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EP. REVIEW: Fate/Grand Order Absolute Demonic Front: Babylonia


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Kisuke525



Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 131
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:31 pm Reply with quote
The Scream Man wrote:
I've only been playing the game a couple of weeks, but I feel at this point the game will be so much less interesting than this series has been i wonder if Ill bother at that stage. Maybe Ill just skip the cutscenes, I'm not sure. :/

But man the last episode was amazing.


If it's the writing and characters that interest you then I HIGHLY recommend sticking with it. The early singularities are a lot weaker than the later ones but they still have some good moments and can be pretty fun. Singularity 5 is a decent improvement over the earlier ones and singularity 6 is a MASSIVE improvement over that. Singularity 6 and everything past it is really damn good, so if you're willing to stick with it it should end up being worth it. If you do plan on sticking with it I wouldn't skip the cut scenes because the main reason to play this game is for its story and characters and even some of the early singularities set up some stuff for later in the story.

Now if you only like the series for its flashy fights and stuff then the games probably gonna be pretty disappointing because the cut scenes are pretty much just still images, so they aren't very exciting visually.

Anyway, I hope you end up sticking with the game and enjoying it!
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bhl88



Joined: 02 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:35 pm Reply with quote
If only they put Camelot first before Babylonia.

King Hassan would be more known.
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maximilianjenus



Joined: 29 Apr 2013
Posts: 2183
PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:19 am Reply with quote
I mean, having explained the concept of grand servants in this series would have improved this peisode so much; the worse is that they have had several chacnes as merlin keeps on mentioning the concept; tho I guess they will do just that next episode.
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jl07045



Joined: 30 Aug 2011
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Location: Riga, Latvia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:54 pm Reply with quote
It's rather that other goddesses have too much personality, probably since they're all incarnated. They embody chaotic forces of nature and humanity "growing up" means stopping being at the mercy of them or asking those forces for support. Yes she's contradictory, because she can't be anything but a mother that clings to her children. And when the children want to go away, she decides to make new children, because as a god that's the only thing she can do.

Rather the whole concept of Beast doesn't make all that much sense. Nasu just wanted to brainlessly squeeze in that overused Christian concept of seven sins.
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killjoy_the



Joined: 30 May 2015
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:35 pm Reply with quote
I didn't even really understand how Archer Gil showed up. I'm assuming he's not just another Servant summoned after King Gil died, but rather the same Gil. Not that I care too much about it, anyway, as soon as Merlin and Bone Daddy showed up it was pretty clear anyone could show up just because.
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bhl88



Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 249
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:22 pm Reply with quote
Gilgamesh: Screw the rules, I am the rules.
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GhostStalkerSA



Joined: 17 May 2015
Posts: 363
Location: NYC
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:29 pm Reply with quote
killjoy_the wrote:
I didn't even really understand how Archer Gil showed up. I'm assuming he's not just another Servant summoned after King Gil died, but rather the same Gil. Not that I care too much about it, anyway, as soon as Merlin and Bone Daddy showed up it was pretty clear anyone could show up just because.

Nah, it’s Servant Gil summoned in the Archer class. Someone (I’m assuming either the Counter Force or Gil himself) summoned him using King Gilgamesh’s dead body as a catalyst.
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killjoy_the



Joined: 30 May 2015
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:33 pm Reply with quote
He seemed to have King Gil's knowledge though, and (at least as far as I remember from Fate lore) Servant knowledge doesn't 'stay'. I've heard that's different in GO, but never how exactly, so that could be it applying here I suppose. I had entertained the thought that it was the Counter Force, but that's a can of worms that I never really got.
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SilverTalon01



Joined: 02 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:32 pm Reply with quote
killjoy_the wrote:
He seemed to have King Gil's knowledge though, and (at least as far as I remember from Fate lore) Servant knowledge doesn't 'stay'. I've heard that's different in GO, but never how exactly, so that could be it applying here I suppose. I had entertained the thought that it was the Counter Force, but that's a can of worms that I never really got.


Archer Gil is a servant. The human Gil we see throughout the series died as they all went down to the underworld. I guess they didn't want to interrupt the pacing to give as much explanation, but in the game it is clear human Gil died there. He just summoned a servant with the rest of his strength... which is a bit ridiculous, but it actually happens several times so...

Merlin interfering actually had a lot of foreshadowing from earlier Babylonia stuff, and King Hassan was pretty obviously going to tie in after the purpose of Grands was revealed and a Beast shows up... Unfortunately, I think some of Merlin's foreshadowing was easily overlooked as off hand comments, and anything which would have tipped you about King Hassan came from the story chapters before Babylonia.
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ThatMoonGuy



Joined: 13 Oct 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:48 am Reply with quote
jl07045 wrote:
It's rather that other goddesses have too much personality, probably since they're all incarnated. They embody chaotic forces of nature and humanity "growing up" means stopping being at the mercy of them or asking those forces for support. Yes she's contradictory, because she can't be anything but a mother that clings to her children. And when the children want to go away, she decides to make new children, because as a god that's the only thing she can do.

Rather the whole concept of Beast doesn't make all that much sense. Nasu just wanted to brainlessly squeeze in that overused Christian concept of seven sins.


Actually, its not the seven deadly sins. There are not Seven Beasts as much as there's ten since a few of them (3, 5 & 6) are split into two. Why? Because its the structure of the Sephirot.

Tbr Beasts tie into the larger narrative of the Nasu verse as adversaries of humanities grand narrative - leaving the world behind and reaching to the stars. The whole point of the Part I of FGO is that mankind must reject the Age of Gods and a past of complacency in order to advance towards its true fate. In the same vein, part II is about rejecting both utopias and dystopias, that is, hollow futures. In this context, Beasts are a direct manifestation of the things that keep mankind from advancing towards that final goal of becoming of leaving Earth behind, one such thing being the desire to regress to a time when the gods could solve our every problem.

A lot of this is expressed in Notes and Tsuki no Sango but also through the Dead Apostle Ancestor/Servant duality and the Panhuman History/Lostbelt distinction.
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jl07045



Joined: 30 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:42 am Reply with quote
Yes, I was wrong about them being the Christian sins, but they are still seven (as both Kama and Kiara embody two facets of the same concept) and embodying concepts of sinfulness. The Sephirot thing sounds like headcanon, I have not seen them associated with it in any work and such association doesn't even make sense as the Sephirot categories are emanations of God.
While advancement of humanity is a big deal, I don't see the narrative to be teleological, Nasu is just concerned about futures that lead to the death or stagnation of humanity. There's no Golden Path.
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AksaraKishou



Joined: 16 May 2015
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:36 pm Reply with quote
zrnzle500 wrote:
SilverTalon01 wrote:
Ep 19 Review wrote:
This is, ostensibly, the final battle of FGO's final singularity, so if ever there were a point to through caution to the wind and indulge in excess, it's right here.


It isn't the final singularity. This is the 7th singularity. There is one after Babylonia literally called the final singularity.


Which is why they said ostensibly. At this point in the story, the characters and the audience didn’t know there was another singularity after it.


Beside knowing they still haven't defeated Solomon...? Yeah, he's gonna back off like a good lad now that Tiamat died. <.<

Jokes aside... being "petty" is putting it mildly. But what do i know. Gonna go back to waiting for the CLEARLY more inspired adaptation of everyone's favorite mobile game, IDOLiSH7.
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ThatMoonGuy



Joined: 13 Oct 2017
Posts: 148
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:18 am Reply with quote
jl07045 wrote:
Yes, I was wrong about them being the Christian sins, but they are still seven (as both Kama and Kiara embody two facets of the same concept) and embodying concepts of sinfulness. The Sephirot thing sounds like headcanon, I have not seen them associated with it in any work and such association doesn't even make sense as the Sephirot categories are emanations of God.
While advancement of humanity is a big deal, I don't see the narrative to be teleological, Nasu is just concerned about futures that lead to the death or stagnation of humanity. There's no Golden Path.


The coherent narratives in Melty Blood, Notes, Mahoyo and Fate/Extra seem to think differently. The death of the world and its hatred towards the primates who outlived it has always been a recurring topic on Type-Moon as much as the conflict between villains who want to avoid the future destruction of humanity (Zepia, The Lion King, spoiler[Solomon]) and those who work to survive day by day. I mean, Archetype Earth itself talks about this onscreen during her route in MBAACC and the whole point of the death of magic and mystery and of the nature of mages as outdated beings only makes sense if read in the lenses of a grand narrative of a humanity. The whole point of DAA not existing in worlds where Servants exist seems to be all about the Affirmarion/Denial of panhuman history (which, by the way, is heavily implied when a character in FSF outright states that Dead Apostles are opposite to the Human Order). It all ties back to the land of steel and Tiamat's fall being called the Leaving of the cradle builds into that.

About the Sephirot link, I'd argue that it is real. The numbers match and, more than that, it's important to remember that the Seven Beasts are a reflection of the Seven Grand Servants which are called Crown (Keter). Kabbalah is also tied to Jewish mysticism which is the basis of magecraft in the Nasu verse as it all comes from the Solomonic System. Finally, the Evils build up to the Seventh and are not Sins as much as they are Evils in a Buddhist sense, things that lead to attachment and delusion, which do have very different connotations.
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jl07045



Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 1509
Location: Riga, Latvia
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:23 am Reply with quote
I don't want to engage in lorehumping much, since I'm mostly past that. Nasu has employed retconning and rpgizing enough that I've stopped believing he is interested in very coherent metaphysics, despite him recently venturing into much more abstract and thus boring "humanity, fudge yeah" stories (Extra and fgo being prime examples).

Some comments though.
When I say not teleological, I mean there isn't any specific end goal that would ascribe meaning to human existence. There are just paths along scientific progress and death of magic that humanity can take. Some of them are dead ends. Wanting to avoid that is a typical story you can give a villain to try and make them sympathetic.

Kabbalah is just one of many majutsu schools and I have not seen anywhere that it claims primacy just because it shares birthplace with Solomon. Is Sephirot even mentioned in association with him? Historically Kabbalah only dates to middle ages. Obv if fgo materials or smth say that Kabbalah is based on Solomon's majutsu, fine.

You just said that there are 10 beasts corresponding to sephirot. Seven grand servants are simply summoned to oppose a single beast, so I don't see a reflection. Also if beasts are Evils in a Buddhist sense, why is there Sephirot involved at all? Buddhist and Jewish metaphysics are not compatible.
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ThatMoonGuy



Joined: 13 Oct 2017
Posts: 148
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:31 pm Reply with quote
jl07045 wrote:
I don't want to engage in lorehumping much, since I'm mostly past that. Nasu has employed retconning and rpgizing enough that I've stopped believing he is interested in very coherent metaphysics, despite him recently venturing into much more abstract and thus boring "humanity, fudge yeah" stories (Extra and fgo being prime examples).


I'd just argue about this being new. That was a topic since his first stories (see, again, Notes but also the drafts of Tsukihime 2). I do dislike the direction that a lot of Fate works have taken (Sefar, Moon Cell, the whole Lostbelt idea) but one can't say that wasn't there before. Dark Six, The Sixth Law/Magic that Zepia tried to Reach, Types, ORT, Archetype Earth, even the Beasts have always been around. The ideas where always there, Extra and FGO just put them on the forefront.

Some comments though.
jl07045 wrote:
When I say not teleological, I mean there isn't any specific end goal that would ascribe meaning to human existence. There are just paths along scientific progress and death of magic that humanity can take. Some of them are dead ends. Wanting to avoid that is a typical story you can give a villain to try and make them sympathetic.


I'd argue that the narrative intentionally leads to the death of magic and the growth of human civilization into a space-faring civilization. It's the Tiamat narrative, basically, with humans facing off against the overbearing mother who, in this case, is the Earth itself.

jl07045 wrote:
Kabbalah is just one of many majutsu schools and I have not seen anywhere that it claims primacy just because it shares birthplace with Solomon. Is Sephirot even mentioned in association with him? Historically Kabbalah only dates to middle ages. Obv if fgo materials or smth say that Kabbalah is based on Solomon's majutsu, fine.


Not only Kabbalah, the whole tradition of magecraft originated with Solomon, that's said in FGO.



jl07045 wrote:
You just said that there are 10 beasts corresponding to sephirot. Seven grand servants are simply summoned to oppose a single beast, so I don't see a reflection. Also if beasts are Evils in a Buddhist sense, why is there Sephirot involved at all? Buddhist and Jewish metaphysics are not compatible.


I used to think that the Seven Against One was the idea as well but the instances of Grand Servants we've seen have always been 1x1. There are Seven beasts, but some of them are split and the fact that the ones that are split (so far) match the divisions of the Kabbalah seems to create a connection. You're right that this is not stated, though. It's a theory much like my theory about the Dark Six, Six Sisters, the Sixt Law and the Sixth Magic being the same thing is just an hypothesis. I think I failed to make this clear so far.

As for why the Beasts would be evil in a buddhist sense while following a system based on Kabbalah is the same why a lot of time Servants and mages act in ways that are closer to japanese expectations and according to japanese logic than to their own native rationale. That's because Nasu himself is heavily influenced by buddhist ideas, which is clear since Kara no Kyoukai but even more in Mahoyo. Even when working with ostensibly western concepts and magic, the underlying logic isn't so much western as it is Nasu's blend of buddhism, shinto, occultism and weird sci-fi. The evils aren't explicitly based on the buddhist evils/poisons but the way they work (as something that causes pain by attachment) is essentially buddhist.[/spoiler]
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