Forum - View topic
INTEREST: IGN: Catherine: Full Body Game's English Release Changes Deadname Credits


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
FinalVentCard



Joined: 28 Oct 2018
Posts: 70
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 7:26 pm Reply with quote
Yeah, I'm glad Atlus made this change.

I know a lot of non-binary people, and outright deadnaming in a game is just not cool.

So many people on this website are just antsy for the opportunity to find out what makes others feel deeply unsettled and hurt and do exactly that, but not get called out for being rude jerks. Grow up, dudes.

Also: I know a trans-woman named Erica. Every time I think back to Erica in Catherine getting deadnamed, I cringe because the Erica I know probably goes through that a lot.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
El Hermano



Joined: 24 Feb 2019
Posts: 135
Location: Texas
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 7:33 pm Reply with quote
This is actually a pretty big change. They're going to have to rewrite tons of dialog and change specific plot points in order to accommodate this censorship. They'll have to completely rewrite scenes like Toby lamenting he lost his virginity to Erica and he wants it back. And the animation for the scene makes it pretty clear Toby is disgusted with Erica, so they'll either have to write around that animation or go the extra length and re-animate it themselves or ask Atlus Japan to do it. Lore-wise is they'll also have to write around how spoiler[only men are having the nightmares, which also includes Erica since they're biologically male] since that will also no doubt offend people.

Atlus USA is going to have to fully commit to the bit and go all in because just a few dialog changes isn't going to cut it and will just lead to plot holes and inconsistent writing. But that's usually par for the course for these kinds of decisions and changes.

Stelman257 wrote:
Times have changed in society. Making jokes about trans people, the way they look or insulting their choice to be trans isn't something you do anymore. Back in the day even 4kids dubs used to make fun of them (Dr. Crowler in YuGiOh GX especially) because that's how harmless many people thought the jokes were. But society, and standards and values in society, change.
It's like how many early era cartoons used to be incredibly racist, or promote slavery. Cartoons like this don't get made anymore, simple as that. And if they're remade or aired again, racist things get changed. The original items, and the history of them, are left untouched. AtlusUSA isn't patching the original Catherine, that game is a product of its time, and is how it is.

Saying you find it "pointless", or "offensive" that they would change this seems inane to me. Like someone clinging to the past, asking the world to never change and grow, even though we're always learning and growing. And those of you that actually cancel your preorder over something as little as this, I think are the ones who need to step back and seriously take a good look at what you actually value in life.


But there's still plenty of media that have the content you're talking about. There has not been some universal ban or unanimous decision to not make this type of media like you're saying anymore.

But most importantly there's a huge difference between a creator changing their own work to reflect 'modern times' and a third party doing it. Because all the staff behind Catherine Full Body felt it was still fine to release in 2019 just the way it was. It's only a few select people that's trying to speak on the behalf of everyone that's saying otherwise.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Aphasial
Subscriber<br>Exempt from Grammar rulesSubscriber
Exempt from Grammar rules


Joined: 08 Aug 2010
Posts: 113
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 7:45 pm Reply with quote
El Hermano wrote:
But most importantly there's a huge difference between a creator changing their own work to reflect 'modern times' and a third party doing it. Because all the staff behind Catherine Full Body felt it was still fine to release in 2019 just the way it was. It's only a few select people that's trying to speak on the behalf of everyone that's saying otherwise.


This is a critical point.

Of course, the original artist making a later change (covering up, removing insults or commentary, whatever) could still be due to censorship... which is why we call it "self-censorship." If the original author revises their output due to threats, overt or not, legal or not, it's fair to call it sociological censorship even if it wasn't the government goon squad coming.

But in this case, the original artist(s) weren't involved; it was people coming later responding not to socially-defined terms ("obscenity" is something a judge can flag you for, for example), but responding to angry Tweets.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger ICQ Number
GNPixie



Joined: 25 Jul 2018
Posts: 56
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 8:35 pm Reply with quote
Vincent and his friends outside of Toby (who's innocent as they come) are all just crappy so the all the lines they said in the original make sense. ****** people are a thing. Anyway; the shoehorning of additional stuff in addition to all this just makes the original release the superior product anyway. It's like P4 vs P4G tbqh.

Stelman257 wrote:
Times have changed in society. Making jokes about trans people, the way they look or insulting their choice to be trans isn't something you do anymore. Back in the day even 4kids dubs used to make fun of them (Dr. Crowler in YuGiOh GX especially) because that's how harmless many people thought the jokes were. But society, and standards and values in society, change.


How the hell is Crowler/Chronos a joke about trans people? At most, his accent might've been a little off putting (Its probably a hilarious over the top french accent) but I mean, it's GX. It's DINO DNA GX with fake accents all around like Jim's faux Australian or Jessie's weird case of Texan-British hybrid. If anything, they messed up with the actual spoiler[intersex character] the show got as one of the best villains in the series, both with the animated version getting censored as well as the actual card art.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Watanabefan



Joined: 02 Oct 2017
Posts: 82
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 8:54 pm Reply with quote
El Hermano wrote:

But there's still plenty of media that have the content you're talking about. There has not been some universal ban or unanimous decision to not make this type of media like you're saying anymore.


Depends which side of the ocean you're talking about. Japan, definitely. The country is only just recently beginning to catch up with a lot of Western countries when it comes to LGBT rights (the increased scrutiny caused by the upcoming Olympics has been viewed by many as lighting a fire and getting companies to start providing more benefits for people in same-sex partnerships).

But in the U.S., making fun of trans people has recently become way less acceptable in the media, sans works that deliberately try to push the envelope with what they can get away with like South Park. So it's a topic that is likely going to start coming up increasingly when it comes to Japanese media that gets a U.S. release. But that's pretty much nothing new since there are similar concerns that come into play for other things that are considered fine in Japan that are viewed a bit more skeptically in the U.S.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AmpersandsUnited



Joined: 22 Mar 2012
Posts: 199
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 9:15 pm Reply with quote
GNPixie wrote:
How the hell is Crowler/Chronos a joke about trans people? At most, his accent might've been a little off putting (Its probably a hilarious over the top french accent) but I mean, it's GX. It's DINO DNA GX with fake accents all around like Jim's faux Australian or Jessie's weird case of Texan-British hybrid. If anything, they messed up with the actual spoiler[intersex character] the show got as one of the best villains in the series, both with the animated version getting censored as well as the actual card art.


They did mention 4Kids, so maybe 4Kids did something that wasn't in the original version. I never watched the dub for GX, however 4Kids did do something like that for the dub of Pocket Monsters. They had a few jokes suggesting Team Rocket were gay in the American dub, which led to widespread misinformation of people thinking Team Rocket were gay, which was not helped by the fact Americans didn't understand Japan's cross-dressing comedy culture at the time so seeing them crossdress for disguises just led to more people thinking they were gay, and maybe the reason 4Kids did it in the first place. There are people who still think they're gay to this day because of that really terrible and inaccurate American localization despite the characters showing attraction to people of the opposite sex numerous times throughout the series.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mad_Scientist
Moderator


Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 2968
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 9:37 pm Reply with quote
Ashabel wrote:
configspace wrote:
And so several people who complained and bitched revealed that they still won't be buying the game because obviously the characters were originally like that and by buying, they'd be supporting the original Japanese devs.
https://twitter.com/mombot/status/1131734359843590144
Good job for shooting yourself in the foot, Atlus


I sincerely hope you realize exactly how you come off when you take a tweet that literally says "I couldn't care less about this game and was never going to buy it, but hey, I heard they changed it to be less bigoted and that's a nice thing of them to do." and falsely present it as "I actively campaigned to see that Atlus changes this game's contents, but still won't buy it after the change because of how it originally was".


They're quoting a tweet by an infamous harasser, liar, and anti-trans bigot, so pretty sure they do know and just don't care.

TasteyCookie wrote:
More pointless censorship to the minority whining on Twitter. And yes it is censorship. No one cares about the name change in the credits, it's the rewriting of the characters and dialog and ending so that it "doesn't offend people" who are still going to find ways to be offended anyways. Oh well, not going to buy the game then. Too bad you don't want our money Atlus, cancelling my pre-order. Keep your outside politics out of games, it's not going to help anyone.


Actually people WOULD care about changing the name in the credits, because the anti-trans crowd complain about any attempt to be decent to trans people no matter how mild. You can bring in your absurd dog whistles about "outside politics" into this thread, but we all know what that actually means. Any attempt to be decent to trans folks, no matter how tiny, would upset you.

TasteyCookie wrote:
[ Giving fringe outrage mobs what they want gives you the likes of crazy such as what's happening in Alabama/Missouri, and quite frankly I just want outside politics to leave the media I consume alone. Thus Atlus won't be getting money from me for Catherine.


For example, "being decent to trans folks is how we got extreme anti abortion laws" is such an absurdly bad faith take it's incredible. It's utter disingenuous nonsense. You're not interested in arguing in good faith in this thread, you're interested in pushing anti-trans dogwhistles so loud they might as well be blow horns. I'd advise against that.



It's very clear that just about half the thread is barely containing themselves from going on long rants about the evil social justice pushing folks and launching into long conspiracy theories. It's very tiresome and very obvious.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
Cecilthedarkknight_234



Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 3735
Location: Louisville, KY
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 9:39 pm Reply with quote
honestly at this point who cares? If a game get's censored or "localized" what's the point. All we're going to do is pi** and moan about it social media but that won't change a damn thing. It's pointless, I find the entire thing to be completely pointless. Why?? Well that's simple, because it's only going to keep on getting worse and "fighting back", is just a waste of time. Accept things they way are and move the hell on.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail My Anime My Manga
DRWii



Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 579
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 10:02 pm Reply with quote
El Hermano wrote:
But most importantly there's a huge difference between a creator changing their own work to reflect 'modern times' and a third party doing it.

Aphasial wrote:
But in this case, the original artist(s) weren't involved

Sony forcing Japanese devs to conform to US standards regardless of whether their games get released outside of Japan is a third party forcing creators to change things. This is a US branch of a Japanese company changing things for the US market. And do you really think Atlus USA has any power over Atlus JP? If Atlus really didn't want these changes to happen, they wouldn't happen. Even if we assume Hashino and the writing crew weren't consulted (I wouldn't be surprised if they were), the JP branch still had to sign off on any changes made. So

A) they don't like the changes, but the US branch convinced them it was a good idea,
B) they want their US customers to be happy, and were convinced the changes would make the most people satisfied, or
C) they don't care either way, and just gave the US branch the okay to do whatever.

I don't disagree that a lot of people are overly sensitive and/or read to much into things, and I prefer for localizations to not stray too far from the original version if they can help it, but that doesn't mean every single change is the worst thing ever and needs the rallying cry of "CENSORSHIP!". And this is all ignoring the fact that Full Body isn't even out in English yet, so the only change we can definitively comment on is the credit change from "Eric(A)" to "Erica." So maybe people should save any praise or criticism for the localization changes for after we know what they changed and how they changed it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
TasteyCookie



Joined: 19 Jan 2017
Posts: 392
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 10:17 pm Reply with quote
Mad_Scientist wrote:
Ashabel wrote:
configspace wrote:
And so several people who complained and bitched revealed that they still won't be buying the game because obviously the characters were originally like that and by buying, they'd be supporting the original Japanese devs.
https://twitter.com/mombot/status/1131734359843590144
Good job for shooting yourself in the foot, Atlus


I sincerely hope you realize exactly how you come off when you take a tweet that literally says "I couldn't care less about this game and was never going to buy it, but hey, I heard they changed it to be less bigoted and that's a nice thing of them to do." and falsely present it as "I actively campaigned to see that Atlus changes this game's contents, but still won't buy it after the change because of how it originally was".


They're quoting a tweet by an infamous harasser, liar, and anti-trans bigot, so pretty sure they do know and just don't care.

TasteyCookie wrote:
More pointless censorship to the minority whining on Twitter. And yes it is censorship. No one cares about the name change in the credits, it's the rewriting of the characters and dialog and ending so that it "doesn't offend people" who are still going to find ways to be offended anyways. Oh well, not going to buy the game then. Too bad you don't want our money Atlus, cancelling my pre-order. Keep your outside politics out of games, it's not going to help anyone.


Actually people WOULD care about changing the name in the credits, because the anti-trans crowd complain about any attempt to be decent to trans people no matter how mild. You can bring in your absurd dog whistles about "outside politics" into this thread, but we all know what that actually means. Any attempt to be decent to trans folks, no matter how tiny, would upset you.

TasteyCookie wrote:
[ Giving fringe outrage mobs what they want gives you the likes of crazy such as what's happening in Alabama/Missouri, and quite frankly I just want outside politics to leave the media I consume alone. Thus Atlus won't be getting money from me for Catherine.


For example, "being decent to trans folks is how we got extreme anti abortion laws" is such an absurdly bad faith take it's incredible. It's utter disingenuous nonsense. You're not interested in arguing in good faith in this thread, you're interested in pushing anti-trans dogwhistles so loud they might as well be blow horns. I'd advise against that.



It's very clear that just about half the thread is barely containing themselves from going on long rants about the evil social justice pushing folks and launching into long conspiracy theories. It's very tiresome and very obvious.


Just because you're a mod doesn't mean you can blatantly insult me with lies claiming I am pushing some anti-trans agenda. Like, where do you get at pushing people who said nothing of the sort. I have absolutely nothing against trans and didn't say anything even close to that. I am decent to any human regardless of sexual identity, because that shouldn't matter to anyone how you should be treated. Are you just trying to provoke me on purpose? You have absolutely no idea what I've voted for and the rallies I have participated in my state regarding religious persecution of LGBTQ, so don't even dare to force some "hidden agenda" onto me.

No, I would absolutely not care one bit about having the name in the credits. I do absolutely care about changing the story, the characters, dialog, and endings to fit an outcry of any minority. That's why I brought up extremism on both sides, because even though fringe ideals have a platform to whine about something on a global scale, doesn't mean we should be changing media to suit what somebody is claiming is acceptable. I am anti-censorship, not anti-trans in any respect so get those lying, provoking, inflammatory remarks out of here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mad_Scientist
Moderator


Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 2968
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 10:35 pm Reply with quote
TasteyCookie wrote:


Just because you're a mod doesn't mean you can blatantly insult me with lies claiming I am pushing some anti-trans agenda. Like, where do you get at pushing people who said nothing of the sort.


You said that people upset about transphobia in a game were a fringe mob and compared them to people pushing extreme laws in Alabama in a hyperbolic comparison, and mocked people upset about transphobia as a tiny minority offended by niche issues.

If you don't want people to assume you hate trans people, stop mocking, insulting, and belittling trans people upset at blatant transphobia and deadnaming while comparing them to extreme far right folks who despise them and want to destroy their lives. Rant as much as want about how I don't know you or your life details, that's true, what I do know is what you have posted in this thread. And what you have posted in this thread makes your agenda obvious.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
ChaosTheory



Joined: 11 Nov 2010
Posts: 17
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 10:45 pm Reply with quote
Mad_Scientist wrote:
TasteyCookie wrote:


Just because you're a mod doesn't mean you can blatantly insult me with lies claiming I am pushing some anti-trans agenda. Like, where do you get at pushing people who said nothing of the sort.


You said that people upset about transphobia in a game were a fringe mob and compared them to people pushing extreme laws in Alabama in a hyperbolic comparison, and mocked people upset about transphobia as a tiny minority offended by niche issues.

If you don't want people to assume you hate trans people, stop mocking, insulting, and belittling trans people upset at blatant transphobia and deadnaming while comparing them to extreme far right folks who despise them and want to destroy their lives. Rant as much as want about how I don't know you or your life details, that's true, what I do know is what you have posted in this thread. And what you have posted in this thread makes your agenda obvious.

Lol usually I don't bother pointing this out because people misuse the term but holy smokes did you construct an impressive strawman.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
milkyy



Joined: 24 Jul 2018
Posts: 67
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 10:51 pm Reply with quote
I'm guessing that the people who are offended by this aren't even going to play the game.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wyvern



Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 1061
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 10:52 pm Reply with quote
The internet loves drama, which is why people these days seem determined to define any change to a creative work as "censorship." Well, it's not. Censorship is when an outside authority, usually a government, forcibly changes or bans a creative work. In this case, the publisher themselves are changing something they created. That's not censorship, that's self-correction. It's no different than correcting a typo or changing a word choice, something most of the people posting in this thread did before posting their comments. You don't have to agree with it, but crying "censorship" just tells me you're more interested in creating drama and anger than in having a real discussion.

Also:
ChaosTheory wrote:

Lol usually I don't bother pointing this out because people misuse the term but holy smokes did you construct an impressive strawman.


I like how you said all that and still misused the term. So meta!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zimmer



Joined: 08 Jul 2015
Posts: 52
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 11:35 pm Reply with quote
The "transphobia" is just friends making jokes about each other.

Changing the name in the credits is a nonissue, but changing dialogue, well I'll wait to see how it's changed first.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 3 of 6

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group