Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Fruits Basket
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yuzumei
Posts: 53 |
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I really don't get it. All these guys supposedly in love with Thoru allowed Akito to scratch, insult and threaten her. They just shrug shoulders after the event. What a bunch of weaklings crybabies. Thoru deserve better.
If her friend Arisa was there I can guarantee you that she would have reacted in a very, very different way. Thoru reaction at the beginning of the encounter did not make sense either. An innocent child you love dearly is punched in the face by a grown up rabid man. What a normal human being could have done? Not stand there and ask for an explanation. You grab the kid, take him and yourself out of harms way, go upstairs and ask help from one of the guys. Last edited by yuzumei on Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Oggers
 Posts: 364 Location: Ontario, Canada |
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I get why that may be frustrating to watch, but the episode makes it very clear just how much power Akito holds over the Zodiac members as their "God". The Sohma curse makes it so they can't hate Akito no matter how much abuse Akito puts them through, and despite the fantasy element this does reveal some truth about how in real life, standing up to people who abuse you is much easier said than done a lot of the time. Plus, it's also made apparent that the Zodiac members were willing to visit Akito during their vacation because then Akito would focus on them rather than target Tohru in the first place. Akito showing up and demanding to see Tohru in the middle of the night wasn't really something they accounted for. |
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Gina Szanboti
Posts: 11353 |
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That doesn't seem quite right, as far as I could tell. She took it without permission, as kids sometimes do, which allowed his transformation - she broke it by reflexively clenching her fist in fear. So I wouldn't call that careless because she didn't know its importance when she took it and she was too terrified to think when she broke it. As far as her apology, apologies are always about the person apologizing. I have trouble imagining what a genuine apology that wasn't about the transgressor would even look like. Making your apology about the one(s) you've hurt puts the burden on them to resolve their feelings on your schedule, and that is awful. All you can do is express your regret that you've wronged them, and perhaps what you've learned so that you don't hurt them again (even if they don't feel they were hurt, it doesn't mean you don't owe an apology when you know you were wrong). You can offer an explanation for them to use (or not) to help them find a path to forgive you, as long as it's not expressed as an excuse that suggests they really shouldn't have been hurt by what you said or did, or that they're the problem if they won't forgive you (which is the form it usually takes when you make an apology about the person who was hurt). I think I've tried to explain how I view apology and forgiveness before in the forum, without much success. Probably still not explaining it well enough yet. 
Kagura also did not ask to be comforted - that was Kyo's compassionate response to her confession (of both sin and love). So I can't really dump that at her feet either. I'm not arguing that everything she did was perfectly fine, and I'm still not really a Kagura fan, but again, I think "awful" is far too strong a word to apply here. |
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KitKat1721
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Yeah, a lot of what you said in your post I can agree with. She's not going to jump up to my favorites list anytime soon, but I really appreciate what this episode did for her character. Kagura’s relationship with Kyo is pretty sad to be honest, but it really exemplifies the Cat’s role within the Soma’s in a very personal way. They got along as children fine, but she only played with him because his existence as the pitiful Cat Spirit made her feel better about herself. That’s how early self-hatred and insecurity is ingrained in these children, and its not even always malicious (its not like she said Akito was constantly berating her or anything). And rationalizing and idealizing her love as a way to basically forgive herself for those past thoughts and actions (even if it did turn into something real for her), its all pretty messed up. Kagura has always been a character that’s easy to dislike, and understandably so (with her Rumiko Takahashi-like physical comedy and the foundation of her feelings for Kyo being what they are). But I am glad her feelings are fleshed out in a what that also really contributes to understanding how the Zodiac members not only see themselves, but how they might possibly see Kyo. |
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Netero
Posts: 162 |
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Why is it that ageism is still an OK prejudice? The only real problem with non-abusive age-gap relationships, meaning one where the younger partner is able to make a fully adult assessment of all the implications, is that they could spend many years alone towards the end of their lives. |
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catandmouse
Posts: 213 |
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I was waiting for the Mayu/Hatori episode. Honestly way back when I originally read furuba I never really cared for the Hatori/Kana relationship. Maybe I was too harsh on Kana. Given, having your boyfriend be injured in front of you for loving you can be traumatic, especially if the one doing the traumatizing is Akito, but Kana is not part of the Sohma’s inner circle, she could have walked away of Akito’d abuse. Anyway, that’s all in the past. I enjoyed Mayu and Hatori’s romance better. I feel she’s a stronger character to be able to deal with all the baggage Hatori carries around.
Also spoiler[ they do get their happy ending. In Fruits Basket Another is shows they have a college age daughter named Kinu. She’s the guardian of Tohru and Kyo’s oldest son as well as Yuki’s kid since they live in the old house from furuba whole going to Kaibara High School. Also she’s the only one that can control Ayame and Mine’s daughter Hibika, just like Hatori with Ayame. ] |
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NeedMoreCats
 Subscriber Posts: 319 Location: Westchester, NY |
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I don’t think the age gap is the issue, per se. It’s the life-stage gap that that particular age gap encompasses. High schooler vs adult. There’s an inherent imbalance of power there, ripe for potential abuse (not to imply that Kureno is in any way an abuser). |
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Netero
Posts: 162 |
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Of course that's a possibility, which is why I qualified my statement to specifically exclude abusive relationships. But it can work out. spoiler[Just ask Tohru.] |
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Spastic Minnow
Bargain Hunter Exempt from Grammar Rules  Posts: 4609 Location: Gainesville, FL |
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Yes, you have to realize just how much they are bound by the curse/bond. I'd even go so far as saying it determines other things as well. Kyo has trained in martial arts throughout childhood and continues getting better, yet he CANNOT beat Yuki. Is that really because Yuki is such a natural? Or, is it because it is predetermined through the curse that he is unable to beat Yuki? If they were able to go against him... well, keep pondering that one. |
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Alexis.Anagram
 Posts: 278 Location: Mishopshno |
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One of the things that bothers me about how Kagura is characterized within the fandom (and some of this can be laid at the feet of the source material itself for its portrayal of her) is the way in which she often seems to be denied the benefit of the doubt which is afforded to other characters (especially the boys) in terms of their behaviors and their relationship dynamics-- even when they directly mirror or underscore the intent driving her arc. It feels like the comedic mode which serves, superficially, as the lynchpin for most of her appearances is too frequently taken at face value, in a way that distances her character analysis from the actual context which imbues it with meaning and instead singles her out as an especially egregious shojo archetype of the sort which necessitates that constant YMMV disclaimer. At a glance, the presentation of her arc at times leans into this more limited reading; she's introduced as a single-mindedly lovestruck rival for one of Tohru's predictable relationship routes, and spends most of her appearances up until her most recent episode having the meaning between the lines of her actions colored in by other characters who don't necessarily have the whole picture; it isn't until this entry that she's offered the narrative space to qualify her true feelings on her own terms, and I can understand why for some folks that might ring as too little too late. On the other hand, I'd assert that Kagura's characterization has always been right in line with the narrative patterning on which this series operates, drawing on genre tropes for the immediacy of their impact and the comfort that comes with the ease of their recognition, but imbuing them with enough subtext to effectively reframe what they mean within the context of this particular story and layering the architecture of the narrative as a whole. It's meaningful that Kagura enters the story smashing her fists through doors (and, sadly, Kyo's face) in pursuit of love because of the resemblance it bears to a humorous trope derived from many romantic manga, exaggerated here both for comedic effect and to convey the extent her emotions. But it's more meaningful because of how it slots in with what we learn about the Sohma children and how many of them learn to use their fists to communicate in place of words, and especially because of how true this appears to be for Kyo himself. As Jacob pointed out in his review of Kagura's introductory episode, one of the first full glimmers of insight we (through Tohru) get into Kyo as a person is the revelation that he feels far more comfortable sparring or making physical gestures to provide an outward estimation for where he is emotionally than he is trying to articulate his often jumbled up state of mind with any exactness; this is regularly underscored in his interactions with other characters, from his flirtatious fist bumps on Tohru's forehead, to the way he channels his anger and rage at Yuki by throwing punches, to the first move he makes in trying to reconcile his whirlwind of emotions towards his Master by sharing a mutual bout with him on the bridge (so that Tohru, the woman who fought for him, could see first hand no less). It shouldn't be any wonder, then, that Kagura, who trained in the same dojo with him, learned to (try and) communicate with Kyo in the language that he knows best, applying a kind of physicality that by all indications was well suited to her from childhood as well. Our attention is centered on the way she uses her fists, but Kagura is much more strategic than just that-- she clings, she drags him around, she puts herself right inside his personal space in a way she knows as well as we do is uncomfortable for him, but which is also quite likely the only way she can get Kyo to react to her at all. That's not an excuse for her behavior, nor do I think Takaya intends it as such; but it's a qualification that this is the reality the Zodiacs within the Sohma family face, particularly the youth. I think Shigure himself says it, establishing one of the series' earliest and most understated theses: these kids can't connect with other people easily, and even the relationships formed internally can be fraught. So, they learn to isolate, internalize the shame over their situation, and practice methods of communication that are unrefined and antisocial and, sometimes, deeply pathological. That's obvious enough and as the story progresses and more of their personal histories come to light, that conceit turns central. What I notice with the reception of Kagura's character specifically, though, is that even though this is clearly the lens through which she's intended to be viewed as things advance (there's a reason she's present for the climax of the First Act, after all), there almost seems to be a resistance to categorizing or recognizing her personal dynamic along these lines, even when the narrative more or less spells it out. For instance, when Hatsuharu is introduced and his Dark personality comes out, Tohru immediately makes a suggestive reference to Kagura's personality type and that's carried symbolically in both the way Haru immediately assaults Kyo with no warning, uses verbal strong-arming to try and get his way, and pursues Yuki in an ostentatiously romantic fashion-- and yet, I've rarely seen Haru being defined as a character within the fandom by those problematic behavioral traits in the way that Kagura seems to be by hers. By that same token, Kyo is by far the most physically aggressive character in the series, and his bouts with Yuki are regularly played for comedy, and yet the dynamic between them is typically regarded as part of the basic framework for the story, not something "outdated" or of particular issue. I'm not saying it's not worth discussing and deconstructing the authorial intent and messaging behind the brand of comedy attributed to Kagura's role within the story, but I am saying that there is a notably gendered element to this in that all of these other characters who get in fights and swing their fists as a substitute for talking through their feelings are by and large engaging in conventionally masculine modes of dialogue: asserting their strength, advancing their ideals, making known how angry and/or vulnerable they are. By fighting, they're conveying the kinds of things we've been conditioned to expect men to fight about-- but Kagura does something different. She uses her martial arts training to weaponize an experience of love that is distinctively feminine and draws on her experience of falling in love with a man, as a woman. And, I'm just saying, I think that we as a society have a tendency to side-eye those kinds of experiences as being basically supercilious, not deep or deserving of real reflection-- of course Kagura is just there for the physical comedy bit! Her lovey-dovey emotions for Kyo can't be *real*, and it's not like she has an actual chance with him anyway, not with main character Tohru standing by! I think this is honestly a large part of why Kagura gets written off as an "outdated" archetype comparative to venerated heartthrobs like Kyo, Yuki and Haru: it's just much easier for female archetypes to fall out of favor in pop culture, and to be replaced with whatever the male gaze has wandered towards now. And that's why I really love what Takaya does with Kagura's arc in her big episode, and why I think it speaks to her extremely deft hand when it comes to character writing. She turns all of that on its head and explicitly condemns the notion that women in stories should exist to fulfill any neat sort of reading or categorization, without being patronizing or saccharine about it (she'll do more of this with Motoko and, uhhh, certain other characters, down the line). Yes, Kagura never had a chance with Kyo, but that's not because of Tohru, nor is it a factor of how *real* her love for Kyo actually is. Instead we get an entry that is entirely about their history together and which makes sense of exactly why both of them are where they are in their relationship; one in which Tohru doesn't even enter the picture, and one in which it's possible for Kagura to truly love Kyo, and for him to not love her back anyway. One in which she gets to carry the burden of that heartache because she's finally reached a point where she feels fully formed enough as a person to do it; and in which both of them get to clearly delineate where they stand with one another, in the most direct and uncompromised conversation the two of them have probably ever had. Like Gina Szanboti, I don't see this moment as being one-sided in its dynamic at all: Kyo is an active participant who gets to say exactly what he needs and wants to say, in exactly the way he wants to do it, and Kagura does likewise. The way he comforts her at the end is indicative of how his physical gestures towards others are developing in a more healthy direction-- he's less liable to lash out at others, and is instead practicing a quiet acceptance of how the feelings and expressions of others are not always going to align with his own. Kagura doesn't ask him for that "thank you" (at least, not outwardly), but she's able to accept it without trying to twist it to mean something it doesn't, or fabricate a reason to continue forcing her feelings on him. It's a marked development for two characters who fell into directly contradictory patterns of codependency: Kagura seeking a means to validate her personhood by forcing forgiveness from someone who never needed to forgive her, and Kyo by refusing to confront the substance of what had occurred between them and instead relying on passive aggressive deflections designed to make Kagura feel bad about herself instead of asserting his own needs and intentions in a serious way. It's a method of resolving this character tangent which is keen in its insights on how people get locked in these cycles of conflict within their relationships, and I think there's a lot more to it than meets the eye given just how much this story has to say about the ways that notions of "love" can be weaponized, and specifically how men and women are often socially positioned to practice violence (both physical and psychological) in ways both distinct and intersecting.
I was going to say, the Kureno/Arisa romance isn't even necessarily the "squickiest" relationship in this series! Haha. And certainly not the worst example of an age-gap dynamic you can find in shojo. That doesn't mean it should be off the table, though; in order to buy into a romance, audiences typically have to be given a reason to view it as plausible in the first place (that or a convincing reason to suspend disbelief), so if the difference in age here strikes a note of skepticism for some, it's up to the story to do the heavy lifting to lend it a more believable form. For me at least, it works because Ueno seems like the type who totally would be over her uber hormonal peer-group and looking for someone with that simple Tohru charm-- on the other hand, I super wish Takaya had left her to be gay with a nice girl, like, ugh, I'm not even really here for the romance, but where are my gay endgames. Oh, and the Mayu episode was so good! The execution was excellent on all fronts: fantastic pacing, some really gorgeous and fluid animation, and yes I definitely had that experience of being older now and thinking, "Oh joy this hurts me in all sorts of ways it didn't the first time I read the manga!" 
I also love the little narrative detour of giving an epilogue mid-series like that. Takaya doesn't want us to wonder if the characters will be OK, she wants us to know that good things are ahead for them. It's a bold move, but also a confident one, giving us a peek of her hand so we know one of the cards, even as she's holding so many close to her chest. It speaks to how precise she is in telling her story-- that she knows exactly where this is going. It's one of the reasons I occasionally get nervous when pieces are shown out of order; obviously any adaptation has to make adjustments here and there, but Furuba is such a tightly woven tale (particularly in its latter parts) that I am always praying, "Please don't let the dramatic impact be lessened!" Haha. |
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NeedMoreCats
Subscriber Posts: 319 Location: Westchester, NY |
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I completely agree with this. And I also think that the female audience often ends up being complicit, and that’s behavior we can change.
Yeah, I really loved Mayu’s (which keeps autocorrecting to Maui) episode, too. Hatori tends to be so reserved, she’s the perfect foil for him. |
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Clematis
Posts: 66 |
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@Alexis.Anagram, that was beautiful. Thank you for that wonderful, deeply insightful analysis.
I also loved Mayu's episode. She and Hatori were made for each other. |
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Gina Szanboti
Posts: 11353 |
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Thank you for a well-reasoned analysis and for reminding me that Kagura was not the only one in that scene who needed to apologize. But I think thanking and comforting her and letting her cry her heart out in his arms is as close as he's going to get to one. It seemed to be enough for her though.
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KitKat1721
Posts: 953 |
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This is so honestly so true. While Kagura was never one of my top favorites, I always really liked what they did with her character, and it is unfortunate than nowadays she's mostly written off as outdated when there does seem to be a lot of reason for introducing and writing her the way she is. While I say she's "easy to dislike," I mostly mean for the fandom as whole, or at least how I've presumed the fandom's opinion towards her (and specifically why) over the years. |
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catandmouse
Posts: 213 |
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I can’t agree with the reviewer in that Kakeru is like Kyo minus the angst and drama. If Kakeru draws any parallel to any zodiac member that would have to be Ayame, and I believe Yuki pointed that out during Kakeru’s intro.
As far as the rest of the student council members just introduced this episode, Kimi is spoiler[meant to be vapid and shallow. The author decidedly drew her that way.] And Naohito has a reason to be antagonistic towards Yuki.spoiler[ It may be a shallow reason, but later you find out he has a crush on Motoko.]. they are probably the least developed, but they serve a function. Heck, even Takei makes mention of why he chose those specific colorful characters to serve in the student council with Yuki. Going back to Kakeru and Machi, at some point Kakeru’s personality trait of speaking whatever comes to mind whenever becomes an important plot point spoiler[you find out his girlfriend’s dad was the driver of the car that hit Kyoko and that Kakeru went to yell at Tohru for “being a drama queen” (I’m paraphrasing) During her mom’s funeral because she wasn’t the only one who lost someone in that accident.] And Machi, well spoiler[ she becomes Yuki’s love interest]. Overall, I think the relationship that develops between Kakeru and Yuki is one that parallels what could have been Yuki and Ayame’s relationship if Ayame hadn’t pushed Yuki away when he was a child. As for the Kagura comments, I’m not a fan and never will be, and domestic violence is never funny in real life, but....and this is a big but....from the beginning Kyo has been presented as a character that can take tons of Over the top abuse. When he fights with Yuki and he gets thrown into the pond, Shigure makes an off handed comment not about Kyo’s safety, but about the house, or when Hatsuharu is introduced and he trips Kyo making him face plant, Haru turns to the camera and says something along the lines of “don’t try this at home” and either he or Yuki comment on how only probably Kyo can survive that. (I might be getting my anecdotes wrong time wise, but I am sure they were said referring Kyo). They even joke about Kyo spending four months living in the mountains fighting bears. Who seriously can survive a fight with a bear? My point being that maybe we shouldn’t take Kagura’s violence towards Kyo at face value, because even though it’s shown to be very over the top and can in actually hurt someone, in The context of the story she was never intending on hurting him. That is made obvious when the author tones down Kagura to be serious. I don’t think Kagura quite encompasses the “shrill b*tch” archetype of other anime characters because she had the sense to walk away when she Realized her love would never reach Kyo and she also toned down the physical violence towards him once she got serious about him. I’m not defending her, but really, people freak out over her physical abuse of Kyo, when in reality what I think What the author was trying to point out was her emotional abuse towards him, which seems to be overlooked due to the overt violence she dishes the guy. She’s kinda like Tohru In the sense that just like Tohru always wants to seem cheerful, a Kagura being more effusive shows her “cheeriness” with over the top violence towards the one she likes. It’s unpleasant to see, but I don’t think the author ever intended her overly violent actions towards Kyo to be taken at face value. |
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