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Manga Answerman - Is Translating 'Lolicon' as 'Pedophile' Accurate?


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Heishi



Joined: 06 Mar 2016
Posts: 1314
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:33 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Also, straight fudanshi do exist and they don’t read yaoi because they’re all closeted gays. At least one explanation that they’ve offered is that men in yaoi are allowed to be far more emotionally expressive and vulnerable than in any other genre of fiction, which can be cathartic to read about.


Which is why I think we should allow male characters to express themselves more emotionally and feel more vulnerable without any subject to insult in more mainstream works.
One of the reasons why I love a male character like Shouta in Kobayashi Dragon Maid is because of his innocent demeanor and "shrinking violet" characterization.
I think it would be great if we had people more willing to create and accept characters like him without having the need to "toughen him up" like many works almost always do.


Another reason why I admittedly do enjoy straight shouta. My most desired kind of straight shouta is between a feminine boy and a very muscular woman. Oops, I did something wrong and horrible, didn't I?
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Yuvelir



Joined: 06 Jan 2015
Posts: 1529
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:44 pm Reply with quote
Serious subjects should be treated seriously.
Pedophilia is a very socially serious subject and thus "pedophile" is a very powerful word with a lot of gravitas while "lolicon" isn't. It does nobody any favours to throw it around liberally.

In an otaku culture context said by a character that is at least aware of the common terms, it definitely should be left as is. English-speaking otaku afterall will be using such terms with no regards to what "normal people that don't know a word of Japanese" might understand or not.
In all other situations, the NUANCE and INTENT should be of utmost importance before choosing a word (and as a translator, getting the intent and nuance as close as possible to the original is your damn job).
Is it used to describe a character who gets aroused by very young girls and might or might not pose a threat to them? By all means, go ahead and use it. Last week we got that example in Araburu Kisetsu.
Are the characters engaging in banter or does one of them want to ridicule or upset another? Then there are other lighter options that I've seen used: "he's/you're into kids", "pedo" or "child chaser". The disgust and "wrongness" are still there but the criminal accusation isn't.

Something that I've seen a couple times is unpacking the term into "lolita complex". Anyone familiarized with the book/movie will be able to make an educated guess as to what it means and everyone else can easily search the meaning (with less dangerous google results).
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Crispy45



Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Posts: 363
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:20 pm Reply with quote
Zalis116 wrote:
Some of this controversy appears to be motivated by anti-industry sentiment in the anime viewerbase -- they treat translating "lolicon" as "pedophile" as a crime against nature when official companies do it, yet there's not nearly this much uproar when fansubs do the same. Incidentally, the Bandai sub/dub translations for those lines are "That means you have a Lolita complex, right, Dad?" / "Does that mean you have a Lolita complex?" and "Sometimes I have a Lolita complex" / " 'I also have a Lolita complex' is a better way of putting it."


I'm going to hazard a guess that it's mainly because you're comparing a translation from a show people are currently watching to an old fansub from 2007 which most fans in 2019 probably haven't cared about in over a decade.

Gray Lensman wrote:
One thing I'll note is that Funimation especially seems to avoid using anime specific terms - the dub of Love Tyrant refers to Akane as a psycho rather than a yandere despite those two terms having vastly different meanings - but then, there isn't a direct English equivalent of yandere. I don't expect to hear terms like lolicon in a Funi translation for this very reason - they don't localize to the extent of 4kids, but they do seem to go a little further than Crunchyroll or Sentai.


Funimation is pretty infamous for it's over-localized translations. People either love them for that or hate them. I'm sure they have their niche audience, although not enough to save shows like Shin-chan or Keroro Gunsou in the west. Although these days it seems people are looking for more accurate translations and dislike over localizations as the recent controversies in some of their translations have shown to the point they have to go back and fix it for the home video release.
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Gray Lensman



Joined: 17 Mar 2019
Posts: 143
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:40 pm Reply with quote
Crispy45 wrote:
Zalis116 wrote:
Some of this controversy appears to be motivated by anti-industry sentiment in the anime viewerbase -- they treat translating "lolicon" as "pedophile" as a crime against nature when official companies do it, yet there's not nearly this much uproar when fansubs do the same. Incidentally, the Bandai sub/dub translations for those lines are "That means you have a Lolita complex, right, Dad?" / "Does that mean you have a Lolita complex?" and "Sometimes I have a Lolita complex" / " 'I also have a Lolita complex' is a better way of putting it."


I'm going to hazard a guess that it's mainly because you're comparing a translation from a show people are currently watching to an old fansub from 2007 which most fans in 2019 probably haven't cared about in over a decade.

Gray Lensman wrote:
One thing I'll note is that Funimation especially seems to avoid using anime specific terms - the dub of Love Tyrant refers to Akane as a psycho rather than a yandere despite those two terms having vastly different meanings - but then, there isn't a direct English equivalent of yandere. I don't expect to hear terms like lolicon in a Funi translation for this very reason - they don't localize to the extent of 4kids, but they do seem to go a little further than Crunchyroll or Sentai.


Funimation is pretty infamous for it's over-localized translations. People either love them for that or hate them. I'm sure they have their niche audience, although not enough to save shows like Shin-chan or Keroro Gunsou in the west. Although these days it seems people are looking for more accurate translations and dislike over localizations as the recent controversies in some of their translations have shown to the point they have to go back and fix it for the home video release.


For me, how much localization is acceptable really depends on the show and where it airs. Something like My Hero Academia (and anything that gets a cable broadcast or is on Netflix) is almost a 'starter anime', for lack of a better term, and can withstand a higher degree of localization than something steeped in anime tropes like Love Tyrant. Coupled with a broader potential audience (at least in North America), minimizing terms that the first time anime viewer is unlikely to know comes across to me as acceptable. However, going overboard and turning rice into jelly donuts is far too much under any circumstances.

And, as I already previously mentioned, sometimes stuff needs to be localized because the terms don't translate properly - this includes any and all puns, since those are going to be lost in translation to anyone outside of someone who speaks near-fluent Japanese, as well as slang terms and double entendres.
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Juno016



Joined: 09 Jan 2012
Posts: 2377
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:42 pm Reply with quote
I have three points to make, the last of which is complex and interesting.

1) I am a lesbian (DEFINITELY not bi), but I like straight ero-anime and ero-manga. This doesn't feel contradictory to me at all.

2) To those arguing that anthro furry porn is different because it involves fantasy creatures, what do you think of anthro furry lolis? Does the same standard apply?

3) I translate for an ero-illustrator who illustrated ero loli game art for much of his early career. I was able to get a... "response" from him regarding whether he thought "lolicon" refers to those who only like fictional lolis or if it could also apply to someone attracted to real children exclusively. His first response was pretty telling to me: "I don't know." I clarified I was looking for his personal opinion and he told me he thinks people use the word as a blanket for all, but he personally thinks it should refer only to fiction. It's not quite a conclusive response regarding the topic, but it reinforces my thought that the definition of the word is pretty divisive, even in Japan.

If I were the translator, I would probably use "lolicon" for that scene, but I also believe certain words that are normalized within the otaku community should be left alone if the intended audience is that same community. Elsewhere, it should be translated into an English word based on the context. In that case, "Pedophile" might be appropriate" if "lolicon" is referring to an actual pedophile character.
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Actar



Joined: 21 Nov 2010
Posts: 1074
Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:12 am Reply with quote
Okay. People here have been talking about context but only in terms of its diegetic use in the show. On the other hand, I'm going to ask if the term "lolicon" in Japan evokes the same kind of revulsion and moral outrage as the term "pedophile" in the US does. If yes, then I don't see the problem. If not, perhaps the translation's off the mark.
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Sakagami Tomoyo



Joined: 06 Dec 2008
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Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:15 am Reply with quote
bennyl wrote:
How can it even make sense that a child is a pedophile?

The devil's in the details. If the child is a teenager and the object of their sexual desire is roughly the same age as them (to within a year or two), that's normal, no problem. Say a 16-year-old boy with a 15-year-old girlfriend, for example. But a 16-year-old attracted to a 7-year-old? Pedophile, even if they are strictly speaking still a child themselves.
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Ariho



Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 9
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:24 am Reply with quote
Actar wrote:
On the other hand, I'm going to ask if the term "lolicon" in Japan evokes the same kind of revulsion and moral outrage as the term "pedophile" in the US does.

It does not. But the difference in perceived negativity is not so much because of the difference in language, but because of the difference in culture. Being a “lolicon” in Japan is not as grave because being sexually attracted to children in Japan is not as grave [1], not because it refers to a more socially‐accepted attraction than “pedophile” [2]. Someone meaning to describe just that in the U.S.A. would be found to be more offensive than in Japan, no matter how they said it.
Leaving “lolicon” untranslated to avoid the more negative implications of any English word or phrase meaning roughly the same thing might be a better way of conveying the intent of the original, but it only works if the target audience understands that aspect of Japanese society, in which case they would probably get it regardless of which word is used.
Another alternative could be to use an English term meant to be less stigmatizing, such as “MAP”—but “the main reason it doesn’t have such [a negative] baggage is because very few people outside of pedophile circles have actually ever heard it.” (Wiggin, 2016)

[1] 10 % of Japanese men acknowledge sexual interest in prepubescent girls (Taguchi, 2015), which is from about twice as many (Dombert et al., 2015) to two orders of magnitude more (Santtila et al., 2015) than in other countries.
[2] Which it does, as it excludes boys and includes young adolescents. However, that is unlikely to change the opinion of anyone that used either word disparagingly to begin with.
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Fodder



Joined: 10 Aug 2019
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:15 am Reply with quote
Lots of deflections going on here with long winded posts. Like I said before, I don't get the uproar, a girl finds a guys cartoon kiddy porn stash and questions if he is a ped.? As a native English speaker, good translation. I got a massive laugh out of it because my sister believe it or not I don't care said something similar to me when I was looking at Gate pictures and had a Rory Mercury picture up. (not sexual). Also, Lolicon refers to paedophilic material of cartoon children in sexual and sex situations. That's my line in the sand as soon as you start defending that trash your opinion is invalid.
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Actar



Joined: 21 Nov 2010
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Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:01 am Reply with quote
Generally, I'm of the opinion that culturally-specific or otaku-specific terms should be left in. It's no more gatekeeping than having to learn basic greetings or how not to offend others when you go overseas. It's part and parcel of enjoying the media from another culture.

Ariho wrote:
Actar wrote:
On the other hand, I'm going to ask if the term "lolicon" in Japan evokes the same kind of revulsion and moral outrage as the term "pedophile" in the US does.

It does not. But the difference in perceived negativity is not so much because of the difference in language, but because of the difference in culture.


I get where you're coming from. However, MAP is a severely criticized and politicized term that has been seen as an attempt by pedophiles to normalize themselves. In this case, I would still suggest the usage of the term lolicon regardless. While it might not have the same meaning in the West (referring to 2D attraction), it does the job in communicating a lack of severity when it comes to such topics.

Sakagami Tomoyo wrote:
bennyl wrote:
How can it even make sense that a child is a pedophile?

The devil's in the details. If the child is a teenager and the object of their sexual desire is roughly the same age as them (to within a year or two), that's normal, no problem. Say a 16-year-old boy with a 15-year-old girlfriend, for example. But a 16-year-old attracted to a 7-year-old? Pedophile, even if they are strictly speaking still a child themselves.


I don't know... The whole legally underaged minor versus actually being a child is something that always annoyed me because people tend to conflate the two. You've had teens branded pedophiles for having sexual relationships with partners just a year or two younger than them.
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Florete



Joined: 21 Jan 2018
Posts: 363
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:27 am Reply with quote
bennyl wrote:
How can it even make sense that a child is a pedophile?

It's possible for the character to be wrong in what she says rather than the translation of what she said to be wrong.
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AksaraKishou



Joined: 16 May 2015
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Location: End of the World
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:00 am Reply with quote
Florete wrote:
bennyl wrote:
How can it even make sense that a child is a pedophile?

It's possible for the character to be wrong in what she says rather than the translation of what she said to be wrong.


There's a difference between a character being wrong and the writer not knowing wtf they're putting out.
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AkumaChef



Joined: 10 Jan 2019
Posts: 821
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:14 am Reply with quote
Yuvelir wrote:
Serious subjects should be treated seriously.
Pedophilia is a very socially serious subject and thus "pedophile" is a very powerful word with a lot of gravitas while "lolicon" isn't. It does nobody any favours to throw it around liberally.

In an otaku culture context said by a character that is at least aware of the common terms, it definitely should be left as is. English-speaking otaku afterall will be using such terms with no regards to what "normal people that don't know a word of Japanese" might understand or not.


I think that hits the nail on the head. I agree completely. And it's also worth noting that nearly any hobby or interest requires the knowledge of at least a few "foreign" terms. If you're into photography you learn the Japanese term "bokeh". If you're into cooking you learn a whole bunch of French (saute, bouillon, entree, mirepoix, roux, etc...) And so on. I don't think it's unreasonable in the slightest to leave words like lolicon in Japanese here--any hobby or interest has its jargon and its foreign loanwords.

Quote:
In all other situations, the NUANCE and INTENT should be of utmost importance before choosing a word (and as a translator, getting the intent and nuance as close as possible to the original is your damn job).
Is it used to describe a character who gets aroused by very young girls and might or might not pose a threat to them? By all means, go ahead and use it. Last week we got that example in Araburu Kisetsu.
Are the characters engaging in banter or does one of them want to ridicule or upset another? Then there are other lighter options that I've seen used: "he's/you're into kids", "pedo" or "child chaser". The disgust and "wrongness" are still there but the criminal accusation isn't.

Exactly.
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AkumaChef



Joined: 10 Jan 2019
Posts: 821
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:33 am Reply with quote
Sakagami Tomoyo wrote:
bennyl wrote:
How can it even make sense that a child is a pedophile?

The devil's in the details. If the child is a teenager and the object of their sexual desire is roughly the same age as them (to within a year or two), that's normal, no problem. Say a 16-year-old boy with a 15-year-old girlfriend, for example. But a 16-year-old attracted to a 7-year-old? Pedophile, even if they are strictly speaking still a child themselves.


What you are describing is the *legal* side of things--when a community adopts age-of-consent laws. Pedophilia is really more about the appearance than it is about age. A pedophile is sexually aroused by pre-pubescent physical characteristics. It's a matter of appearance, not actual age--which is something that Anime loves to play with given it's propensity for 500-year-old loli vampire characters, for example.

Continuing with your above example with the 16 year old boy & his 15-year-old girlfriend: we can't say anything without knowing what the 15-year-old looks like. If she's like most girls her age she certainly is starting to have post-pubescent physical characteristics: height, breasts, hips, pubic hair, etc. Being attracted to that is not pedophilia at all because those are adult physical characteristics, not those of a child.

OTOH, there are adults in their 20s who could pass for children despite being well beyond the age of consent. Someone who was attracted to a person like that (of either gender) may well be a pedophile, despite the situation being entirely legal, if the reason for that attraction is the other party's pre-pubescent appearance. What the law says and what the term Pedophile actually means are not the same thing. The law sets an arbitrary age value, the medical definition has to do with physical development.

...and that's where we get into a whole other mess because a lot of the "loli art" in anime/manga is very different from physical reality. How exactly does medicine define the attraction to a drawing of a fictional character who has a huge head:body ratio (a child-like feature), while simultaneously having a pronounced arched back and shapely hips (certainly post-pubescent features)?
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Sailor Sedna





PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:37 am Reply with quote
I'm not sure about the translation myself on terms of accuracy, but I remember an episode of the 2018 anime Chio's School Road where Chio's friend Manana lied about meeting an older guy online when she was in middle school, and when Chio found out, she said to her something like "I'm glad some lolicon bastard wasn't your first kiss/crush" or something, and that's what the subtitles said.

All I'm saying on the subject (sans the response below), lolicon is nothing I'd want to touch with a 10 foot pole.

bennyl wrote:
How can it even make sense that a child is a pedophile?

According to DSM-V in America, pedophiles have to be at least 16 and five years older than the other kid, so technically a 16 year old and a 17 year old could be one if they're attracted to others five years younger than them.
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