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REVIEW: Umineko When They Cry Episode 8: Twilight of the Golden Witch GN 19


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yurigasaki



Joined: 06 Apr 2015
Posts: 88
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 11:42 am Reply with quote
The fact that you're calling the involvement of witches and magic "nonsense" this deep into the story really makes me worry.
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grooven



Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Posts: 1330
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 12:22 pm Reply with quote
I do recall in the game playing this part and finding it a slog to get through, meaning the party at the house. It went on way too long. Though, the later parts of this episode were great.

I'm sad to see we didn't see the reviewer's reaction to episode 7 where lots of the big answers come up. But I do look forward to how she'll like the ending.
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Mr. Dent



Joined: 06 Jul 2014
Posts: 67
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 12:44 pm Reply with quote
Uh, you seem to have some mistaken assumptions about what this arc is... There is a mystery in this arc, but it's sole purpose is to forward the fantasy storyline. Episode 7 is really the climax for the over-arching mystery, and while we do get explicit backstory and answers in this arc, it's by no means the focal point. Episode 8 is less about solving the mysteries once and for all, and way more about resolving character arcs and ongoing conflicts. It's a very emotional, cathartic arc for most fans, but if you aren't invested in the Ushiromiya family or in the magical characters, you probably won't like this arc... The Witches and demons are here to stay. They're not set dressing, they're as much main characters as the family by this point in the story.
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Princess_Irene



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 1735
Location: The castle beyond the Goblin City
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 12:47 pm Reply with quote
yurigasaki wrote:
The fact that you're calling the involvement of witches and magic "nonsense" this deep into the story really makes me worry.


Laughing It was an ill-considered word choice. I don't mean that they're actual nonsense - I still think they're psychological constructs of some sort, possibly indicating the unreliability of Battler (and Beatrice) as narrators, or maybe indicative of some sort of mental illness. I'm more frustrated with the way Ryukishi07 uses them in this volume.

I fully expect to be back on board this train with the next omnibus. This one just used a lot of my least favorite of his writing techniques.

Grooven, didn't I review the previous arc? I thought I'd hit all the volumes released...but it's been a tough (school) year, and I may be losing my mind.
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#aneonfoxtribute



Joined: 18 May 2019
Posts: 1
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 3:57 pm Reply with quote
I'm sorry, but I take so much issue with this review. First, and most importantly: Ignoring the magic and what the magic means is utter nonsense. You call the magic nonsense numerous times through the review, and all that tells me is, and I do not mean this as an insult, that you have failed to even attempt to understand Umineko. You cannot merely brush off the fantasy as nonsense and be done with it. Perhaps in earlier Episodes that is acceptable, but the farther you get in the story, the less acceptable it becomes. It's also very telling that you have skipped Episode 7, as you think that this episode is the "fair play mystery", along with not completely understanding what the fantasy means.

On the topic of that fair play mystery comment, I also take massive issue with that because it assumes that the rest of the story is NOT a fair play mystery, which is patently incorrect. Ryukishi is unique in that he obscures the mystery with a layer of fantasy and magic, but to take it a step further and say that because of this, the story is NOT a fair play mystery makes no sense. It absolutely is, just because Ryukishi is unconventional in how he does it does not make it false.

Next up, the comment on Ryukishi "trolling" readers with the "witch nonsense". No, this Episode is meant to be the conclusion of the overarching story with the fantasy characters. Episode 7 was the conclusion of the mystery. This does not conclude any parts of the mystery, this concludes the actual story that was told with the fantasy characters. And as a result of that, the statement that he is "needlessly throwing supernatural characters in our face" is also false. This is a conclusion of their story. It would be horrendous writing to make the supernatural characters just not appear in this conclusion.

There is a saying said numerous times through the series. "Without love, it cannot be seen". Your statement of Battler's "rosy colored view of the Ushiromiya family pulling you out of the story" tells me that you have no love and that the fundamental rule of the story is being ignored. Merely writing off what Battler shows Ange as him "clearly making things up" goes against this statement. Yes, what Battler shows Ange is has an ambiguous amount of truth and whether or not you believe what he shows her is entirely up to you. But to merely write it off immediately as nonsense without even trying to consider whether or not it is accurate (which I have not seen any evidence that you have done so) is against the spirit of the series.

As a fan of Umineko, I have myriad issues with this review. I feel it's clear that you have not understood this series in the slightest (and I do not mean this as an insult by any means) and I am certain that with the views you have presented in this one review, you will not like the final volume.
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yurigasaki



Joined: 06 Apr 2015
Posts: 88
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 4:04 pm Reply with quote
#aneonfoxtribute wrote:
As a fan of Umineko, I have myriad issues with this review. I feel it's clear that you have not understood this series in the slightest (and I do not mean this as an insult by any means) and I am certain that with the views you have presented in this one review, you will not like the final volume.


Pretty much my exact thoughts and feelings. It definitely feels like Rebecca is reading story with the attitude of someone wanting to "win" rather than properly engaging with the narrative. I especially take issue with her characterizing Ryukishi as an egocentric troll any time the story gets even slightly unconventional with its presentation – that's a really Yikes read of him as a person that absolutely doesn't hold up.
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BlueAlf



Joined: 02 Jan 2017
Posts: 704
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 4:31 pm Reply with quote
Mr. Dent wrote:
Episode 8 is less about solving the mysteries once and for all, and way more about resolving character arcs and ongoing conflicts. It's a very emotional, cathartic arc for most fans, but if you aren't invested in the Ushiromiya family or in the magical characters, you probably won't like this arc...


To be fair, playing the VN, it took me awhile to figure this out too. I agree the beginning parts of episode 8 felt like a slog. I wasn't sure what to make of the magical beings. Even until the end of episode 7, they seemed like elaborate set pieces meant to provide distractions.

Only after I decided to accept the realness of the fantasy side (I really liked the idea of the characters getting married), I realized episode 8 was more about emotionally coping with the truth rather than figuring it out.

That realization really hit me hard.
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Oggers



Joined: 29 Nov 2017
Posts: 79
Location: Ontario, Canada
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 8:45 pm Reply with quote
Geez, that cover...I'd forgotten how much of Ange's butt it shows off.

But yeah, I'd have to agree with the other commenters here. It isn't a good mindset to completely dismiss the fantasy characters as "nonsense", especially this late into the story. Admittedly I'm not a huge fan of most of the fantasy characters, but over time I've come to better understand their importance to Umineko's narrative.
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Tanteikingdomkey
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Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 1836
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 8:58 pm Reply with quote
Yay, hate to also pile on but , yay you are missing the point of the story are on the way to getting really disappointed with this ending.

First off yes there is a review for volumes 2 and 3 but it is odd, it seems like very few people saw it. That said you maybe didn't understand bernkastel at the end of the last episode?
animenewsnetwork.com/review/umineko-when-they-cry-episode-7/requiem-of-the-golden-witch-volumes-2-3/.141032

The first half episode 8 is rather slow however I absolutely agree it is another case where ryukishi has some pacing issues I think.

I do think that if you cant figure why he "trolls" the audience, then you are to some aspect failing to understand the authorial intent, and what he is hoping to come across in the series.

I would really love answer to the question of the mystery of the kickstarter and what the heck is going on with it.
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maximilianjenus



Joined: 29 Apr 2013
Posts: 1794
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 9:24 pm Reply with quote
Princess_Irene wrote:

Grooven, didn't I review the previous arc? I thought I'd hit all the volumes released...but it's been a tough (school) year, and I may be losing my mind.

for some reason it did not get publisehd in teh front page, I ahd to dig for them, ahppened once before but I don't remember for which arc,.

Mr. Dent wrote:
The Witches and demons are here to stay. They're not set dressing, they're as much main characters as the family by this point in the story.

like the stakes being real and going to the kakegurui highschool.

grooven wrote:
I'm sad to see we didn't see the reviewer's reaction to episode 7 where lots of the big answers come up. But I do look forward to how she'll like the ending.

animenewsnetwork.com/review/umineko-when-they-cry-episode-7/requiem-of-the-golden-witch-volume-1/gn-16/.128491
animenewsnetwork.com/review/umineko-when-they-cry-episode-7/requiem-of-the-golden-witch-volumes-2-3/.141032
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Mr. Dent



Joined: 06 Jul 2014
Posts: 67
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 9:44 pm Reply with quote
Guys, I know we're all Umineko fans here in this forum and I think we were all kind of hurt by how Rebecca called the fantasy characters nonsense, but the amount of hate Rebecca's getting slammed with right now is ridiculous and uncalled for. Rebecca definitely did read and review Episode 7, and she absolutely knows who Beatrice is and what the solutions to the murders are by now. I think when she's talking about answers, she means answers to what the witches are and just what is actually happening- which, like, she WILL get in this arc.

It's easy for us to look back having played the game to know everything the story is doing, but this is Rebecca's first time and her opinions are valid, even if we disagree or have more knowledge about the story's lore and characters. She's literally just started Episode 8, there's a great big chance she will change her mind. She has before. In her initial reviews of Ep6, she called the love trials fluff and a distraction, but once she read the last volumes of that arc she changed her mind and admitted she misunderstood their importance.

Even if she doesn't eventually come around to this arc, that's still her opinion and feeling sad she didn't connect to the story like we did isn't going to solve anything. There's a reason Umineko has such a diehard, loyal following, but there's also a reason it's not mainstream like previous WTC games. Umineko isn't going to stand out to everyone, and that's okay.
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ThatGuyWhoLikesThings



Joined: 04 Jul 2013
Posts: 572
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2019 11:30 pm Reply with quote
Yeah, I do believe Rebecca's approach to Umineko has been fundamentally misguided, and has made a few rather major mistakes in analyzing it and Ryukishi's supposed intent when writing the series, but I'm not gonna harp on her for it. It's a fact that Umineko and it's method of storytelling can be very unconventional, so yelling at someone for "not getting it" isn't gonna help anyone and will in fact just turn them away from wanting to understand it at all.

That being said, it is established multiple times within the story, at least as far back as EP4, that you have to be willing to look at the narrative being presented at multiple angles, otherwise you will have a very lopsided and misinformed view of the story. Dismissing the fantasy elements as irrelevant nonsense, *or* making little to no effort to solve the mystery, will end up making it very difficult for you to engage, both on an emotional and intellectual level. Because more than anything, more than being a fantasy, more than even being a mystery, Umineko is at it's core a love story that heavily incorporates elements from both sides in order to add depth to the characters and the themes it wants to convey to the reader.

As someone who's seen aneonfoxtribute around on a few sites, I know that they have a tendency to be rather argumentative and hot-headed, even abrasive occasionally, at times like this, so I wouldn't take it personally.

Also I should mention that in the VN at least, Beatrice does mention offhand in EP2 that Knox's rules do indeed apply to the story. Not sure if that's established in the manga.
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sirom84



Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 14
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 3:47 am Reply with quote
I'm here only because of thumbnail....
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CosmicStar



Joined: 19 May 2019
Posts: 1
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 9:06 am Reply with quote
Oggers wrote:
Geez, that cover...I'd forgotten how much of Ange's butt it shows off.

But yeah, I'd have to agree with the other commenters here. It isn't a good mindset to completely dismiss the fantasy characters as "nonsense", especially this late into the story. Admittedly I'm not a huge fan of most of the fantasy characters, but over time I've come to better understand their importance to Umineko's narrative.


While i'm not too fond of lewd stuff, I can't deny that that is one of the most perfect asses I've seen in my time as a weeb.
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maximilianjenus



Joined: 29 Apr 2013
Posts: 1794
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 12:29 pm Reply with quote
As a "Live VN reader" meanign i was reading it waws it was being released; I remember feeling as annoyed as irene when I first read it; especially with the parts of the arc that we are shown then; the reactions to her review might be fair if she had read the whole arc and still ahd the same opinion . I still think the given score was a bit too low, should be Bs not Cs.
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