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EP. REVIEW: Fate/Grand Order Absolute Demonic Front: Babylonia


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zrnzle500
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:45 pm Reply with quote
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Whew, it's been a while, but it's time to dig back into Babylonia. As an aside, I was on vacation in Japan for the past couple weeks, which I mention not as an excuse for the lack of reviews (although that is the excuse)[...]


No problem, that's understandable. The only thing I would ask is that you give us a heads up about that kind of thing that might lead to a delay, within the review prior to the event or vacation or whatever, so we know what's going on with the reviews and aren't left to speculate about the cause of the delay or when they might return.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:14 pm Reply with quote
I was just about to post asking if the reviews were cancelled too.

Episode 8 makes episode 22 of Apocrypha look even worse. You can have amazing animation and not make the rest of the episode look like crap.
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jr240483



Joined: 24 Dec 2005
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Location: New York City,New York,USA
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:45 am Reply with quote
zrnzle500 wrote:
Quote:
Whew, it's been a while, but it's time to dig back into Babylonia. As an aside, I was on vacation in Japan for the past couple weeks, which I mention not as an excuse for the lack of reviews (although that is the excuse)[...]


No problem, that's understandable. The only thing I would ask is that you give us a heads up about that kind of thing that might lead to a delay, within the review prior to the event or vacation or whatever, so we know what's going on with the reviews and aren't left to speculate about the cause of the delay or when they might return.


which should not be an issue. they pretty much have the right to decide on whether or not a review is being cancelled or telling the community that it is.

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It's a very cute way to once more communicate to the audience that this is not the Gil from Fate/stay night.


not quite. especially in ep 4 when he called them "mongrels"! and even though he does interact with his subjects in the game and in the anime, his crapload arrogance of his definitely have hints that he have a connection with FSN's gill.

sure i DEFINITELY know that its NOT the case since i have played the game but if it did happened and it became canon, i would had to guess he is somewhat similar or at least conntected to the gill from FSN's fate/avalon route!
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zrnzle500
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:42 pm Reply with quote
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There are intentional shades of KONOSUBA's infamously useless goddess woven into this tapestry, but Babylonia also takes time to remind us that Ishtar is a competent fighter and a powerful ally when it comes down to it.


I mean, Aqua is shown to be a competent fighter and powerful ally when it comes to fighting the undead at least, but Ishtar is perhaps more consistently shown to be such than Aqua. I do think Ishtar bears more resemblance to Aqua than the other goddess compared to her this season, Ristarte.

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In true Fate fashion, we spend entirely too much time dwelling on the magical lore and explanation behind Ishtar's manifestation, when a simple “we wanted fans of Rin to spend money” would have sufficed. Yes, that's flippant of me, but I respect the hustle of the whole Pseudo-Servant concept, and I'd respect FGO a lot more if it were honest about it. [...] Arguably, we all needed some space to breathe after last week's episode, but I continue to wish that the anime would be more prudent about cutting and consolidating FGO's tendency towards rambling exposition.


While I won't say I don't understand where that is coming from, I don't really think it would be sufficient or wise to replace the in-universe explanation for Rin's presence in the story with "the developers wanted to appeal to fans of feet...I mean, Rin" or something like that. That might fly in the more comedic events or Learning with Manga, but outside that, it is just a non-sequitur in-universe. It'd be like if a slice of life show had a blond foreigner character explain that they were in Japan because "the creators of the series think Japanese people find foreigners interesting, as well as to diversify the range of hair colors", instead of "My parents moved here for work". It is perhaps more "honest" about the reasons the character was included in the show, but it doesn't suffice as an explanation to the other characters why they are there and just kind of takes you out of it. Sure the reason she was included in the game isn't the same as the in-universe explanation, but those are rarely equivalent in any story. To me, forgoing actually integrating a character into the story for a meta joke would seem more like a ploy to appeal to the cynicism of some fans and critics than prudent storytelling or adaptation. Not that that kind of cynical meta humor doesn't have its place (like the aforementioned Learning with Manga), but I don't know that a character introduction in the main storyline is it.
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jl07045



Joined: 30 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:01 am Reply with quote
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I'm not quite sure why they gloss over the rather horrific fact that it was Poseidon raping Medusa that angered Athena in the first place, because that'd go a long way towards further establishing this incarnation of Gorgon as an avatar of her vengeance.


The only actual fact here is that Ovid wrote Medusa that way. Typemoon has always borrowed liberally from various versions of myths to portray their characters the way they wish and find appropriate for the intended goal of the narrative.
This is not the type of story that focuses deeply on the characters. It's a fantasy adventure romp, so how would throwing it out there that, oh, she was also raped, help the narrative? It would either trivialise the issue or put Babylonia into a distracting mood swing. Do you really want a rape victim and Jaguar Man in the same story?

All that aside from the fact that Medusa's backstory was already established in Hollow Ataraxia.
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XerBlade
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Joined: 11 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:47 am Reply with quote
Steve Jones wrote:
the half-god half-human Gilgamesh

Actually, two-thirds god one-third human.

Because Gil screws the rules. He has Golden Rule.
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Panayiotis



Joined: 02 Aug 2017
Posts: 66
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:01 am Reply with quote
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Fate, however, is nothing if not consistently weird and disappointing about the way it treats victimized and “monstrous” women

I did not realize that this was a thing. I could probably come up with some theories myself, but I'm curious to know what is the lefty twitter consensus on what the problem is.
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Cloudywind



Joined: 14 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:34 pm Reply with quote
Well, I'm confused now. Between this and the "This Week in Anime" column, if I am not mistaken, people are simultaneously upset that Gorgon is a "victim of persecution seeks revenge" character, while also being upset that Gorgon is not SUFFICIENTLY victimized for their liking.

In any case, Fate has more than its fair share of "persecuted" women who aren't written as then going on crazy monster revenge rampages (Jeanne, Marie Antoinette, Boudica, Tamamo, Fran, Anastasia, Ushiwakamaru, to name a few). Meanwhie on the male side for persecuted people who then go postal we have Angra Mainyu, Lobo, Salieri, Dantes, in a way Berserker Lancelot, and from Tsukihime the original SHIKI on Far Side routes.

I don't think it's necessary to try to read too deeply into there being a common thread of a "problem" between Fujino, Kohaku, Sakura, Medea, Gorgon and Kiara other than that they share some themes, and reusing themes isn't uncommon for a writer.
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maximilianjenus



Joined: 29 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:24 pm Reply with quote
I rememeber way back when quetz got datamined; I was very worried how it was going to get represented. A friend guessed feathered-serpent animal, while the worse case was a native american/mexican. It was very nice haivng quetz as a (tanned) nordic woman; it reminded me that nasu does his job and actually researched into quetz instead of using a generic native look. A big deal of quetz legend is that he is an outsider, a white european dude and part of the reason he gets expelled by the other priests is because of that (and stopping human sacrifices), his last propohecy is about him telling the natives that people like him (white europeans) willcome from the sea and will conquer them.
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jl07045



Joined: 30 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:14 am Reply with quote
The core premise of the franchise is wizards engaging in a deathmatch, using the great figures of history and myth as proxies, in order to surpass their own humanity (note the irony in their goals).
I guess you could call that silly if you ignore the context in which the premise is framed in most of Fate works. Imo this just shows how much FGO has come to dominate the image of the franchise.
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Cloudywind



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:55 am Reply with quote
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The opening sakuga salvo is short but very sweet, although it's marred by an unfortunate translation mistake. Fate-verse Enkidu is canonically nonbinary (their gender in the game's bio is literally listed as “-“), and the game's English translation uses they/them pronouns for our clay friend, so Gilgamesh shouldn't be saying “he” in reference to them. Funimation still has the wrong translation at the time of writing, but hopefully it gets fixed soon.

Gilgamesh literally calls Enkidu 男 ("otoko", "man") in that scene, it's not the translator's fault and not a translation mistake.

I don't think Enkidu, genderless as they are, has ever expressed any particular preference for pronouns either. The translation of the bio in game uses them and they because it's the most appropriately neutral given Enkidu's genderless state, but they never punched Gil in the face for misgendering or anything. So one may as well just translate what Gil says if Gil chooses to address them as male instead of papering over it.

Heck, based on their bond dialogue lines from the game and their first interlude, Enkidu identifies as a weapon, or a system, first and foremost, and explicitly not as a human. I doubt they would even give the slightest toss what pronouns you, let alone Gilgamesh, call them.

Other Servants in Fate GO with genders listed as something other than "male" or "female":
Astolfo:
Quote:
"???"
As As per Astolfo's request, their gender is a secret.

Chevalier d'Eon
Quote:
"?"
Sometimes a man, sometimes a woman, they are able to change their physiology.

Old Man of the Mountain
Quote:
"???"

Qin Shi Huang
Quote:
"We" (朕)
(as in the "royal we". QSH's main body by the point of LB3 is a giant mechanized floating castle in the sky running on mercury and feng shui, and their humanoid body is a genderless construct based on taoist voodoo with some pseudo-True Ancestor thrown in)

Anyway Enkidu is the only one to have "-" in the Gender field instead of a question mark or an emperor meme.

edit: footnote, the general term for non-binary persons in Japan is "X-gender", not "-" or "?".
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jr240483



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:21 pm Reply with quote
jl07045 wrote:
Quote:
I'm not quite sure why they gloss over the rather horrific fact that it was Poseidon raping Medusa that angered Athena in the first place, because that'd go a long way towards further establishing this incarnation of Gorgon as an avatar of her vengeance.


The only actual fact here is that Ovid wrote Medusa that way. Typemoon has always borrowed liberally from various versions of myths to portray their characters the way they wish and find appropriate for the intended goal of the narrative.
This is not the type of story that focuses deeply on the characters. It's a fantasy adventure romp, so how would throwing it out there that, oh, she was also raped, help the narrative? It would either trivialise the issue or put Babylonia into a distracting mood swing. Do you really want a rape victim and Jaguar Man in the same story?

All that aside from the fact that Medusa's backstory was already established in Hollow Ataraxia.


but thats the quandry here. its been stated by some people that F/GO shouldnt have any connection with the FSN universe, but here we are again when it comes not only medusa, but another hint which some F/GO players alongside granblue fantasy gamers have a pet peeve of the anime versions!

Quote:


However genuine these little moments between Ishtar and Ritsuka end up feeling, though, it's still hard not to roll my eyes at the transparency of the harem antics.


you REALLY cant be surprised by this at all my friend!

for one thing this is a fate series , which unlike F/Z, Apocrypha and extra, F/GO have an MC who more or less have the EXACT same personality as Fate/Hollow Ataraxia's Shiro Emiya so the psuedo harem antics will be apparent! and with the inclusion of the tsundere goddess ishtar/rin, its going to be more in common than ever in the anime considering that the original rin have a fondness of boys like shiro & fugimaru, which in turn have been one of the pet peeves for gamers of BOTH F/GO & Granblue Fantasy!

BOTH anime versions are clearly using the transparency of those potential harem scenarios deliberately when the video games had ZERO TRANSPARENCY of those psuedo harem antics.

personally it shouldnt be an issue, but keep it too long then eventually F/GO will have the same quandry scenario as akamatsu did when it came to seperating their new projects (F/GO & UQ HOLDER) from their original sister series (FSN & Negima)
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dark_bozu



Joined: 03 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:51 pm Reply with quote
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harem antics

I don't think it actually works in FGO (anime), considering that those servants won't return to our world with us. So, it's not romantical love, but simple affection and respect, looks more like a friendship.
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Zerreth



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:57 pm Reply with quote
jr240483 wrote:

Quote:


However genuine these little moments between Ishtar and Ritsuka end up feeling, though, it's still hard not to roll my eyes at the transparency of the harem antics.


you REALLY cant be surprised by this at all my friend!

for one thing this is a fate series , which unlike F/Z, Apocrypha and extra, F/GO have an MC who more or less have the EXACT same personality as Fate/Hollow Ataraxia's Shiro Emiya so the psuedo harem antics will be apparent! and with the inclusion of the tsundere goddess ishtar/rin, its going to be more in common than ever in the anime considering that the original rin have a fondness of boys like shiro & fugimaru, which in turn have been one of the pet peeves for gamers of BOTH F/GO & Granblue Fantasy!

BOTH anime versions are clearly using the transparency of those potential harem scenarios deliberately when the video games had ZERO TRANSPARENCY of those psuedo harem antics.

personally it shouldnt be an issue, but keep it too long then eventually F/GO will have the same quandry scenario as akamatsu did when it came to seperating their new projects (F/GO & UQ HOLDER) from their original sister series (FSN & Negima)


This could've all been avoided had they used the female protagonist instead of the male but all we get is a cameo nod:

P.S. I know. It's not the same animation team, but ultimately First Order seems to have established the canon that subsequent productions would follow.
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dark_bozu



Joined: 03 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:59 pm Reply with quote
jr240483 wrote:
F/GO shouldnt have any connection with the FSN universe,

Nope, it has connections with Nasuverse (FSN's universe), but none connection with FSN story at all. If you're talking about Jaguar man (warrior), then there's an explanation - though it's obvious that all pseudo-servants are implemented because TM fans that play FGO want them in game. Just look at top-10 of most desirable servants - Arcueid, Shiro-Muramasa, Kirei-Rasputin.
Jaguar's profile in FGO complete material.
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