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EP. REVIEW: ORESUKI: Are you the only one who loves me?


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Megiddo



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:56 am Reply with quote
12skippy21 wrote:
Yeah, because that is something humans say. Confused

I imagine a better example would be a confession scene which he purposefully misinterprets it or carries on the previous conversation like nothing happened.

But ignoring someone is no longer nice. That's rude. And thus by being rude and no longer nice the issue has drifted to something else besides what Pansy has stated to be the reason for her apparent trauma. That would not be a good example. Whereas in mine he clearly understands and acknowledges the person's feelings (which is nice) but brings up that involving himself romantically with Cherry or Tsukimi would be hurting the other which he doesn't want to do. He's being nice while also flexing his will to be at the center of everything and not do anything to ruin the balance he has established.
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Gina Szanboti



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:02 pm Reply with quote
ThatGuyWhoLikesThings wrote:
Cherry and Tsukimi are completely subservient to what Hazuki wants and aren't allowed to act on their own feelings because that would interfere with his happiness. Not because that's what Hazuki asks of them, but that's would the atmosphere around him tells them to do.

I think I'm too emotionally dense to get this. The only thing preventing them from acting on their own feelings is themselves. I can't see how Hose is at fault in any of this, nor do I get why Pansy is so traumatized, let alone how Hose is responsible for it. Is he supposed to be deliberately "imperfect" so that people will feel comfortable expressing their own feelings? I'm not understanding what it is that people want him to change about his behavior.

I'm also a bit baffled by the idea that Hose doesn't understand others' feelings, when he was apparently the only one who saw that Pansy was feeling oppressed by the insincerity of those drawn only by her popularity.

I understood the criticism of harem protags who won't make a choice and keep stringing people along out of not wanting to hurt the ones not chosen. But that doesn't seem to be what Hose was doing, according to the accounts of his actions. He was in love with Pansy but apparently neither hid that from Cherry and Tsukimi, or any of the other girls trying to push her into dating him, nor creeped on Pansy who didn't return his feelings. Did Pansy tell him "not interested" in clear terms, as she's insisting he should've done with his own admirers? Or did she just say no to dating and then run away to a new school?

There's a lot of unrequited love going on in this series, but it seems to want me to blame the ones who are loved for the pain of the rejected, rather than making people responsible for their own feelings.

Next week better have a good excuse for that tag, because if they foist another heel-turn on Sun-chan, I'm throwing this whole series on the dung heap.
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ThatGuyWhoLikesThings



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:04 pm Reply with quote
Gina Szanboti wrote:
snip


I've explained it as best as I could, so instead I'll share a couple posts from the episode's thread on Reddit that can help elaborate the point better. Credit goes to Starossi because I don't want to make it seem like these are my own points lol

Quote:
Pure unadulterated selflessness turns into guilt shifting at an extreme like this.

To avoid feeling guilty for turning the girl down, you stay "selfless" and continue to respect them as friends. The result is everything seems correct for you, and youve done nothing wrong, but those girls then don't have a justification to let go or distance themselves and instead they end up being the ones who feel guilty or in debt to you. If they leave you, they look unstable or insensitive since "you haven't done anything wrong". So they have no choice but to stand by you. We see that this episode where the two girls actually feel a need to help Hose.

When it comes to feelings, no one is at "fault", as in the person rejecting the pursuer isnt wrong for not reciprocating, and the pursuers aren't wrong for feeling love. The most important part is just that everyone is free to feel how they want to feel. By being selflessness personified like this, you are leading them. You make it not an option for them to be sad about your rejection, angry at your rejection, or anything else. So yes, them being good friends and wanting to help him also isn't bad, but when it's the result of having their arms pulled so they didn't have a choice then it's more uncomfortable, which is what Joro feels is "off".

For Pansy, it's the fact that despite not reciprocating his love, she can't distance herself from him because he retains his "selfless" atmosphere. She feels indebted to him for helping her and continuing to do so even after being rejected. In a sense, he is making it impossible for her to move on from him even if she wanted to.


Quote:
I disagree that if someone has this sort of problem they talk it out, since talking it out would mean suggesting the other person, Hose, has a problem which this situation makes impossible. As for grinning and baring it, that's what most of them are doing. And it's far from ideal ofc Pansy's severe reaction is because she in particular wanted to distance herself from Hose but couldn't. It's also likely just a device because Hose is a literal opposite of Joro. If she sees and treats Joro like her savior, it makes sense she sees and treats someone like Hose as her demon.

Hose only looks reasonable because of the problem. He doesn't understand the feelings of others and prevents people from expressing them, so Pansy trying hard to avoid him isn't that odd. Though yes an entire new identity is a bit much and again I believe is just part of portraying Hose as Joro's foil

Pansy is always honest, particularly to Joro, but consider that. She's always honest to Joro, but she's not to Hose. This is again the foil. Joro makes himself open to honesty and also hate. Hose can't be criticized and is unhateable, that's the issue and the reason why Pansy treats his situation differently. It's also why he's her demon. And knowing Hose, yes he probably was super dense. Keep in mind Pansy says that everything works out conveniently for him, but no one else's feelings get considered.


Not thinking Hazuki is to blame is kind of the emotional trap because it's not even inaccurate? He is responsible for their predicament but not in a way you can seriously fault him for. He's not "wrong" in any traditional sense, which is a large part of why this situation is such a messy one with no simple solution. Because he'a perfect after all.
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Gina Szanboti



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:25 pm Reply with quote
Yeah, no, that doesn't help me. No one will say what Hose should be doing instead of what he's doing or not doing. Hose is who he is, perfect, apparently. If other people have a problem dealing with that, that's their problem, not his. There's no reason they can't just say, "I can't be around him being so perfect, I'm outta here." Hose, being perfect, will of course accept that, so he's not holding them back or twisting their arms, they're doing that to themselves. They can choose to climb down off their crosses at any time, but instead they choose to martyr themselves for the sake of not wanting to blaspheme against perfect Hose.

The explanations both in and out of the series' world keep saying it's not his fault, and won't say what he should be doing differently, but won't blame the people feeling somehow traumatized by his perfection either. So no one's at fault and no one's to blame, there's somehow just this weird organic system of everyone feeling bad because of...the mood? so I guess nothing can be done about it.
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Tanteikingdomkey
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:03 pm Reply with quote
OH boy this conversation is going to be fun.

First off I would like to point out like others have, THIS IS A COMPLICATED ISSUE WITH NO PERFECT ANSWER.

There are two major problems Pansy seems to be dealing with that explains why she feels the way she does and went to such drastic lengths to get away from.

Even if you don't understand why she went to such huge lengths it is very clear, and consistent about what she has a problem with, and why joro doesn't (normally) have that problem.

The issue that no one here seems to be mentioning. is that A LOT of people were trying to force her to be with Neo-joro. This lead to her feeling like the world was trying to FORCE HER INTO A LIFE SHE DIDN'T WANT.

Yes she has a problem with him, but she has just as big an issue with everyone around him (in her mind at least) almost UNINTENTIONALLY BRAINWASHING those around him. Everyone puts neo-joro on a pedestal and what ever he thinks must be right because he is so perfect that anything that runs contrary to him that they think/do must be wrong.

The twins both love him but, he loves pansy. Therefore it must be wrong for them to love him, since he loves someone else and it's totally not his fault they love him and he can't see that. So rather then rock the boat and go against the oppressive atmosphere he puts out, it's better if they act like him and give up themselves and their desires to create their little utopiia.

Pansy hates how he doesn't see how his kindness is destructive sometimes. but she also (and more so I think) hates how it creates (at least in her mind) a false utopia where people are not caring about themselves, but instead only care about other people.
This makes it so that people aren't actually honest about their wants and needs around neo-joro. Which when you look at episodes 1-4 and 8-11 it suddenly makes sense why pansy has said and does the things she does.

I know its odd to some people, how she reacts to a guy who is just a good person, and is super nice. But she isn't reacting to him but rather the environment/atmosphere that he unintentionally creates around him. She doesn't want to go back to that life after creating a new one of her own that she loves. You can almost think of it as an extreme case of homesickness. where she is so terrified of returning to that status quo and that old self that she wants to have nothing in her life to reconnect her to that life.


Last edited by Tanteikingdomkey on Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ThatGuyWhoLikesThings



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:34 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
No one will say what Hose should be doing instead of what he's doing or not doing. Hose is who he is, perfect, apparently. If other people have a problem dealing with that, that's their problem, not his. There's no reason they can't just say, "I can't be around him being so perfect, I'm outta here."


no one is saying what he should be doing because he's completely immune to any sort of criticism. not because he would deflect said criticism, but no one is comfortable confronting him over it because he's just that likable of a guy. in that situation, they feel that they'll look like the bad guy compared to him. his love interests feel that they must be wrong, and pansy seems to be the only one able to recognize what he's doing but feels guilty about calling him out on it. and it's not like anyone hates him. they *can't* hate him. not even pansy.

i genuinely don't think it's that difficult to understand but my brain is burnt out on making any more detailed posts so ill probably stop

Tanteikingdomkey wrote:
snip


tl;dr hose is a main character and the world around him accommodates him because of it. people's feelings, the mood, everything revolves around him, whether they like it or not. pansy tried to get away from that
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Yttrbio
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:59 pm Reply with quote
ThatGuyWhoLikesThings wrote:
Quote:
No one will say what Hose should be doing instead of what he's doing or not doing. Hose is who he is, perfect, apparently. If other people have a problem dealing with that, that's their problem, not his. There's no reason they can't just say, "I can't be around him being so perfect, I'm outta here."


no one is saying what he should be doing because he's completely immune to any sort of criticism. not because he would deflect said criticism, but no one is comfortable confronting him over it because he's just that likable of a guy. in that situation, they feel that they'll look like the bad guy compared to him. his love interests feel that they must be wrong, and pansy seems to be the only one able to recognize what he's doing but feels guilty about calling him out on it. and it's not like anyone hates him. they *can't* hate him. not even pansy.
I think what Gina is asking is specifically what YOU, as an outside observer with no skin in the game, would say that Hose should be doing differently, not whether the people in the show could say it.
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Gina Szanboti



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:27 pm Reply with quote
Gina Szanboti wrote:
The explanations both in and out of the series' world keep saying it's not his fault, and won't say what he should be doing differently


ThatGuyWhoLikesThings wrote:
no one is saying what he should be doing because he's completely immune to any sort of criticism. not because he would deflect said criticism, but no one is comfortable confronting him over it because he's just that likable of a guy.

But why are real people like you so uncomfortable in the face of his perfection that it prevents you from saying what he should be doing differently or how he should try to change? You say Pansy is "the only one able to recognize what he's doing" but what is he doing that he should stop doing? No one will say (commenters, not the characters).

I sort of get the characters' reasons for acting as they do (always easier to blame someone else for why you can't do what you need to do), though I disagree with their reasoning, but I don't get why viewers are defending their excuses by blaming Hose for being who he is while also saying it's not his fault.

I do agree with Tanteikingdomkey's point that Pansy's main problem then was everyone pressuring her to go out with him, but she still falls into the mode of blaming Hose while saying he's not to blame and not accepting that it was/is up to her to manage her own feelings, rather than his job to, somehow, make it better for her by, somehow, changing himself.

And this whole arc is completely at odds with the Pansy who was practically a mind-reader and could predict everyone's schemes and actions and move them all around like chess pieces. It's almost as if her real problem with Hose is that he's so perfect she can't find any handholds to manipulate him with as she has everyone else in this series.

edit: and Yttrbio said in five minutes what took me half an hour to say. Embarassed
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ThatGuyWhoLikesThings



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:51 pm Reply with quote
Gina Szanboti wrote:
You say Pansy is "the only one able to recognize what he's doing" but what is he doing that he should stop doing?


not a clue, because his "problem" is that he's too good of a person that everyone around him is compelled to prioritize his feelings over their own and stifle their own happiness. but how do you justify complaining to him? how do you criticize someone like that or tell him to change? "be more of a jerk."? "have more flaws."?

the worse you can say about him is that he's oblivious to the feelings of others, that he's ignorant of how the atmosphere around him makes it seem like she's obligated to be with him because of how selfless and kind he is. but where do you take that? "stop being oblivious to the fact that you're hurting others by being such a great person?" ??? that's the dilemma. that he *isn't* doing anything wrong

the other major issue is that pansy has failed to truly distance herself from him, mostly because she feels like she "owes him" for helping her so much in middle school. "ill transfer schools and hope i don't bump into him" isn't how you separate yourself from someone you're uncomfortable being around, so next episode should have her follow up on that.

Quote:
And this whole arc is completely at odds with the Pansy who was practically a mind-reader and could predict everyone's schemes and actions and move them all around like chess pieces. It's almost as if her real problem with Hose is that he's so perfect she can't find any handholds to manipulate him with as she has everyone else in this series.


the way i see it, pansy specifies in honing in on the flaws and weaknesses of others and exploiting that, but she's not omniscient. joro is frankly nothing but imperfections, so he's incredibly easy for her to get the drop on. sun-chan, himawari, and cosmos are similiarly flawed people

i think the real reason she's so anxious around him is that he put her in a weird spot when he continued to want to be friends with her even after she rejected him, where everyone around them pressured her to get with him even when she made it clear she had no interest
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Tanteikingdomkey
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:17 pm Reply with quote
I am pretty sure that pansy only actually schemes when there is fakeness going on if you get what I mean.
the first arc is all about getting everyone to drop their personas. She yells at joro when he is faking his reason for getting her another copy of her book.
And around Neo-joro everyone is always faking their emotions and responses so it is perfectly in character I think
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micah007



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:49 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Personally I think it comes across fine but an overall message which I do not think is touched on is are you responsible for other people’s emotions? I do not think we have seen a direct confession outside of Pansy, it is done indirectly or through a failed scheme. If you are not directly asked to respond to a persons emotions via a direct confession under what obligation are you under to change your behavior?


I think these are the questions that primarily bother me about this debate and are questions I'm honestly still thinking about. If Hose was a bit more overt in particular ways it would obviously be easier to condemn him, but right now his crime is the fact that he exists in the first place. I'm not even sure if he's aware the other girls like him "typical dense protagonist" but while reaction to characters like that will always be up for debate I personally wouldn't say that's particularly faultable, especially considering from what we've seen the other girls haven't made it apparent in discernible ways that they are attracted to him and I find it unfair to require him to deduce someone else's mentality when they aren't communicating effectively with you in the first place. Many criticisms of his behavior blame him for individual choices he has no control over, such as whether someone falls in love with you and whether that person chooses to voice this or at least clearly demonstrate that they have feelings for you. The counter to this is that he leaves people with no choices to begin with by his vary nature and that he's such a good person that he will always be in the right, but that argument goes right back into condemning him for existing and having a personality that is "perfect", which in this case means he's in general a good person. I honestly think Cherry, and Tsukimi are more to blame for actually manufacturing scenarios for Hose and Sumeriko to be together. It really is an interesting scenario to think about because as it has been said it's less to do with him and more to do with the environment/atmosphere he unintentionally creates.
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Gina Szanboti



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:09 am Reply with quote
ThatGuyWhoLikesThings wrote:
how do you criticize someone like that or tell him to change?

Well, the simple answer is, you don't. It's not their job to change to make you more comfortable if they're not doing anything wrong. It's your job to learn to either say up front what's bugging you, and risk people thinking you're "wrong" for feeling however you feel, or figure out how to cope with his perfection, or as a last resort, nope out with at least an apology until you're more mature.

I wonder if this arc is based on the Japanese insistence on "reading the mood," rather than speaking up? Maybe that's why it seems to be laying this all on Hose over anyone else, for his failure to read the mood (if so, then not only is he not perfect, his one imperfection is the cardinal sin for a son of Japan Smile). And maybe that's why it's not working for me, since I don't think people should have to be psychic and also take care of everyone else's feelings so they don't have to and nothing ever needs to actually be said that might cause "trouble."

Btw, good post micah007. You've articulated a lot of what I've been thinking but not saying very well.
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TexZero



Joined: 25 Oct 2017
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:30 pm Reply with quote
micah007 wrote:

I think these are the questions that primarily bother me about this debate and are questions I'm honestly still thinking about. If Hose was a bit more overt in particular ways it would obviously be easier to condemn him, but right now his crime is the fact that he exists in the first place.


Not quite what the show is saying.
What they are saying is that Hose is literally r/NiceGuys. He tries so hard to be perfect that in doing so he comes off as un-authentic and harms those around him because of his desire to be the "perfect at all cost" as opposed to just being authentic.
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micah007



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:53 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Not quite what the show is saying.
What they are saying is that Hose is literally r/NiceGuys. He tries so hard to be perfect that in doing so he comes off as un-authentic and harms those around him because of his desire to be the "perfect at all cost" as opposed to just being authentic.


He doesn't come off like that at all to me. I don't agree with the try hard aspect since to my understanding that goes against the "things just work out for him" atmosphere that was stated and at least right now he's done nothing to suggest he actively works very hard to maintain a "perfect" facade. The most active he's been was continuing to be friends with Pansy after they couldn't date, but even in real life there is nothing inherently wrong or malicious with trying to do that. Maybe I'm missing something but I'm under the impression he literally is that way....he is perfect. I can understand how someone can perceive him being un-authentic since "perfection" in this sense in real life is un-achievable. Conversely to that authentic could be seen as relative in his case since again he's supposed to be perfect. That is his authentic.
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TexZero



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:26 pm Reply with quote
micah007 wrote:

He doesn't come off like that at all to me. I don't agree with the try hard aspect since to my understanding that goes against the "things just work out for him" atmosphere that was stated and at least right now he's done nothing to suggest he actively works very hard to maintain a "perfect" facade. The most active he's been was continuing to be friends with Pansy after they couldn't date, but even in real life there is nothing inherently wrong or malicious with trying to do that. Maybe I'm missing something but I'm under the impression he literally is that way....he is perfect. I can understand how someone can perceive him being un-authentic since "perfection" in this sense in real life is un-achievable. Conversely to that authentic could be seen as relative in his case since again he's supposed to be perfect. That is his authentic.

The show does a weird job of expressing it but there's a sequence where Pansy says something to the effect of it being almost oppressive being in the shadow of something that can do nothing wrong. That's kinda the hint that while yes things naturally come to him when it comes to being nice, it's an overbearing almost unreal amount of it. No one in Pansy's mind should ever be complete and to her it comes off as unauthentic especially by comparison to everyone else who she's so easily able to read.
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