Forum - View topicINTEREST: IGN: Catherine: Full Body Game's English Release Changes Deadname Credits
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Mad_Scientist
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 3011 |
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Speaking simply as a regular poster, I feel that this post made some very good points.
It's another reason why I find the "I'm boycotting Atlas for this, but I'm not upset about the deadname change" a little odd because so far the deadnaming being removed from the credits is literally the only change we know the details of. ***Speaking as a moderator now, let's get some things clear.*** Deadnaming is transphobic, period, and Catherine deadnamed the trans woman character in the credits. There were other aspects of the game, including a new ending for this version, that some people viewed as transphobic as well. There's been a lot of back and forth arguing about the exact details of the writing, but the credit issue is explicit transphobia that cannot be argued with. It's no different then if they'd used a slur to refer to her in the credits. Literally the second post in this thread was "More censorship for the easily offended." But let's break down what is actually being said here. Keeping in mind everything I posted above, the "censorship" in this case is Atlus taking a game that is transphobic, and apparently trying to at least tone down the transphobia for the US release. And the "easily offended" people are trans folks and allies who expressed dismay/complaints about the transphobia in the game. "More attempts by a game company to remove transphobia for trans folks and allies offended or upset by blatant transphobia" is what that post was saying in actuality, and it clearly viewed this as a bad thing. That's what this is about. The posts complaining about social media tweets and "mobs" and the like is attacking trans people who were offended by transphobia. Every post decrying the "censorship" of the game is saying they want the game to remain transphobic. When you remove the obfuscation and consider the posts in context, that is what they are saying: "trans people are easily offended mobs and I want this game to remain transphobic." Now, maybe some people objecting to the censorship are just doing it out of genuine principle, and would complain about ANY localization changes, regardless of context. But I'm not a fool. The other mods are not fools. We can generally get a pretty good idea when someone is arguing in bad faith. And some of you give some pretty obvious tells. Like linking to tweets by notorious harassers that screencap people and misstating what was screencapped, or linking to another tweet and claiming two completely different people are the same person and this somehow proves a point. Or well, let me bring up this now.
Here's what TasteyCookie posted earlier in this thread, in reply to someone saying that times had changed and transphobia wasn't/shouldn't be acceptable anymore.
Again, take this in context, remove the obfuscation, and what they are doing is directly calling trans people offended by transphobia a fringe mob and comparing them to far right politicians passing extreme laws. They bring up apparent death threats briefly but their post clearly condemns everyone upset at the transphobia and "blowing it up on social media." A trans woman saying "Ugh Atlus deadnamed Erica in the credits, that's so gross" is equivalent to a politician that hates trans folks anyways passing an oppressive law that TasteyCookie themselves considers crazy. (Also do we really want to open up the can of worms that is abortion laws in this thread? The answer is: NO WE DON'T.) That comparison is so absurd, so bad faith, that it's the reason I called out that post in particular. But let me be clear: it's not just one poster in this thread arguing in bad faith. Quite honestly, I was rather lenient to just issue a warning and not take any further action. Further posts that engage in blatantly obvious dog whistles or bad faith arguments, I will be far less inclined to be lenient on. |
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El Hermano
 Posts: 450 Location: Texas |
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It's always some form of C. Japanese creators aren't going to take time out of their schedule to micromanage a foreign version of their work. Licensing companies need some form of autonomy to properly function and do their job. Which is why most of the time changes like this come to a surprise for them like when upset fans got a response from the mangaka of Dragon Maid years ago when Funimation was making questionable dub descisions for that show. In this case, Hashino has been fairly blunt in how he does not take into consideration the overseas market when he makes his games despite all the threats and detractors he's had here.
It's a bit ironic you're saying that with your avatar considering One Piece had ruthlessly made fun of transgender people over the years far worse than anything in Catherine. But this Jonathon Stebel person did not have any hand in creating Catherine. No more than the 4kids did with One Piece when they went over and changed numerous stuff in their dub. You wouldn't say 4kids was making typo corrections for Toei or Oda would you? |
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Ashabel
 Posts: 350 |
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I shall actually go ahead and point that Atlus USA and Atlus JP do not actually exist as companies. Atlus JP is just a development division within SEGA who were allowed to keep their name because it serves as an effective brand image, while Atlus USA is the American extension of that brand. The actual Atlus JP have gone bankrupt twice since they originally published Catherine and were finally bought up by Sega after the second time. They aren't exactly a paragon of running a good business. Also pretending that somehow only the west has issues with Hashino's games is comically false. Ann's handling alone has been criticized on Japanese twitter because the game fetishizes the everloving hell out of her while at the same disingenuously claiming "Oh she's only one fourth American." in order to avoid actually addressing the social hot button of half-western children being both fetishized and severely discriminated against in Japanese society. |
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ChaosTheory
Posts: 17 |
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"an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument." Do I really have to explain how that is being applied ? You could go as far as calling it a textbook example. Said person was making so many assumptions and projections its almost not funny What is funny was your embarrassing attempt at dismissal. |
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Mad_Scientist
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 3011 |
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I'm gonna give you the benefit of doubt that you're still reading page 3 as you typed this response, so you didn't see my post where I show how I was literally just quoting their own words. I suggest you read that post not just for that, but because it has a message for the thread as a whole. Also I saw from looking at this thread that earlier other mods had to remove a bunch of insults, from multiple sides even, so friendly reminder to all involved to not go too far and avoid being too rude/insulting. |
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Alexis.Anagram
 Posts: 278 Location: Mishopshno |
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I'm glad that Atlus USA is taking the concerns of trans twitter (and any other space that put pressure on them) into account. Just goes to show it's always worth taking a chance to speak up about something, even if it seems minor, niche or tangential relative to other issues.
That said, I have to wonder at the responses in threads like this. Do folks here really believe that the dangerous trans censors have enough power to force companies to bend to our will, and we're settling for small fry like this? Please. |
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ChaosTheory
Posts: 17 |
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It was nice of you to literally outline how you built the strawman. Now I don't even have to bother. It's pretty clear you're someone who likes to flex their e-muscle at people who don't agree with you. Also, try to just have some degree of awareness. For the sake of argument, let's assume your position is 1000% correct and should be upheld. You are still fringe. I know it's hard to believe that but it's just objectively true. It's really easy to get fooled by sitting in bubbles and reading media sources that LOVE outrage culture (or at least exploiting it). The reality is it's estimated only about 1<% of people in the US are trans. Only around 6%~8% are LGBT. While that is a big number out of the total pop 330m~ that still leaves about 300m people that are not. I really reallllly despise identity politics. I am only interested in judging a person on their character and actions, nothing more, nothing less. That said, I'm going to go ahead and curb a strawman being constructed for me, my beliefs more closely align with Transhuman and even further Posthuman. Any outrage constructed by a single forum or twitter, is fringe actors, plain and simple. No hidden agenda behind my words, I assure you. |
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Mad_Scientist
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 3011 |
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Oh believe me, you're right about there not being a hidden agenda, you literally state it outright when you derisively use the phrase "identity politics." The rest of your post is you claiming quoting someone's exact words is building a strawman, and then misunderstanding the meaning and usage of the word fringe, especially in the context it was used. I have zero desire to "flex my e muscle" but I am a moderator here, and so my job is to moderate these forums and enforce the forums rules, and this includes trying to ensure that posters contributions do not create an atmosphere that is unwelcome to marginalized peoples. Which is what many of the posts in this thread were sadly doing, through thinly veiled dogwhistles and other methods. Enough is enough. |
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DRWii
 Posts: 636 |
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Some of this is only from memory, but fine, let's get pedantic. In 2010, Index (who already owned Atlus for years by this point) announced that Atlus would officially become "the gaming division of Index" (I distinctly remember this wording) and that the Atlus name would still be used on boxes for branding purposes. Atlus USA was similarly officially renamed Index Digital Media, Inc. (I forget if this before Catherine was announced or after, but it was definitely 2010) 2013, Index gets caught commiting fraud and files for bankruptcy. Sega Sammy (who also owns Sega) buys Index, and the folowing year seperates the gaming division back into its own company (obviously still owned by the Sega Sammy Corporation), and renames Index Digital Media, Inc. to Atlus USA. On the off chance no one clicks the link:
And a message from Hashino on that news:
So while there seemed to be no difference before or after for us consumers, on paper at least, Atlus didn't exist for about 4 years.
Not only do I not remember Atlus going bankrupt multiple times, I just put "atlus bankruptcy" into Google and searched the first 3 pages; all relevant hits were about Index going bankrupt in 2013. So either you're mistaken or you have better information than most people. If it's the latter, please share it. (And that's not snark, I genuinely want to know)
Okay. So are you just responding to the thread in general, or was this also directed at me (seeing as I'm the only one quoted in your post)? Because it feels like you're arguing a point I didn't make. |
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SakuraShimizu
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Why can’t there just be an in-game option to choose whether you want to play with the changes on or off or something to that effect? That way no one has to be offended. Isn’t that win-win?
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Lucky_Deity
Posts: 50 |
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As a Trans person myself, I am very pleased with the name change in the credits and though I prefer it when a company keeps everything as close to the original during translation, it's not exactly a bad change and isn't even a major part of the story.
Personally, I'm not bothered if the in-game dialogue is changed or not as that's the sort of person Vincent is, not the best guy in the world by far, same with some of the other characters, like Katherine for example. This is why I don't care if they kept it in or not, at the same time, I am happy about the change as it can hurt a little reading or hearing something like that sometimes, depending on the situation, person or piece of media etc. Trying to please everyone nowadays is impossible and sometimes companies go to far trying to please the "easily offended" but this isn't much at all. Again, I personally don't mind about the in-game dialogue but I'm happy at the same time, more so about the credits than anything though and still, if it wasn't changed, wouldn't ruin the game or anything. The original is one of my favourite games of all time and I own it on both PS3 and PC. |
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ronri
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As a fan of the original, I don't mind the announced change in the credits. It's a joke that I can live without and one that most people wouldn't even notice disappearing. That said, the supposed announcement of changing other character dialogue surrounding Erica seems a little extreme (I have a clue as to which parts they may change up, having played the original game). There's a point in the game where Vincent sort of stops being a blatant player-insert wherein the issues at large presented in the game come from unique character perspectives than the characters being simply broad archetypes. At that point, you know you're in a world with its own lore and cast of characters, and I'm scared that their attempt at changing dialogue lines may not align with the original writer's intention, but also simply the fact that it could also make for jarring presentation (pre-rendered animations vs dialogue lines being out of sync) and marred characterization (characters not being true to their written personalities/beliefs) in the localized version.
I recognize that Fullbody is a new version of the game, and from what I've read and heard, it's even made new content that seemed to have factored feedback on the original game's writing, specifically in how it deals with notions of cheating on your significant other and even introducing ideas of same-sex relationships. That said, the fact that these announced changes weren't actually part of this new vision they had created for Fullbody makes these changes feel a little dishonest and only serves to band-aid the issue. It's also worth noting that the most prominent dialogue surrounding this issue is mainly unique to one route of the game that specifically upholds traditional values/beliefs (at least in the original), so while it may be present for one part of the game, it may not hold true for the rest and this just goes to show the unique choices presented and his views/beliefs shift along with the rest of the narrative behind each route. I appreciate the gesture of recognizing these issues, but from a creative standpoint, decisions like these feel like a strange sterilization of the original intent and ideas behind the work. Let people judge it for what it is instead of frantically preempting a reaction on behalf of the creators/artists behind these works. Last edited by ronri on Sat May 25, 2019 11:17 am; edited 5 times in total |
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Woozah
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I just registered to ask, because this has been bugging the crap out of me ever since this all started...
Are we no longer allowed to portray bigoted people anymore in media? Or what the hell is actually going on??? I can understand the credits, it's a whatever to me. But rewriting the dialogue just seems like going too far to me? What evidence is there that there's actual bad intent from the devs side? To me it just seems like people are reading bad intent into it, but from what I've seen it's characters that are written as flawed. Are we not allowed to write characters that are bigoted or something? As if it's not a thing in real life? Like I can get the '' deadnaming '' in the credits being bad, but lets say a character doing it in the story for example... It does seem as if people are getting up in arms for the sake of getting up in arms, and then a lot of these same people accuse others of that when they point it out and/ or get mad because localizers are supposedly literally going in and re-writing scenes ( as far as I understand? ). It's like people throwing these big tantrums about female characters in video games that they're not even interested in, they manage to bully the publisher into freaking out and making the developers censor the art that they've created and worked hard on ( which REALLY sucks btw, any artists will tell you how shitty of a feeling that is ). And then these same people go all '' hurr durr, staph cryin bout ur animu tiddies u whiny man-babies '' afterwards when people are mad because content that they enjoyed was censored... I dunno tho, I am not completely familiar with this game in particular. But it just irritates the shit out of me that people are being dismissed and basically just told to '' shut up '' because they're disappointed that a game will have scenes rewritten by a localization team ( which may or may not be censorship, depending on whether the initial intent is changed or not ). The part about scenes being re-written is definitely something that I think it's perfectly legitimate to be worried and concerned about. I mean a lot of the supposed evidence that I've seen presented has been the characters in-game saying deragatory things. Not the developers coming out going like '' fudge trannies '' or something offensive like that... In the end of the day I am very uncomfortable with censorship in the video game industry ( also movies I suppose, altho it's less out in the open ). I mean I am just trying to think of how crap a lot of famous pieces of art would've been if the internet existed and the puritans of the time could throw big campaigns against the artists. And I think that to some extent we have to put up with some things that we find crap or offensive and some shitty people creating art. There's so many famous and amazing paintings from back in the day involving violence and nudity ( or even games and movies where it's used as a narrative device ), and all I am thinking is '' what if the internet existed back then?... ''. If we actually want to act as if video games are art, then we shouldn't be constantly trying to stifle the artists creating them, even if it hurts and it might not suit our tastes. I am just not comfortable with a self-appointed morality police and '' pro critics '' on the internet being the people who decides what artists create. And I think that it's going to backfire, if you normalize it it's going to be turned against you. It's only a matter of time and I think that it's rather naive to think otherwise. Societies at large have regressed before ( A LOT ), do you really want the toolbox of people when that happens to be so powerful? I know that people always want to make exceptions for this, but exceptions = exceptions = exceptions = exceptions = buts = just this once = one more time = we dun did it before = it's not a big deal y'all = it's normal = oh no, now it's affecting me... ... The strange thing is that I am saying all of this as someone who is EXTREMELY sensitive to things that I find offensive and actively make a huge effort to watch my language as to not hurt people. Including not even using words like '' fat '' and I am very sensitive to things like gendered insults or people judging others lifestyles etc. But I seriously think that people need to be extremely careful with this stuff when it comes to art. And I think that people often forget that it's artist behind it having their work tampered with. What if that happened to you, and you didn't approve or believe that you were in the wrong? Anyone who knows artists will probably know how much it can hurt to have your art tampered with, and ultimately a lot of amazing art today from back in the day would be reviled back when it was made. Not saying that it's always the case, but like I said '' exceptions = more exceptions '' etc. I'd rather let 100 pieces of crap exist so that one gem can be saved. |
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Steve Minecraft
 Posts: 120 |
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But it would still be in the game , which is what these people don't want. It's not about giving players options or making everyone happy. It's about making a statement. Allowing the original to exist in any official capacity in the English market undermines this statement.
I doubt Japan is going to change all that much, but I totally agree on your second point. This is definitely going to pop up more and more in translating Japanese media for American audiences as time goes on. We've already seen it pop up a couple of times over the past few years regarding certain manga, anime, and games. These people have realized they're not going to change Japan's mind on certain issues, so the next best thing is to change the official English translation and police the English fandoms. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16935 |
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There is a difference between portraying someone who is bigoted, misogynistic, etc. when there is a point to it, and where there is not. There's a difference when such a character is used as an actual plot device and they change in some manor. Or they're the rude uncle or aunt to a character who's moving past that sort of life. There's plenty of rude, bigoted, etc people in media used in such manners. There are unfortunately just as many that are used with no real point other than to simply be there in the story, used for poor jokes, or due to poor mindsets/beliefs of creators. The former is not the problem, the latter is. Now I am backing what Mad_Scientist already said. Stop the blatant dog whistle and strawman posts, and also the rude insults towards others here. Had to remove more posts that fell under one or both of those categories. |
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