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EP. REVIEW: Fruits Basket


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catandmouse



Joined: 02 Mar 2011
Posts: 116
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:53 pm Reply with quote
Ok, I've been reading Fruits Basket Another and possible spoilers for that series spoiler[Hana's brother Megumi is now a teacher a Kaibara High and of course he's the main character's teacher
When he asked Sawa if she met his nephew she said yes and when she asked if his sister's husband was foreign he said something along the lines of "yes, it took him a long time, but he got on a plane to meet her." ]
.I thought it was such a random thing to say until I watched last week's episode and Megumi prayed that there would be someone for his sister even if they had to get on a plane to meet her.
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Clematis



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:28 pm Reply with quote
I had to rewatch this fateful, make-it-or-break-it scene in the 2001 anime, and I can't help feeling like Kyo's voice acting in the first adaptation was so much more heartfelt, so real one could cry; how his voice was filled with pain and anguish yet at the same time you could feel a note of relief underneath as he uttered her name right before transforming into a cat. I have to say I liked the original voice actor more, I feel his voice was simply a better fit to Kyo's character.
Either way, another great episode I enjoyed thoroughly.
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Key
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:17 pm Reply with quote
Clematis wrote:
I had to rewatch this fateful, make-it-or-break-it scene in the 2001 anime, and I can't help feeling like Kyo's voice acting in the first adaptation was so much more heartfelt, so real one could cry; how his voice was filled with pain and anguish yet at the same time you could feel a note of relief underneath as he uttered her name right before transforming into a cat. I have to say I liked the original voice actor more, I feel his voice was simply a better fit to Kyo's character.
Either way, another great episode I enjoyed thoroughly.

I assume you're talking about the Japanese dub? Because Jerry Jewell reprised his role as Kyo in the English dub.

Anyway, I don't think it's just that. Whether this version is more faithful to the source material or not, the whole scene around the revelation of Kyo's true form is starkly lacking compared to the first adaptation. It perhaps does establish a bit better that Kyo is falling for Tohru, but the emotional impact is far lower; the original was, frankly, emotionally brutal, and the extra scenes - Kagura's dialog with Yuki, Akito's appearance, the scene at the grave site - all reinforced much better just how difficult this was for Tohru and how big a deal it actually is. I'm very curious to see Jacob's commentary on this because I found the episode to be maybe the most disappointing one yet.
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Clematis



Joined: 16 Feb 2017
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:25 am Reply with quote
Yea, I was talking about the japanese version of 2001 (https://youtu.be/c0KQCGy93qg?t=163 - sorry for the terrible quality, it's the only one I could find; the voice acting there is truly superb and so real it hurts).
I also agree that the 2019 adaptation cannot hold a candle to the 2001 adaptation of this important chapter or in general, other than perhaps saki's arc, which is a shame, because the soundtrack is really good and captures the essence of the manga.
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Maidenoftheredhand



Joined: 21 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:24 am Reply with quote
I do think in the first series the scene had more impact for me. Of course it was the first time I saw it and here I knew it was coming

But also in the first anime that scene basically lead up to the season finale. The scene is still extremely important here but it’s not the most important moment like it was in the first series (okay I know there was a little more with Akito but that didn’t feel as relevant to me)

Saying other characters should be there like they were in the first series well I disagree. Again it made more sense to have them there in the first one because their stories and relationships with Kyo and Tohru were ending too but that’s not the case here. In the end this scene is very much only about Kyo & Tohru and now we get to see the aftermath which we never got to see with first series.
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Alexis.Anagram



Joined: 26 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:24 am Reply with quote
I think episode 24 pretty much fully encapsulates all of the good and bad choices that have been made with this adaptation thus far, as there are some really strong moments in the set up portion of the episode which start to unravel as the uneven direction undermines the most valuable opportunities for payoff. In particular, somebody needs to tell Ibata to stop trying to Attack on Titan Tohru's heroic efforts: revising Kyo's rejection of Tohru into a full on sucker punch that knocks her ten feet away into a pool of water which is deep enough to fully submerge her body only for her to reappear crouching in the same spot as if it's only ankle deep seconds later doesn't serve that scene's purpose by focusing our attention on the immediate tension between these characters. On the contrary, it has exactly the opposite effect: that sequence broke my immersion so completely I almost had to put the episode on pause just to digest it; I can't for the life of me understand why Takaya would sign off on something like that after complaining about Daichi's style and the liberties he took as a director with the original anime. Meanwhile Ibata's throwing Tohru down rooftops and shit and while I can't in good faith say the manga never goes anywhere like that, we're still a ways off and context is everything. That bit with Tohru and Kyo needed to be air tight, like vacuum sealed to store all the dramatic energy driving their confrontation and the reconciliation that follows, and instead I'm left wondering how the heck Tohru got up that literal cliff face Kyo demolished and turned into his personal sad island. It takes what should have been a fundamentally harrowing and heartbreaking culmination of everything that has passed between these two characters for an entire season and makes it unintentionally hilarious, and if I'm hyperfocused on this it's because it's such a needless foible detracting from an otherwise solid telling of this chapter that gets so much right before that.

Like, yes, you can definitely dramatize Kazuma's confessional moment with Shigure at the brink of twilight using hues of purple and that thrumming musical piece you've been keeping in your back pocket. You can direct the shit out of that exchange of verbal blows between Kazuma and Kyo right before the former sends his adopted son careening off the deep end. I loved all of that and I felt really keyed into the episode's trajectory, and I wanted to see it all brought home on similar terms, only for the denouement to basically consist of the ED track repeatedly interrupting Kyo's extremely personal internal monologue where he experiences a valuable shift in perspective but hey let's not let that get in the way of reminding you Johnnys has a new boy band you should check out. But then when has anybody involved in this adaptation ever paused to consider what an appropriate insert song actually sounds like and when it's OK to use one and how to edit it into a scene.

And yet, the scene where Tohru finally connects with Kyo is really stunningly beautiful in its rendition, and the recognition he shares with her that what he wanted was not deferential "love" as a defense mechanism burying authentic human experience (and oh boy will this story have a lot more to say about the weaponization of unconditional love as praxis) but an acknowledgment of his humanity that validates him as he is, and as he sees himself: wounded, seeping toxicity, maybe even unlovable in many ways. I don't really agree that this episode misses the mark on portraying the difficulty Tohru experiences in pursuing Kyo; instead, I think it restores Kyo as the real focal point, which is as it should be. As tough as it maybe on Tohru to have to struggle her way into Kyo's circle in this moment, she's operating mainly on instinct, whereas Kyo is operating on an entire lifetime of trauma and dejection: this is all exponentially more difficult for him. While Tohru can no longer conceive of a future in the Sohma household that doesn't include Kyo, that's all that Kyo has ever envisioned for himself: his time with her in that house has always been transitory, and having to learn to really trust her and make space for her in his walled off personal domain wasn't part of the deal. Holding himself in stasis, the way we saw during the Valentine's Day episode, is the only way Kyo has ever learned to cope with the concept of change-- the rest of the world may change as it moves through time, but Kyo has been conditioned never to see himself as part of that movement; he is categorically denied, and has learned to deny himself, any opportunity for growth.

That's why Kazuma decides that an all-in approach is necessary, as an effort to spark any measure of self-reflection in Kyo that might get him to engage critically with his internal process. The concern for Shigure (who did hardly a sliver of what Kazuma pulls and still considers himself to have pushed Kyo too far) is not so much that Tohru will fail to accept Kyo, but that even if she does Kyo may reflexively reject her anyway. Which is, of course, exactly what happens, and while it's Tohru's determination that shifts the outcome in his favor, it's ultimately Kyo's willingness to take the hand she's holding out to him that makes the difference. We can't understate Tohru's bravery, and I don't think the show does so, it just recognizes that Kyo's agency is more important in this instance.
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Clematis



Joined: 16 Feb 2017
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:42 am Reply with quote
That was beautiful, Alexis.Anagram. I couldnt agree more. I think the immense personal growth we get to see in Kyo is one of the biggest I've ever seen in any anime/manga. I also never felt as happy for a fictional character as I did for Kyo after hespoiler[ finally finds happiness after a lifetime of struggle and torment.]
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JacobC
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:48 pm Reply with quote
My thoughts on episode 24 are definitely divided in extreme directions, but I'm still finishing up the reviews for episodes 22-23 after CRX and miscellany waylaid with me with other work for the past two weeks. You should see those reviews pop up this evening and episode 24's appear some time tomorrow. Thank you for your patience! I always enjoy reading what you guys have to say.

I will say that if you didn't like episode 24 very much, try rewatching it with the dub version. The writers and actors completely knocked it out of the park and gave me a greater appreciation for all the things it does right.
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Oggers



Joined: 29 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:00 pm Reply with quote
While I do think the part where Kyo hits Tohru hard enough to send her flying and somehow she only got away with that one shoulder injury was too over-the-top to be believable, I did love everything else about this episode. I appreciate that unlike in the 2001 anime, Tohru doesn't need any of the other characters to convince her to go after Kyo. We already know she will, even when she admits that she doesn't know what the right thing to do is since Kyo's true form is so drastically outside of what she can usually handle. This situation really is for her and Kyo alone to deal with.
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Collectonian



Joined: 09 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:10 pm Reply with quote
Agreed. Him throwing her in the water was an odd addition, but otherwise, I loved everything about the episode and much prefer it to the 2001 version that added so much unnecessary and wrong-feeling stuff. Tohru was scared, yes, but she didn't need a bunch of pushing to follow her heart - scared or not, she wasn't about to lose the Kyo she'd come to know.

Akito's being there never felt right in the 2001 version, as it implied it was all done by his planning. spoiler[Kazuma would never agree to that kind of thing, considering his love of Kyo and his intention to fight for his son's right to have a future]

And Yuki's helping Tohru retrieve Kyo also never really felt right. He knew about Kyo's other form, they all do. Only Tohru was in the dark. There was no logical reason that Yuki would have had any impetous to keep Kyo from running away. And their reactions all make much more sense in this version, spoiler[especially as we learn later that they also all know his future and how the zodiac views the cat]
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Key
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:12 pm Reply with quote
JacobC wrote:
I will say that if you didn't like episode 24 very much, try rewatching it with the dub version. The writers and actors completely knocked it out of the park and gave me a greater appreciation for all the things it does right.

I should clarify that my comments were based on the dubbed version. I should also clarify that the English voice acting definitely wasn't part of the problem; they did what they could with the way the content was used, especially Jerry Jewel. (I've thought many times that Kyo was the role that Jerry was born to voice.)
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scarlet_cotton



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:35 am Reply with quote
Here comes the true form arc even though I liked it, I really hated the changes they made when Kyo hurts Tohru, it was even more violent in the anime than what happens in the manga..it so extra? Tohru is just a girl she has no powers why do that to her?!? Or maybe, just maybe... the animators decided to make it that way to known that Kyo is really a beast but the outcome is not so good unless for me. That's the only flaw I found on this episode..nonetheless solid and emotional episode.

Despite Kyo yeeting Tohru, I would like to thank the team for making what Tohru really is here...the look of determination to safe and help someone despite being afraid w/c is really her personality and I couldn't be happier than that.
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KitKat1721



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:32 pm Reply with quote
Just to talk about Episode 24 in general: I love how Tohru tells Kyo she is scared of him. She threw up because of the rotten smell and clearly doesn’t recognize him. He hurts her (honestly to an exaggerated effect that we'll get to later) and yells insults at her to get her to leave. Yet despite all that she chooses to turn around and grab him because she knows if she doesn’t, he may never come back. And Tohru's not about to let Kyo go without a fight because he’s not someone she’s willing to lose.

I don't think Kyo’s mother's actions are really out of the ordinary. She was never abusive or cold, but had a way of downplaying her feelings in a very Tohru way, given how Kyo rejected her hard at her first attempt to get him to return. Kyo needing someone to tell him, "Yes, I am scared of you, but I cannot be without you,” and being able to accept it when someone actually does is just really touching. Saying its okay if you don’t love everything about me, as long as you’re there. Tohru has said many times before, "I want us to stay together,” but this is the first time we’ve seen her really fight for it to that extent. Its almost even selfish, unlike the previous times where she's just been more flexible and understanding to the point of telling Kyo, "its okay if you need to hate Yuki." All of that is just as moving as it was when first reading it.

I also love the understated family reactions to Kyo transforming. Everyone is pretty much looking away from the whole ordeal except Kagura. Yuki is putting himself in a space (next to a window) where he could look if he chose to. The girl we've seen as overly "in love" with Kyo to the point of obsession and claims she would do anything for him, after seeing Tohru run after him, just closes the curtain afterwards. Kyo has talked before about how isolated he is from the Soma clan (he’s not invited to the banquet dinner, isn’t really part of the Zodiac general), but was still seen to be close in a way to those same people. Even closer than Yuki is sometimes if that first ED is anything to go by. But even with all that in mind, Kyo is still something they wish to turn away from when the worst comes to light. They like human Kyo, but that other thing is something we don’t talk about. We ignore, hate, and/or fear that. Kyo’s grown up with the knowledge that no matter how good of terms he’s on with the family, he can't escape that (it is called his “true form” after all).

My biggest gripe is the one everyone else has mentioned for good reason. I did not get why they decided to make Tohru completely fly into a shallow (not shallow?) pond at least a hundred feet away, and be generally fine. Like, not even a broken bone or anything haha. I think just the scratched shoulder is enough reason for Tohru to initially walk away. After that fall, I'm surprised Tohru was able to walk at all. It was a bit off-putting when they overdramatized Tohru's fall off the roof in Ritsu's episode (the one where NO ONE helped her, which I still can't believe when I watch it), and here is no different.

Regarding the dub specifically, I thought it played up the emotions so strongly, and I don't know if its nostalgia + the overall improved acting from 2001 or what, but I was so much more invested, and this was one of the few times this season where I watched the sub first. They completely made that moment at the end for me, and for that, I'm a pretty satisfied customer.
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Tanteikingdomkey
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:09 pm Reply with quote
I would like to bring up a reminder to everyone about how episode 24 was edited since I think people are missing some key things.

Kyo's mom was trying to do her best and working to give him a safe and strictly healthy environment but that doesn't mean she wasn't actually hurting him a TON even if she wasn't outright abusive, she was still setting him up to be exactly how he was at that point more then anyone else.

this is going to take multiple parts to explain so please bear with me. So first off we know that parents of zodiac children either reject or are over protective of their kids. Kyo's dad is obviously one camp while is mom is supposed to be the opposite. So how was kyo's mother over protective.

1 keeping him constantly at home - We are told she kept him at home. This is to keep him safe from the abusive other members of the clan or that she actually is embarrassed by him. In either case, this also gives her control over him to ensure that he does not accidentally have something happen to his beads.

2 constantly checking his charm - This is the weird part of editing in the episode in relation to what is actually said. we are told she checked many times a day on the charm, but every time on screen they are wearing different clothes. either kyo is remembering things wrong or she was basically checking his beads anytime he was out of sight for a noticeable period of time.

But it makes no sense for her to check the charm, you could just look at him and tell him that it was still functioning just fine. the only reason why you would check it would be to inspect them for damage or that it was staying on properly.....But even then it would make no LOGICAL sense to do that even every day let alone multiple times a day. the only reason to do that would be irrational fear/paranoia.

3 telling him obvious lies - There is nothing wrong with you, it's evil magic, you turn back so this is your true form, it's ok, I'm not scared at all. All said while she is holding his charm. You're so adorable I need to keep you all to myself (said in front of the door outside).
there is always shown to be a contrast between her words and her actions in the montage we are shown with her. This is what I think lead to her suicide in a similar way to contrast between the words and actions of the spoiler[horses parents ] lead to their situation.

You had basically a single parent who was loving, paranoid, and controlling trying to put on a facade for their young child who they are terrified of...who ended up killing herself after basically not leaving their child alone for any long stretch of time. That may not be an abusive parent but it is inherently a very toxic parent who was the only person he really had access to.
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thebond&thecurse



Joined: 18 Apr 2019
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:23 pm Reply with quote
Tanteikingdomkey wrote:
That may not be an abusive parent but it is inherently a very toxic parent who was the only person he really had access to.


People are about as dense as they can get when it comes to understanding how messed up Kyo's mom's treatment of him was and why it was so profoundly damaging to Kyo. But considering the degree to which Furuba's story is a symbolic commentary in relationship to real world issues and disability experience in particular, it's not surprising that people are overbearingly sympathetic to the sickening form of "love" that this mother displayed towards her "monster" son. You could toss a stick within the mommy community of kids with disabilities and hit the exact same type of person.

ETA: I also think among the things we learn about Kyo's mom people always forget that incredibly haunting first quote we hear from her as Kazuma is taking off his beads. "It's all right ... I love you, little one. I won't let anyone see you. No one look ... at my child. Don't look. Don't look."
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