of the kind provided in Japan. I'm all on the side of a national lunch program for our schools but do see his reasons as to how the logistics of it would be a nightmare.

People are forgetting that in the argument about uniforms, it's not just about the right to wear clothes to school ( I right I had and will fight for other children to have) but to wear the clothing that reflects their culture and religion. Christians have the right to wear a cross; Muslims, a hijab, Sikhs, a turban. America and Canada have a wide variety of people with a broad spectrum of dress; Children are required to be schooled and mixed schooling is much better than segregated: Uniforms just do not have the natural fit here that they do in other places.
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Sakagami Tomoyo



Joined: 06 Dec 2008
Posts: 940
Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:57 pm Reply with quote
CandisWhite wrote:
People are forgetting that in the argument about uniforms, it's not just about the right to wear clothes to school ( I right I had and will fight for other children to have) but to wear the clothing that reflects their culture and religion. Christians have the right to wear a cross; Muslims, a hijab, Sikhs, a turban. America and Canada have a wide variety of people with a broad spectrum of dress; Children are required to be schooled and mixed schooling is much better than segregated: Uniforms just do not have the natural fit here that they do in other places.

Uniform policies can and do make allowances for such things. They're not as EVERYONE WEARING LITERALLY THE EXACT SAME THING as people seem to be assuming.
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genkisakurachan



Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 35
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:06 am Reply with quote
Alan45 wrote:
In non non Biyori the school has dwindled to five students from all grades in one classroom and the middle school students are wearing uniforms.


Lack of uniforms in rural Japanese schools is fairly common, especially in areas with low populations. Schools small enough to have elementary, junior high and high school students all in one class often forgo the uniforms too for whatever reason. The school in Higurashi no Naku Koro ni is the same (though the girls wear school uniform-style garments with sailor collars and ties, they're not standardized - everyone has a different uniform on).
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Greboruri



Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 373
Location: QBN, NSW, Australia
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:59 am Reply with quote
Alan45 wrote:
The U.S. does not have a school system as such. Each individual community or group of communities has its own system which it funds and runs. In this they are guided by state regulations and some national regulations. As a result public schools can range from excellent to abysmal depending on funding and local attitudes.

Going to suggest at this point that you have no idea how public schools are actually run and funded and seemingly have no idea what the government's role is.
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enurtsol



Joined: 01 May 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:11 am Reply with quote
As a veteran of both private and public schoolings, and thus uniforms and no uniforms, there's always pros and cons on both sides

Private uniforms are less headache about what to wear and can be a source of pride, but if something is amiss about your uniform or if the uniform sucks ass, you can be standing out to your embarrassment.

No uniforms make you look less like a drone and can make you look more grown-up, but your choice of clothes can be criticized by others.


Funnily enough, some Japanese college girls wear their old high school uniforms in the weekends to get free dates == free food Laughing

But not if the school is strict about the rules just for the sake of following the rules:
“My daughter said her legs were cold, so I let her wear a pair of tights under her skirt. But when she got to school, they told her ‘Tights aren’t allowed, because if your legs are warm, you won’t be able to concentrate.’
Can’t help but think they’re the kind of perverts who get off on seeing young girls’ bare legs.”
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nobahn
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:19 am Reply with quote
Greboruri wrote:
Alan45 wrote:
The U.S. does not have a school system as such. Each individual community or group of communities has its own system which it funds and runs. In this they are guided by state regulations and some national regulations. As a result public schools can range from excellent to abysmal depending on funding and local attitudes.
Going to suggest at this point that you have no idea how public schools are actually run and funded and seemingly have no idea what the government's role is.

Oookayyyy......
May I trouble you for any citations regarding school systems in the U.S.?
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MoonPhase1



Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 492
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:03 am Reply with quote
I had to wear a white shirt with blue pants for my uniform in middle school. Oh and had to be tucked in. But tucking in shirts is uncomfortable so I didn’t usually bother.
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Alan45
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:11 am Reply with quote
@Greboruri

You did understand that I was speaking of schools systems in the United States of America (U.S. for short) didn't you??
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AkumaChef



Joined: 10 Jan 2019
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:41 am Reply with quote
Sakagami Tomoyo wrote:

I remain unconvinced of that. It might not hinder everyone's "expression" to the point where they remain unable to express themselves after schooling, but neither does a uniform actually hinder it that much. It may amaze some Americans to know that in countries such as mine where basically all schools have uniforms, people still manage to dress how they like in a very wide variety of styles once they're out of school.

Oh, I agree that uniforms don't hinder individuality. I never made that claim. I agree with you there. I was talking about your quote "the impression that everyone's differences are accepted and respected. ". We Americans certainly make fun of each other differences on the surface, but that doesn't mean we don't respect them as well. I think you, or the Americans you talked to, may be confusing light-heated teasing with proper bullying. Just as how British (and I assume Aussie) "banter" can look much worse to someone not used to it, American school dynamics is little different.

Quote:
Sure. But just because there's a lot of other problems doesn't mean you shouldn't deal with one of them.

I disagree. I don't see a point in a "solution" that doesn't actually correct the problem. There's no point in taking a tiny step unless you're going to see it through to completion, otherwise it's just wasted effort and resources. And in this case, it doesn't even come close to correcting the "bullying" problem. That said, uniforms may well have other benefits that go well beyond the issue of what students bully each other over. I'm not opposed to uniforms in general, I'm just stating that they don't eliminate bullying and "fighting bullying" seems to be a poor justification for having them.

Quote:
I'm not saying you don't get the occasional case like that, but for the most part environmental appropriateness is accounted for.

Sounds reasonable to me. It may very well be that she just wasn't used to the cold given that we both grew up in Texas. That said, I've heard many references to Japanese students--typically female ones--dealing with inadequate clothing for cold weather. However I suspect that at least some of that has nothing to do with official policy, and rather is students being willing to suffer for their own fashion choices.


Last edited by AkumaChef on Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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yuna49



Joined: 27 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:42 am Reply with quote
Steve Minecraft wrote:
yuna49 wrote:
I'm a bit surprised no one has mentioned Kill la Kill in this context. Screenwriter Nakashima Kazuki clearly sees school uniforms as a form of regimentation with fascistic undertones.

I doubt he was making a political statement outside of "they're hot" Razz

Sure. That's why the show opens on a classroom where Naziism is being discussed, and later Satsuki delivers her Orwellian speech.

I take it you haven't seen his Oh! Edo Rocket which is a satire on political and artistic repression.
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Chichiryuutei





PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:31 pm Reply with quote
Another well researched answer.

I have yet to understand why K-12 grades school students care about their individuality. And, worse yet blame their lack of confidence on a school uniform.

Having attended schools with/without uniforms, I can tell you that life was far simpler with a uniform.

Wanna be an individual, do stuff (SGA, clubs, play sports, etc.) in school.

I agree with the author. seeing the mythical school uniform while visiting Japan was very cool. The not so cool part, the constant signs asking people not to take up-skirt pictures of girls in uniform in the subway stations.
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Sakagami Tomoyo



Joined: 06 Dec 2008
Posts: 940
Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:44 pm Reply with quote
AkumaChef wrote:
Oh, I agree that uniforms don't hinder individuality. I never made that claim. I agree with you there. I was talking about your quote "the impression that everyone's differences are accepted and respected. ". We Americans certainly make fun of each other differences on the surface, but that doesn't mean we don't respect them as well. I think you, or the Americans you talked to, may be confusing light-heated teasing with proper bullying. Just as how British (and I assume Aussie) "banter" can look much worse to someone not used to it, American school dynamics is little different.

The problem there is that what looks like lighthearted teasing from one angle looks like proper bullying from another, and the difference is frequently whether or not you're on the receiving end of it. I've taken part in actual banter. I've been bullied. I have done what I thought of as lighthearted teasing at the time, but in retrospect was actually bullying people. If we take a really honest look at things, rather more things than we realise (or are comfortable acknowledging) are actually bullying and seriously disrespectful of people's differences. Every woman, every person of colour, every LGBTQIA person, everyone with a disability who's complained of bullying and discrimination and been told they're being too sensitive, it's just joking around, it's nothing serious? Even if it wasn't intended as being serious, it's serious.

AkumaChef wrote:
I disagree. I don't see a point in a "solution" that doesn't actually correct the problem. There's no point in taking a tiny step unless you're going to see it through to completion, otherwise it's just wasted effort and resources. And in this case, it doesn't even come close to correcting the "bullying" problem. That said, uniforms may well have other benefits that go well beyond the issue of what students bully each other over. I'm not opposed to uniforms in general, I'm just stating that they don't eliminate bullying and "fighting bullying" seems to be a poor justification for having them.

Fighting bullying isn't a specific reason for having uniforms, but one of the minor advantages to them is making a specific kind of bullying less likely. And just because a measure doesn't completely correct a problem, doesn't mean it's a complete waste of effort and resources. No problems are ever completely corrected, but that's no reason not to do what you can about them. Murder still happens, is it a waste of effort and resources to prosecute murderers? People still fall ill and die, is it a waste of effort and resources to have doctors and hospitals?

AkumaChef wrote:
That said, I've heard many references to Japanese students--typically female ones--dealing with inadequate clothing for cold weather. However I suspect that at least some of that has nothing to do with official policy, and rather is students being willing to suffer for their own fashion choices.

I think it's pretty certain that students fashion choices are more of a factor there than any official uniform policy. That said, as far as I know most Japanese school uniforms do mandate skirts for girls and some have restrictions on types of hosiery allowed, so that does narrow available options. On the other hand, Japanese society more broadly does have a very strong attitude of "women and girls should always wear skirts"...

Edit: something else to note, even when there aren't actual uniforms, there's still usually some kind of dress code, and some of those impose some pretty lousy restrictions.
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enurtsol



Joined: 01 May 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:02 am Reply with quote
AkumaChef wrote:

That said, I've heard many references to Japanese students--typically female ones--dealing with inadequate clothing for cold weather. However I suspect that at least some of that has nothing to do with official policy, and rather is students being willing to suffer for their own fashion choices.


It's the way it is:

  • I know that Japanese school uniforms involve very short pleated skirts for the girls and they're not allowed to wear tights because my school (in England) has an exchange program with a Japanese school and I got to know one of the girls last year, who told me how much happier she was in my country because our skirts are longer and the winter isn't nearly so cold.

    She said that in Japan, even if tights were allowed, no girl would wear them because it was a matter of honour to make out that they didn't notice the cold and wanted to dress that way (including shortening the hems or rolling up their skirts) and that this is quite hard for them because not only is it colder outside than here but the classrooms often don't have heating.

    This year we've got another girl over from a different school because the exchange school she was supposed to go to wouldn't take her for some reason. She said that at her school, the girls were allowed to bring blankets to school to cover their legs in the classrooms, and almost all of them used these. She brought one to our school and walked around with it for a couple of days but didn't use it because nobody else had one (not surprisingly!).

    From what the other girl said, about Japanese girls not wanting people to think they notice the cold on their legs, I'm surprised that girls there would use such a thing. Or maybe it's just a fad/fashion at that one school, or for this year?

    Japanese girls still walk the streets after hours wearing revealing short skirts and shorts without even stockings in Hokkaido at 10 degrees below zero, exposing their frozen bright pink legs without a care in the world. It's cultural pride too insane even to be an issue just of school conditions or requirements. Surprised






There is no winter fashion for the girls, short skirts at school in all the seasons, NICE!!!!

Everybody else doing it; can't be the one standing out, disturbing the wa.
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AkumaChef



Joined: 10 Jan 2019
Posts: 821
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:17 am Reply with quote
Sakagami Tomoyo wrote:

The problem there is that what looks like lighthearted teasing from one angle looks like proper bullying from another...

Of course that's true. But I don't think that differs much from Austrialia (with uniforms) and the US (generally without). I didn't quote your entire paragraph, but it sounds exactly like my experiences with US public school. It would seem our experiences are largely similar. My point was that our school systems are probably not so different as you might think, at least when it comes to the bullying angle. I'm not saying it's not serious--I agree completely that it is. I'm saying it's the same everywhere, uniforms or not.

Quote:
Fighting bullying isn't a specific reason for having uniforms, but one of the minor advantages to them is making a specific kind of bullying less likely.

It seems we agree once again. That said, many other people do cite "fighting bullying" to be a major reason to adopt uniforms. All I'm saying is that I disagree and I don't think uniforms do much good in that regard.

Quote:
And just because a measure doesn't completely correct a problem, doesn't mean it's a complete waste of effort and resources. No problems are ever completely corrected, but that's no reason not to do what you can about them. Murder still happens, is it a waste of effort and resources to prosecute murderers? People still fall ill and die, is it a waste of effort and resources to have doctors and hospitals?

In my opinion it all comes down to the amount of good you can do. If a given solution works often enough then it makes sense. Prosecuting murders and medical care make perfect sense because those things work. We can clearly see the effects of certain kinds of law enforcement actions via the crime rate. And likewise we can see the benefits of medical care on people's life expectancy. They may not be perfect, but they work a lot of the time. They are thereby justified because they work well. Trying to fight bullying via uniforms, however, doesn't have much of an impact on bullying at all. It doesn't work well. It's not justified because the efficacy is low. (Note that I am talking about fighting bullying ONLY in this paragraph. Like I said before, I'm not opposed to uniforms and they may well have other reasons for their use, I just don't buy fighting bullying as being the sole justification for their use)

Quote:
I think it's pretty certain that students fashion choices are more of a factor there than any official uniform policy. That said, as far as I know most Japanese school uniforms do mandate skirts for girls and some have restrictions on types of hosiery allowed, so that does narrow available options. On the other hand, Japanese society more broadly does have a very strong attitude of "women and girls should always wear skirts"...

My friend was a rather shy type and she was certainly NOT rolling up her skirt to show more leg, or refusing to wear hosiery for some kind of fashion or cultural reason, so I don't think we can say the problem is 100% related to fashion trends.

@enurtsol
My friend sent me a lot of similar pictures from her time in Japan! Her school had long skirts for winter, which she wore. They went nearly down to her ankles. Yet even that, according to her, was inadequate.
She also mentioned the fact that many schools lacked any sort of heating as well, and her apartment had no built-in heating either: only a single, tiny, ancient kerosene powered heater.
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