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INTEREST: Hentai Artist Aiue Oka Asks Readers to Not Pirate, Buy Officially Licensed Manga


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Aphasial
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Joined: 08 Aug 2010
Posts: 114
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:22 pm Reply with quote
Zalis116 wrote:

idgal wrote:

Not all doujin are fanart, doujin just means fan made. Many of the doujin are OC. doujin are comparable to indie comic/titles.
I'd say it's more like some doujinshi are originals, but most are based on pre-existing intellectual property. I took a look at the first 3 pages of works tagged "Doujinshi" on a certain reader site, and only 21/108 of them (19%) weren't parodies of pre-existing non-ero franchises.


IANAL, but it seems an important point is that the source of the original IP doesn't actually quite matter if there's an environment where re-use of that IP is tacitly accepted by the original creators.

This is actually very akin to the origins of the GPL in software licensing. In short, the GPL is a software license where you allow others to modify/derive/redistribute your work IF AND ONLY IF *they* *also* allow others to modify/derive/redistribute any works the create from it as well, thus ensuring permissive licensing continues down the line.

The reason the GPL was invented was because licensing doesn't necessarily work like that. If you have permission (or, in this case, "permission") to create a derivative work, that derivative work (but not the original work) is copyrightable by you -- it's something you created/assembled/whatever. Of course, it's best if everything is put down in writing to begin with, but I don't see any moral necessity behind forcing doujin artists to give things away.

Outside of software licensing, the Creative Commons licenses were made to try to get these principles applied to content as well, but absent that it's *entirely reasonable* for someone who's been allowed to sell their fan-art already to enforce a copyright interest in it.
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omoikane



Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 406
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:50 am Reply with quote
Zalis116 wrote:
I'd say it's more like some doujinshi are originals, but most are based on pre-existing intellectual property. I took a look at the first 3 pages of works tagged "Doujinshi" on a certain reader site, and only 21/108 of them (19%) weren't parodies of pre-existing non-ero franchises.

If you look at bins at Hen Da Ne at cons you would think like 5% weren't parodies of pre-existing non-ero franchises. If you look at a recent Comiket catalog, it would be closer to 30%.

Probably should try to say something different.
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ARC-1300



Joined: 06 Feb 2012
Posts: 303
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:07 pm Reply with quote
Ariolander wrote:
>FAKKU

I think it might be better to buy it in the original Japanese to support the artist and use unofficial translations to actually consume it. Many people have ethical objections on how FAKKU runs their business, maybe promoting his Japanese version, over their English partner, might get more traction with his followers.


In a generation in which I grew up hearing that it was a waste of money to buy pron, I highly doubt it. Nor do I see the situation getting better.

But hey maybe I wrong. I doubt that as well.
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Catroos



Joined: 15 Jul 2019
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:54 pm Reply with quote
Unlikely for readers to depends on fan-translation while buying the original Japanse version otherwise official localization company won't have reasons to exist.

Top Gun wrote:

you could get a lot of mileage out of trying to figure out just how far fair use extends.


Definition of how "transformative" to be seen as parody is vague like mere reference to other works in original work or whether it is acceptable for expired copyright. In some case depends on the copyright holders, some of them tolerate them or promote fan-art events considering some of the mangaka started out with derivative works.

Crispy45 wrote:


The main issue with Fakku is they want to be the Crunchyroll of hentai but that's just not possible. Crunchyroll is only competing for 30-40 shows a season. Fakku would have to compete with thousands and thousands of smut that gets put out every year put out under numerous official publishing outlets as well as the self-published outlets like doujinshi, which is impossible to do. Fakku can't even obtain 1% of the hentai thousands of Japanese artists are making. It's an misguided model, and only serves to benefit the handful of artists and companies that do business with Fakku, which is not very much in the grand scheme of things. You're better off buying from the artist directly, like DLsite, Toranoana, or Melon Books. Which all have a much, much larger catalog as well.


They can only do handful as they don't have unlimited resources and not all artists consent to giving license to Fakku. There are fewer competitor for official English translation of H manga compare to non-H manga. I never heard of any company offer BOTH subscription of magazine and English translation of H-manga like Fakku. Since Fakku is a non-Japanese company selling to non-Japanese customers, they can offer uncensored products unlike those site (DLsite, Toranoana, or Melon Books).
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HamsterExAstris



Joined: 22 Apr 2019
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:53 pm Reply with quote
piotrus wrote:
But FAKKU end ENSHODO are much less so. Not only they issue takedowns for everything and never ever have I seen them share anything on another site, but here's what makes me really cringe - in a few cases ENSHODO seems to have issued takedowns for free fan translations of stuff they have licensed. So not only they don't let their stuff (as in, their translations/edits) be shared, but if they license a book, they are now actively targeting alternative translations/edits of those books that have been done by independent scanlators. That's, IMHO, is pretty 'evil'.

Issuing takedown requests for material violating the original artist's copyright doesn't seem evil to me. If the scanlators want to publish material without worrying about it being taken down, they can pay the original artist for a license.

piotrus wrote:
If more and more stuff becomes licenced in 'the West', if almost all of major Japenese artists go that route, think about the fate of the current sites that provide free doujins/h-manga. A lot of their stuff we are used to being free will go away.

And replaced with sites that actually compensate the original artist. I don't see that as a problem.

piotrus wrote:
I have spent probably four $ digits buying h-stuff legally, so I am putting my money where it is worth, but I am spending on Japanese services (buying original books or digital archives from Japanese services).

You are in the minority.

piotrus wrote:
So that note from those artists to 'Western fans' misses me - I am already supporting Japanese artists, and I don't like that their chosen way to work with 'the West' is through such services.

Expecting all English-speaking readers to do the same as you doesn't seem viable. Going "official", just like manga and anime back in the day, is likely the healthiest route forward for the industry.
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Zalis116
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Joined: 31 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:30 pm Reply with quote
omoikane wrote:
Zalis116 wrote:
I'd say it's more like some doujinshi are originals, but most are based on pre-existing intellectual property. I took a look at the first 3 pages of works tagged "Doujinshi" on a certain reader site, and only 21/108 of them (19%) weren't parodies of pre-existing non-ero franchises.
If you look at bins at Hen Da Ne at cons you would think like 5% weren't parodies of pre-existing non-ero franchises. If you look at a recent Comiket catalog, it would be closer to 30%.

Probably should try to say something different.
Okay, let's go with your numbers and assume 70% of doujins are parodies of pre-existing works. How does that not qualify as "most"? What "something different" should I be saying here? Is there some other word in the English language that is less extreme than "most," yet still conveys "significantly more than half"? "A supra-medianal quantity of doujins are parodies"? Can't believe you're trying to call me out over an 11% disparity here.

piotrus wrote:

1) It is difficult to balance the 'sharing is caring' and traditional economy. On one level, sharing stuff for free, often illegally, is how many people become familiar with a product. On another, there is the fallacy(?) of lost sales.
That's not "balance" at all; that's "On one hand, piracy helps, but on the other, it doesn't even matter!"

Quote:
IMHO [Illegal reader site URL removed ~Zalis] is very cool about leaks, and never issues takedowns. Heck, they even share a lot of their member stuff after few months or years. But FAKKU end ENSHODO are much less so. Not only they issue takedowns for everything and never ever have I seen them share anything on another site, but here's what makes me really cringe - in a few cases ENSHODO seems to have issued takedowns for free fan translations of stuff they have licensed. So not only they don't let their stuff (as in, their translations/edits) be shared, but if they license a book, they are now actively targeting alternative translations/edits of those books that have been done by independent scanlators. That's, IMHO, is pretty 'evil'.

Well, of course illegal reader sites that charge fees to access some of their content aren't going to issue takedowns -- they have no legal standing to do so. As HamsterExAstris points out, FAKKU and similar services have the rights to distribute the content; issuing takedowns isn't "evil," it's just what they do. FAKKU got their content removed from my reader site of choice, but I didn't get mad; I just found different avenues to pirate their stuff. And let's be honest, people aren't downloading or reading scanlations of legally-available eromanga to get a different take on "I can't stop the movement of my hips!". They're doing so because it's free.

Quote:
I mean, let's face it, pretty much everyone who works in FAKKU or ENSHODO grew up with free, pirated hentai, FAKKU was even a regular scanlator group for years before they went 'legal', but now they are effectively threatening to sue those who do what they were doing when they were younger. Not cool.
Yeah, they used to be scanlators, but they're not anymore. Things change.

Quote:
If almost all of major Japenese artists go that route, think about the fate of the current sites that provide free doujins/h-manga. A lot of their stuff we are used to being free will go away.
Which goes back to my previous point; people are mad at FAKKU et al because they're threatening to take away the free stuff. I don't claim to be without sin either, but I know that if you're going to sail the seven seas, you're bound to take an L once in a while.

Quote:
Long story short, it's a long standing conflict between those who think stuff like this (culture in general and porn in particular) should be free and those who want to lock it down behind paywalls to make profit. And of course the solution is in the middle. I am personally in favour of a system that would reduce the traditional copyright length to something like one year. In other words, stuff like doujins (or manga, or anime, or whatever) should be sold (rented, etc.) for about a year. After that it should be freely available online. Creators should get their $$$ from streaming/hosting services for new stuff, but their old works should be free.
This is not about "culture"; it's about commercial products that are created with the intention of generating income for artists and the companies that employ them. Without that intent, it doesn't get made, at least not at the scale and levels of quality that people are used to. And reducing copyright to just 1 year is not "in the middle"; it represents a practically total surrender to pirates. Unlike with all-ages anime and manga, there's not a huge demand for ongoing discussion of eromanga as it comes out -- readers could just get all the free stuff they want as long as they wait a year for new material, with no threat of takedowns or repercussions for site runners.

Quote:
They should go out of business and the artists who work with them should switch to more consumer and community friendly services that don't divide the world into black and white 'customers' and 'pirates'.
Why should they be friendly to entities that just want to mooch off and undermine them? Scanlators generally aren't interested in seeing the industry supported; they just want to get against-TOS Patreon donations for their own barely-coherent (but adequate for ero purposes) translations. And calling anyone who consumes something a "consumer" sounds like the talking points of a certain YouTube demagogue and anti-industry saboteur. In economic terms, consumers are those who pay for products and services. Pirates who never buy anything are not consumers. And among ero-manga and doujin readers, those who actually pay for any legal releases and services, let alone Japanese imports, are an extremely tiny minority.
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Kadmos1



Joined: 08 May 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:00 am Reply with quote
I do wonder when we will see a case of various manga-ka and industry figures admitting that some series become popular because of overseas piracy. Piracy technically can harm and help the industry in certain ways. Let's not forget that Crunchyroll became popular in part because it used to stream pirated videos. Concerning the "don't pirate my work even though I am making a derivative off of someone else's work", there is a hypocritical or double standard to that view. Heck, I think it is just about impossible to make a work without some sort of copyrighted work or public domain element being used.
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