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INTEREST: Japanese Fans, Official Translator Weigh in on Netflix Evangelion English Subtitle Debate


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John Thacker



Joined: 28 Oct 2013
Posts: 1006
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:22 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
which infamously changed Haruka and Michiru's relationship from lovers to cousins. They argue that by translating Kaworu and Shinji's lines literally, the translation gives fuel for deniers to argue that no romantic attraction exists between the two characters at all. This perpetuates a culture where gay relationships are seen as "just shipping" or "fan delusions" in media barring works explicitly labelled as "queer" or "LGBT."


Haruka and Michiru are one thing, and changing it obviously a disgrace, but the latter argument tends to devolve into "how can you possibly think that this intentionally ambiguous subtext is ambiguous?" That's why it is subtext. Sure, many people incorrectly assign a likelihood of zero to all relationships when there's subtext, but it's also stupid to insist that one hundred percent of relationships implied by subtext occur (queer relationships or not.) People do that with, for example, Rakugo Shinjuu. In that case it just would be text.
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Triltaison



Joined: 03 Jul 2011
Posts: 717
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:43 pm Reply with quote
I still have my ADV releases of Eva on VHS. I don't remember if they're dubbed or subbed, but I don't mind double-checking the line if it helps. Any interest?
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jdnation



Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 1993
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:02 pm Reply with quote
I think it's clear to know what it's getting at within the context of the series.

This lies more on the level of how God loves a human being.

It's intense. Surpassing friendship and family. It's passionate. But it's not sexual or romantic.

Hearing this can still cause one to blush, just as you might when your mother or father says it to you and it is something you've wanted to hear for a long time. Embarrassment is natural.

At this stage when Kowaru enters the stage, if I recall correctly, Shinji's mother died when he was young, his father is deliberately distant, Asuka is in a coma, he's just discovered Rei is a lab experiment clone, he killed his friend, and all the other classmates were evacuated, and Misato is far too busy with more important things. So Shinji is alone and vulnerable and pretty much every one of his other relationships has gotten screwed up.

So when Kowaru shows a deep interest in him, just as Kowaru has a deep interest in the Lilim culture and its offspring, which is humanity and Shinji, Kowaru says this to Shinji. To deliver the impact, the direction and actions depict homoeroticism. It's not just friendly guys, it's something deeper, conveyed by Kowaru, and then felt by Shinji that is far beyond that.

This is also evident in the 3.0 Rebuild film. Shinji has also lost everyone he knows and is familiar with due to the time skip, and worst of all, when he believed he was trying to save the girl and save the world, he only ended up losing both. His heroic efforts were all at rock bottom and he is prevented now from ever getting into the Eva. And again, it's here that Kowaru shows up, and reveals the truth to him and encourages him.

Kowaru is like akin to an angel, and in this case you could even say he's Shinji's and takes the bullet for him in both cases. Kowaru wants to see Shinji as a human being and descendent of Lilim/Adam thrive and overcome. It is this nature in human beings that Kowaru loves, in a show that's all about humanity and human relationships with each other. In the TV series it's about getting along with and breaking past each other's barriers to reach the other. In the Rebuild films, up to 3.0, it's seems about overcoming failure and depression and repeating the cycle over and over again until you're free and knowing that just empty anime bravado doesn't translate to results in the real world which can disappoint you heavily and break you down.

That's pretty much it. So in that sense, I'd say 'love' is the better translation, even if unfortunately immaturity takes this in the wrong direction and only filters it through a sexual lens. In which case you'd have to literally ignore every other scene where Shinji literally fantasizes about Rei, Asuka, Misato during instrumentality, and our famous scene during the beginning of End of Eva. And all this is after meeting Kowaru. So if there was any of that kind of that feeling there, it would've been present during instrumentality. But it's not and that should solve that.
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tailor31415



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 35
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:04 pm Reply with quote
I find it interesting nothing about the Funimation/Khara fight over 3.0 was brought up here. that's pretty important context for the franchise and probably should have been addressed as background for what happened with this retranslation of the subs.
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Never_Know_Best



Joined: 17 Dec 2011
Posts: 172
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:46 pm Reply with quote
Okay, but why are they all assuming Kaworu would behave like a Japanese person? The very conceit of his relationship with Shinji is that it’s so alien, it’s hard to define his affection as romantic or sexual or gay.
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Frog-kun
ANN Reviewer


Joined: 10 Jun 2017
Posts: 118
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:26 pm Reply with quote
tailor31415 wrote:
I find it interesting nothing about the Funimation/Khara fight over 3.0 was brought up here. that's pretty important context for the franchise and probably should have been addressed as background for what happened with this retranslation of the subs.


Kanemitsu told me that he was not at liberty to speak about any directions he received from Khara. Without verification from any of the parties involved, any link between the management of the Netflix subs and 3.0 would have been speculative in nature.

Quote:
In my humble opinion and with all due respect and love to Kim, I just don't believe this otherwise good neutral synoptical article needed a random personal tweeter-like take at the end. It looks very... out of place.


I also was uncertain whether it was okay to include my own opinion in a story that isn't about me. The point I wanted to address about "love" having an ambiguous meaning in the context of this particular scene wasn't discussed by the others quoted in the article, so I decided to include my thoughts as a footnote. In the end, I decided to leave it to editorial judgement about whether to leave it in.

I also just want to say that I think that the Twitter harassment really sucks big time. These days it feels practically impossible to discuss certain issues without a) making harassers feel justified in their shitty behaviours, or b) becoming a target of harassment yourself. Often both.
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FelipeFR



Joined: 26 Jun 2019
Posts: 16
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:55 pm Reply with quote
Keep in mind, it is very, very likely this has all been mandated by Khara themselves.

https://wiki.evageeks.org/Theory_and_Analysis:Kaworu%27s_lines_in_Episode_24
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prime_pm



Joined: 06 Feb 2004
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Location: Your Mother's Bedroom
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:14 pm Reply with quote
I really think this is all making a mountain out of a mole hill.
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mastix



Joined: 13 Jul 2013
Posts: 4
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:25 pm Reply with quote
Frog-kun wrote:

I also just want to say that I think that the Twitter harassment really sucks big time. These days it feels practically impossible to discuss certain issues without a) making harassers feel justified in their shitty behaviours, or b) becoming a target of harassment yourself. Often both.


It really really does. It's such a shame too, because in my mind this retranslation is such a fascinating learning opportunity. Rewatching this series with a translation focused more on retaining loyalty to the Japanese context, and being able to compare it to what we saw in the original dub/sub is just such great fodder for new discussion and insight into the show, which I think Dan so aptly puts is designed to be interpreted in different ways by every viewer. I wish there were more of this level-headed discussion about the difficulty of translation and how different perspectives can result in a very different conclusions on how any given line could be understood, but more so I wish there were more *excited* discussions about it. Also hope that this hubbub isn't scaring first timers away from watching this new edition.

In any case I was glad to read your take on this as a translator (you as a translator I mean, not me-- I have no idea). Thanks for keeping it in!
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johnnysasaki



Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 922
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:27 pm Reply with quote
Triltaison wrote:
I still have my ADV releases of Eva on VHS. I don't remember if they're dubbed or subbed, but I don't mind double-checking the line if it helps. Any interest?


I have them,and just checked them...HE SAYS LIKE TOO!!HOOOO BOY!more fuel to the fire now!
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FelipeFR



Joined: 26 Jun 2019
Posts: 16
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:35 pm Reply with quote
While I think the new voices still have to grow on me, it is clear that that this translation fixes so, so many mistakes and is absolutely committed to accuracy. I am speculating of course, but there is a lot of evidence indicating Khara have closely supervised this new translation much more so than they ever did with either ADV sub - as mentioned, the old one used "like" as well. It seems to me they mandated this specifically to get across their original intent. This has been a discussion among Eva fans both in East in West for 25 years, much like everything else in Eva.

For instance, as far as I can tell, they fixed ALL of these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyL3cGV6JDY
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Shar Aznabull



Joined: 12 Jan 2015
Posts: 236
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:43 pm Reply with quote
For anyone who's curious like I was, both the original ADV dub and their Platinum re-dub adapted it as "I'm saying I love you" while Netflix's dub has the line "I'm saying I like you".
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johnnysasaki



Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 922
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:48 pm Reply with quote
Shar Aznabull wrote:
For anyone who's curious like I was, both the original ADV dub and their Platinum re-dub adapted it as "I'm saying I love you" while Netflix's dub has the line "I'm saying I like you".


the VHS subs used "like"
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FelipeFR



Joined: 26 Jun 2019
Posts: 16
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:53 pm Reply with quote
Shar Aznabull wrote:
For anyone who's curious like I was, both the original ADV dub and their Platinum re-dub adapted it as "I'm saying I love you" while Netflix's dub has the line "I'm saying I like you".


The VHS had it as "like", though. Fansubbers have also wildly varied on it throughout the years. Do remember, the ADV dub took lots and lots of creative liberty and has many glaring errors which have bugged hardcore Eva fans for years.

https://evangelionsubtitles.wordpress.com/nge/
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Shar Aznabull



Joined: 12 Jan 2015
Posts: 236
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:00 pm Reply with quote
FelipeFR wrote:
The VHS had it as "like", though. Fansubbers have also wildly varied on it throughout the years. Do remember, the ADV dub took lots and lots of creative liberty and has many glaring errors which have bugged hardcore Eva fans for years.

https://evangelionsubtitles.wordpress.com/nge/

Oh yeah I wasn't trying to imply that it's a "correct" translation, I was just curious how each dub adapted the line.
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