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EP. REVIEW: Fire Force


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Kisuke525



Joined: 05 Nov 2019
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:46 pm Reply with quote
NeverConvex wrote:
Kisuke525 wrote:
...this is how things are in the world of Fire Force and in Okubo's other series Soul Eater as well. His works have a serious tone overall but both series are crazy and kinda wacky, the kinda series where anything can happen at any time no matter how ridiculous that's part of their charm.


Off the top of my head, I don't really agree with this comparison. I don't remember the same kind of consistent clash of tone being a problem in Soul Eater. I adored Soul Eater, and have a much smaller list of complaints about it (most of those pertaining to what I later came to understand was an anime-only ending that seemed pretty clumsy).

It would be quite a bit of work to dig up specific scenes and discuss that substantively, and doing so would pull us pretty far from the main topic of this thread, though, so I'll let it go havin9g said that.


If you only saw the anime of Soul Eater I can understand why you would think that. The anime cut out and changed quite a bit from the manga, so the similarities between it and Fire Force aren't as noticeable to people who haven't read it. Between the two manga I actually think Fire Force is a bit more serious and less wacky.
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HAL14



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:57 pm Reply with quote
Kisuke525 wrote:


If you only saw the anime of Soul Eater I can understand why you would think that. The anime cut out and changed quite a bit from the manga, so the similarities between it and Fire Force aren't as noticeable to people who haven't read it. Between the two manga I actually think Fire Force is a bit more serious and less wacky.


It's because fire force tries to be more serious that the clash in tone is more glaring, while in Soul eater even its darker moments were still very wacky. Heck, the final third of Soul eater involved an antagonist that was the embodiment of madness.
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Kisuke525



Joined: 05 Nov 2019
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:20 pm Reply with quote
HAL14 wrote:

It's because fire force tries to be more serious that the clash in tone is more glaring, while in Soul eater even its darker moments were still very wacky. Heck, the final third of Soul eater involved an antagonist that was the embodiment of madness.


Fire Force is more serious, but I really don't think the clash in tone is that much more noticeable.
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Hiroki not Takuya



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:28 pm Reply with quote
Well, my post of Sept14 has finally come true with Ep19 and for once the LLL is actually used for a purpose in battle[email protected], yeah, I don't think we need the LLL countdown because it seems it will be stuck at zero until the series end. Maybe you can do a ranking 1-10 of how the week's LLL compares in titillation or stupidity? This week's two incidents were dumb/needless and interesting respectively...

Also, not sure what this show is going for wrt women's characterization because it seems intent on being exceedingly sexist but then turns around and has has them being "bad-asses". I agree with NeverConvex that the LLL and such are needless distractions. BTW, I had heard that during the Soul Eater anime writing, Ohkubo's input was "politely disregarded" because he kept trying to put in ecchi elements and that the series later tone resulted from that
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DavetheUsher



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:47 am Reply with quote
Hiroki not Takuya wrote:
BTW, I had heard that during the Soul Eater anime writing, Ohkubo's input was "politely disregarded" because he kept trying to put in ecchi elements and that the series later tone resulted from that


Sounds like a baseless rumor. The anime stopped following the manga at Battle of the Brew so that would be why everything after had a sudden tone shift since it wasn't written by Ohkubo for half the series. I mean, there may have been a lack of fanservice after that, but they disregarded everything about the manga at that point so it's not like that was singled out.
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AntiKuro



Joined: 01 Aug 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:56 pm Reply with quote
Hiroki not Takuya wrote:
Well, my post of Sept14 has finally come true with Ep19 and for once the LLL is actually used for a purpose in battle[email protected], yeah, I don't think we need the LLL countdown because it seems it will be stuck at zero until the series end. Maybe you can do a ranking 1-10 of how the week's LLL compares in titillation or stupidity? This week's two incidents were dumb/needless and interesting respectively...

Also, not sure what this show is going for wrt women's characterization because it seems intent on being exceedingly sexist but then turns around and has has them being "bad-asses". I agree with NeverConvex that the LLL and such are needless distractions. BTW, I had heard that during the Soul Eater anime writing, Ohkubo's input was "politely disregarded" because he kept trying to put in ecchi elements and that the series later tone resulted from that


What exactly are you classifying as being overly sexist?
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Kisuke525



Joined: 05 Nov 2019
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:17 pm Reply with quote
This was a solid episode. I'm really glad the nether arc was able to make it into the anime, because this is where the series starts to improve a good bit. Sadly this is as far as the anime is going to go unless that thing about it having 24 more episodes after a break is actually true. And I know some people hate the lucky lecher lure but I think it's fun to see what ridiculous thing Okubo does with it next. I honestly think he makes the situations so ridiculous because he's poking fun at the all the other series in the magazine that pretty much just use their sexual content to turn people on.

I do find it odd that the review says characters like Maki are underutilized though. The females are used quite a bit more in this series than the average shonen battle series and they pretty much always pull their weight to.
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Lord Vaultman



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:40 pm Reply with quote
James in 19 weeks you nor any other reviewer on this site has yet to comment on what you think of the same day dub so far. Any comments yet or still crickets?
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blameitonStarBlazers
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:31 pm Reply with quote
First episode of Fire Force in weeks that I’ve thoroughly enjoyed. Girl power for the WIN! Maki was so bad-ass this episode. That’s right, evil henchman, you got beat by a girl so suck it! And if you’re going to have a stupid sexist trope like LLL (ugh, don’t get me started on that Rekka fight), that’s how you do it! I laughed my ass off. That was perfect. FINALLY, payback for every woman who’s ever been ogled/groped. I found it viscerally cathartic. Breezy!
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JonDoe



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:17 am Reply with quote
blameitonStarBlazers wrote:
First episode of Fire Force in weeks that I’ve thoroughly enjoyed. Girl power for the WIN! Maki was so bad-ass this episode. That’s right, evil henchman, you got beat by a girl so suck it! And if you’re going to have a stupid sexist trope like LLL (ugh, don’t get me started on that Rekka fight), that’s how you do it! I laughed my ass off. That was perfect. FINALLY, payback for every woman who’s ever been ogled/groped. I found it viscerally cathartic. Breezy!


If your idea of "girl power" is to have a young girl be molested by an unwilling recipient then I worry for you. Seriously it's just like James said. They set up this whole sub plot of Tamaki wanting to be taken seriously only for it to end in such a way where the author may as well be saying: "NOPE, silly girl the only way you'll ever contribute to the plot is via fanservice lol!"
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Hiroki not Takuya



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:25 am Reply with quote
AntiKuro wrote:
Hiroki not Takuya wrote:
...Also, not sure what this show is going for wrt women's characterization because it seems intent on being exceedingly sexist but then turns around and has has them being "bad-asses". I agree with NeverConvex that the LLL and such are needless distractions...
What exactly are you classifying as being overly sexist?
Please see highlighted text. If you are asking why I think the show is sexist or even exceedingly so, I'll start by examining the primary female cast members and how they are characterized

Maki- Was said to not be capable as a fighter in the Army relative to the Lt Commander, and becomes enraged at perceived slights to her feminine attractiveness. She likes to make and play with "cute" fire-sprites and becomes overcome with emotion when a male compliments her. In several scenes confronted by antagonists, she is seen cowering in the company of the other women.

Tamaki- Has shown little prowess in use of her powers besides producing cat-ears and fiery tail, her major characteristic is the Lucky Lecher Lure which leads to outbursts of consternation. She tends to wear little clothing and while at Company 1 she was obsessively devoted to Rekka and allowed herself to be abused by him, to the point of luring children to thier deaths to please him. Also seen cowering in multiple situations.

Iris- Almost exclusively seen acting subserviently and cowers frequently, and at least twice acting with very little intelligence.

Hibana- While presented as a powerful and abusive "man-hater", she usually wears a low-cut tight thigh-high split evening gown and in the face of opposition and physical assault by Shinra, becomes emotionally attached and devoted to him.

I was tempted to define sexism, but I think the fact that the whole female cast plays out various elements of male sexist views while the male cast is shown as very powerful, intelligent (except Arthur...), courageous etc. I think makes the conclusion self-evident. I don't propose that FF is the most sexist show ever, but it seems to be more so than most in the last few years and so is "exceedingly" sexist.
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AntiKuro



Joined: 01 Aug 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:22 am Reply with quote
Hiroki not Takuya wrote:
Please see highlighted text. If you are asking why I think the show is sexist or even exceedingly so, I'll start by examining the primary female cast members and how they are characterized

Maki- Was said to not be capable as a fighter in the Army relative to the Lt Commander, and becomes enraged at perceived slights to her feminine attractiveness. She likes to make and play with "cute" fire-sprites and becomes overcome with emotion when a male compliments her. In several scenes confronted by antagonists, she is seen cowering in the company of the other women.

Tamaki- Has shown little prowess in use of her powers besides producing cat-ears and fiery tail, her major characteristic is the Lucky Lecher Lure which leads to outbursts of consternation. She tends to wear little clothing and while at Company 1 she was obsessively devoted to Rekka and allowed herself to be abused by him, to the point of luring children to thier deaths to please him. Also seen cowering in multiple situations.

Iris- Almost exclusively seen acting subserviently and cowers frequently, and at least twice acting with very little intelligence.

Hibana- While presented as a powerful and abusive "man-hater", she usually wears a low-cut tight thigh-high split evening gown and in the face of opposition and physical assault by Shinra, becomes emotionally attached and devoted to him.

I was tempted to define sexism, but I think the fact that the whole female cast plays out various elements of male sexist views while the male cast is shown as very powerful, intelligent (except Arthur...), courageous etc. I think makes the conclusion self-evident. I don't propose that FF is the most sexist show ever, but it seems to be more so than most in the last few years and so is "exceedingly" sexist.


I guess it's one me for not understanding that you saw it as sexist due to stereotypes. When I think sexism I think discrimination and prejudice. I'm so used to stereotypes and tropes being over played in media that I don't inherently see the big issue anymore.

I also don't feel like Maki liking to play with cute things should be seen as sexist. I don't think there should be an issue where a tough person likes to play with something cute. I'm trying to think of a specific scene I've seen her cower behind other people, but I am possibly an episode behind at the moment.

Tamaki devotion thing to Rekka is a thing that happens, and it sucks. Women blindly follow a man who is nice to them, and in a way is groomed by them and then they excuse away the things they do or they don't see it because they don't want to see it. I don't think it's sexist to play that out, though I do think the LLL was unneeded and took away from what otherwise was a good moment in the show.

I'm not even going to touch the way the characters dress as being sexist but that's because I don't inherently see anything wrong with a character dressing sexy.

I've literally just recently watched a live-stream of a DND game where a female character was being labeled as sexist for using womanly charms to get her way, so I think people opinion of what is sexist is sometimes a matter of opinion.

But I also think men tend to sometimes follow stereotypes and tropes when it comes to writing women and that's why you see this stuff a lot of times.
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Gasero



Joined: 24 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:37 pm Reply with quote
AntiKuro wrote:
I guess it's one me for not understanding that you saw it as sexist due to stereotypes. When I think sexism I think discrimination and prejudice. I'm so used to stereotypes and tropes being over played in media that I don't inherently see the big issue anymore.

There is discrimination between sexes here. When you identify personality and character traits present in male and female characters of Fire Force, there is clearly a difference in which traits males receive and which females receive, and those traits seem to be based on traditional gender roles that discriminate against whats allowed for male and female personalities and actions.

Quote:
...I don't think there should be an issue where a tough person likes to play with something cute...

There wouldn't be an issue if it didn't seem discriminatory, but I think it is. There are not many if any "tough" male characters that enjoy playing with "cute" things, so it seems odd that a "tough" female enjoys playing with cute things. This implies that females who are tough must also have a soft spot for cute things, but males do not. There is nothing inherently wrong with Maki's enjoyment with cute things, but in terms of a social analysis of why the writer would give her that character trait, it seems sexist to give a tough female character a "soft" side in this way.

Quote:
...Tamaki devotion thing to Rekka is a thing that happens, and it sucks....

Yes, this is a thing that happens. Maybe it didn't need to happen again here. Why did none of the male characters devote themselves to Rekka as much as Tamaki did? Seems odd.

Quote:
...I'm not even going to touch the way the characters dress as being sexist but that's because I don't inherently see anything wrong with a character dressing sexy...

Women dressing sexy is not inherently sexist, but it does seem sexist when female characters regularly expose their bodies and are sexually assaulted while male characters do not seem to have this issue.

Quote:
...I've literally just recently watched a live-stream of a DND game where a female character was being labeled as sexist for using womanly charms to get her way, so I think people opinion of what is sexist is sometimes a matter of opinion...

Without seeing the context I can't know for sure why the female player would be labeled as sexist. I will comment that it can be sexist to assume that others should do things for a woman just because the woman charmed them. It is similarly sexist for a male to assume that a female should do things for a male just because the male did the female a favor.

Quote:
But I also think men tend to sometimes follow stereotypes and tropes when it comes to writing women and that's why you see this stuff a lot of times.

Men and women often follow these stereotypes and that's part of the reason why they are widespread. The issue I have with Fire Force is that it seems like the writer is intentionally reinforcing tropes that are degrading to the sensibilities of both males and females.
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Hiroki not Takuya



Joined: 17 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:04 pm Reply with quote
AntiKuro wrote:
... When I think sexism I think discrimination and prejudice...I also don't feel like Maki liking to play with cute things should be seen as sexist....

I'm trying to think of a specific scene I've seen her cower behind other people, but I am possibly an episode behind at the moment...

I'm not even going to touch the way the characters dress as being sexist but that's because I don't inherently see anything wrong with a character dressing sexy.

I've literally just recently watched a live-stream of a DND game where a female character was being labeled as sexist for using womanly charms to get her way, so I think people opinion of what is sexist is sometimes a matter of opinion.

But I also think men tend to sometimes follow stereotypes and tropes when it comes to writing women and that's why you see this stuff a lot of times.
Before I say anything, I just want to say thank you, thank you, thank you for your attitude. You know, I stayed away from reading this thread this week because I was expecting a wall of vitriol because that has been the norm here at ANN for a long time. Maybe some of the "bad actors" have been removed (?). You're clearly not one and neither am I so I really appreciate it!

To your last point first, you are absolutely right and I usually expect some of that to come through in anime too. What "gets in my face" are writers that not only don't try to keep prejudices like sexism out of thier writing, but seem to blatantly put it in frequently and even try to portray more extreme examples than the usual. I'm not pronouncing judgement of that as "bad" but I don't like it and I'll certainly point it out. Now, I still think FF isn't overall terrible and this week's Ep seems like the story may be veering away from some of that so here's hoping...

You are right again that sexism is a prejudice and can lead to discrimination if acted upon, but you can only have the latter in a story if the characters act out such. It seemed to me that the Lt Cmndr was doing that regards to Maki in the Army, but he could have been referring to her mentality so maybe that shouldn't have been an example. In media, the "tell-tale" of prejudices I find is usually where and how the stereotypes that are associated with that prejudice are used and how frequently. Maki being enamored of "cuteness" isn't by itself sexist although a stereotype but coupled with her emotionalism when being complimented by males specifically and that she has cowered alongside the other women (not really behind) despite her supposed fighting prowess adds up to sexist treatment of the character IMO.

Also, nothing wrong with dressing "sexy" and in itself it's not sexist (and as a guy I appreciate it in anime), but coupled with the characters acting out other sexist stereotypes makes the case. The DND player being manipulative by using sexual attraction on other players (characters?) shouldn't have been labeled that way IMO because it a huge logical leap to imply that doing something means endorsement or universal application is the case. In fact, I see that being used as an intellectual weapon to attempt to stop the person from a behavior that is disliked which I see used way too often in media and elsewhere and is dishonest.

The reason I go into this sort of analysis is to find the truth about things through reason so that everything isn't "a matter of opinion" as there are no doubt many differing opinions on things. I find arguments are harder to sustain when one gets to specifics which I'll happily discuss with anyone without antagonism and again, I really appreciate talking with you about this.
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Gina Szanboti



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:17 am Reply with quote
The LLL in episode 18 looks like they saw episode 5 of Comical Psychosomatic Medicine and just ran with it.



There's a later scene where 5 guys simultaneously accidentally fall into the same girl's clothes on a train, so I expect we'll see something like that incorporated into the LLL in the future.

As for the rest of the episode, I didn't see that what Shinra learned to do was any different from what we've already seen him doing up til now. He leaves a bit more of a crater on take-off, but he doesn't seem to have exceeded his previous top speeds in flight. Iirc, when he was trying to intercept the arrow, he was going so fast his face looked like he was in a wind tunnel, so I'm not sure he could physically take much higher speeds than that and still be able to breathe without a windshield.
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