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EP. REVIEW: Sword Art Online: Alicization - War of Underworld


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Kratos Aurion



Joined: 23 Dec 2019
Posts: 1
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:21 pm Reply with quote
The Fairy its Yuna the Boy its Eiji. I Have this See Season3 on OP 1 and Op War of Underworld. This

Youtube say its Yuna and Eiji.

The SAO Movie Canon not Filler.

See this in SAO Season 3 Ep 1-2 Kureha and Zeliska
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DerekL1963
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:31 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
DerekL1963 wrote:
spoiler[But the folks on Reddit are pointing towards a pair of short stories published on the Japanese BD of Ordinal Scale that makes them think it's Eiji and diva-Yuuna]

I could maybe see the former, but in the latter case I'd want some explanation for how that could happen. spoiler[That Yuuna was toast at the end of the movie.]


spoiler[AIUI there are three different Yuuna's, not two.

- Shigemura Yuuna, who died in Aincrad.
- "Ghost" Yuuna, the AI Yuuna who sacrificed herself at the end of Ordinal Scale.
- "Diva" Yuuna, a Yui type AI who fronted as an idol as part of Dr. Shigemura's schemes.

The revival of the last as a pixie is the subject of the second of the two short stories.

It confuses me too, as the movie kinda lead me to believe the last two were actually the same in different forms.]
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Key
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:20 pm Reply with quote
^
Yeah, it would make a lot more sense if the two are entirely separate, and as the other poster mentioned, they are shown very briefly at the beginning of the OP (albeit with the one at full size instead of pixie size). If they do get it involved then it would definitely be a retrofit, but that could certainly spice things up through the last quarter.
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zztop



Joined: 28 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:48 pm Reply with quote
I recall the author stating in their afterwords the Japan vs USA player thing came from the original webnovel version, a reflection of Japan's gaming era when local players were less accepting of foreign gamers on their servers.

Although he's aware that plot point has aged poorly since then and attempted to rewrite it, he couldn't think of any better alternatives without compromising the story and decided to just keep it in.
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Hiroki not Takuya



Joined: 17 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:01 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
Japan-vs.-America mode ... Lizbeth also gets her most brightly-shining moment maybe since her feature episode in the first series. She has the hardest of sells... given the potential risks and costs involved with what she's asking for,... why Alice is special: she is the culmination and perhaps ultimate goal not just of what Rath is doing but of Kayaba's SEED (and perhaps all of the VR experience) in general.
I thought the WWII call-back with American Gamer dialog providing pointed commentary was an interesting if odd choice and came off to me sounding like subtle propaganda for something. While I love Lizbeth and have been aching to see her be something else than a forlorn member of the Kirito non-harem, it seemed to me way out of character for her to be making a speech like that. Shino/Sinon I could see.

Also, it seems a little over-blown that "character loss" would be that huge a personal deal that few-to-none would risk it. That just seems like a lame strawman to force drama which is lame because there is literally no game where the avatar, skills, quests and items are irrevocably lost. If the account is deleted or game completely reset somehow, it will take some time but one can retrace steps and get back to about the same condition. Reki Kawahara has been criticized for not being particularly knowledgeable about gaming and I think this shows it.

But Alice being the goal of the creation of all VR worlds and outcome of all of people's VR experiences? Sorry, I can't imagine more of a logical stretch or overblown non-sequitur. One could say the VR-hardware research that produced SAO and the rest had culmination in the discovery and creation of Fluctlichts (souls) but that had essentially nothing to do with Alice. Creation of a self-deterministic AI like Alice? All the denizens of Underworld are that, Yui as well. How exactly did the SEED lead inexorably to the existence of Alice? None of it follows.
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everydaygamer



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:46 pm Reply with quote
Hiroki not Takuya wrote:


Also, it seems a little over-blown that "character loss" would be that huge a personal deal that few-to-none would risk it. That just seems like a lame strawman to force drama which is lame because there is literally no game where the avatar, skills, quests and items are irrevocably lost. If the account is deleted or game completely reset somehow, it will take some time but one can retrace steps and get back to about the same condition. Reki Kawahara has been criticized for not being particularly knowledgeable about gaming and I think this shows it.


When you have put 100+ hours into a character you tend to grow attached. It is not as simple as just starting over because you are never gonna have the same experiences you had with that first character those are irreplaceable.
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DerekL1963
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:01 am Reply with quote
Hiroki not Takuya wrote:
Also, it seems a little over-blown that "character loss" would be that huge a personal deal that few-to-none would risk it. That just seems like a lame strawman to force drama which is lame because there is literally no game where the avatar, skills, quests and items are irrevocably lost. If the account is deleted or game completely reset somehow, it will take some time but one can retrace steps and get back to about the same condition.


Seven years ago, when City of Heroes was shut down, I was devastated. This past summer I started playing the unofficial (but tacitly accepted by officialdom) reborn game... The mechanical retracting and rebuilding of my old mains was easy enough, but it was wearying to my soul to tread the same steps again. It was emotionally difficult too, constantly frustrating because I wasn't what I had been and a mountain of work remained ahead of me. Frankly, I came *this* close to just quitting again. If I hadn't started a completely new character on a whim and seen the world through "new" eyes, I just might have.

And while I was (am) passionate as hell about CoH - it's not the lived experienced that has been depicted as the world of VRMMO players. (Especially the SAO survivors.)

So, yeah, I get it. Character loss isn't easy, and I think you dismiss it too lightly.
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Key
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:41 am Reply with quote
Hiroki not Takuya wrote:
Also, it seems a little over-blown that "character loss" would be that huge a personal deal that few-to-none would risk it. That just seems like a lame strawman to force drama which is lame because there is literally no game where the avatar, skills, quests and items are irrevocably lost. If the account is deleted or game completely reset somehow, it will take some time but one can retrace steps and get back to about the same condition. Reki Kawahara has been criticized for not being particularly knowledgeable about gaming and I think this shows it.

On top of what DerekL1963 said about this, let's also keep in mind that Underworld isn't a game - literally. (In fact, that's going to be a major plot point over the next few episodes.) Also, the people who are supposed to be in control of it aren't, and this is supposed to be a top-secret project on top of that. There are complications here which go way beyond what you're talking about.

Quote:
But Alice being the goal of the creation of all VR worlds and outcome of all of people's VR experiences? Sorry, I can't imagine more of a logical stretch or overblown non-sequitur. One could say the VR-hardware research that produced SAO and the rest had culmination in the discovery and creation of Fluctlichts (souls) but that had essentially nothing to do with Alice. Creation of a self-deterministic AI like Alice? All the denizens of Underworld are that, Yui as well. How exactly did the SEED lead inexorably to the existence of Alice? None of it follows.

To be clear, Alice specifically wasn't the goal, but rather an existence like Alice was: a bottom-up-developed AI, rather than a top-down-developed one like Yui. (Although this is explained some in Asuna's confrontation of Kikuoka on the Ocean Turtle back in the first half, the novels are clearer on this.) Because a bottom-up AI develops more organically, it has capabilities that a top-down AI (developed primarily through data analysis) doesn't when it comes to reasoning and especially creativity, and success at developing that is signified here by the ability to act beyond system constraints. Eugeo also proved that he was one by breaking his eye seal, but the time frame between him emerging and him dying was so short in the outside world that it went unnoticed. Same with the Dark Knight who tried to take out Vecta. There have already been hints of other cases in the works as well.

In other words, Alice is getting the attention because she was the first and the only one to this point known to the outside world, not because she is the only one.

As an interesting side point, you can see Kawahara going back and laying a foundation for this back in even the early stages of Aincard in the Progressive novels
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DerekL1963
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:30 am Reply with quote
Key wrote:
^
Yeah, it would make a lot more sense if the two are entirely separate, and as the other poster mentioned, they are shown very briefly at the beginning of the OP (albeit with the one at full size instead of pixie size). If they do get it involved then it would definitely be a retrofit, but that could certainly spice things up through the last quarter.


Went and looked... and Heathcliff, Yuuki, and Eugeo are in that same sequence. So, it's hard to tell how much stock to put into the OP.

Though I have to admit, I wouldn't find it farfetched for Kayaba to put in an appearance...
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Pedram



Joined: 31 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:30 am Reply with quote
Hiroki not Takuya wrote:
it seemed to me way out of character for her to be making a speech like that.


to be honest it didn't seems out of character to me, but maybe that's another thing that anime did not convey and I have a different mindset due to the novels.

There is way too many small things skipped or simplified in the anime regarding characters depth in SAO sadly.

Hiroki not Takuya wrote:

Also, it seems a little over-blown that "character loss" would be that huge a personal deal that few-to-none would risk it. That just seems like a lame strawman to force drama which is lame because there is literally no game where the avatar, skills, quests and items are irrevocably lost. If the account is deleted or game completely reset somehow, it will take some time but one can retrace steps and get back to about the same condition.

Reki Kawahara has been criticized for not being particularly knowledgeable about gaming and I think this shows it.


First of all, I'm guessing you never played an MMORPG for a long time and didn't get invested in it, but I would be depressed for life if I lost my WoW character and would never do anything to risk losing it.

All the times I spent and memories I made, all the items, transmogs, titles and achievements and everything I earned. many of which were event specific and are not obtainable anymore.

Lastly, The whole "criticism" about Reki not knowing about games is so completely out of context and untrue.

Not only he was very knowledgeable of games when he write the story, but he also was ahead of his time... if you read his old comments on his webnovel or some interview, sometimes he even give you clear reference of where he got his inspiration of X ability in SAO from, and sometimes they are like.. a special ability of a class in Ragnarok Online, or sometimes they are from UltimaOnline,

The thing that make some people think Reki didn't knew much of games, is because they are comparing his old works with new games.

He write SAO Aincrad to Alicization from 2001 to 2008. so it reflect the mechanism of games in those times.

Read his SAO Progressive (2012+) or Unital Ring(2018+) ( the Arc after Alicization ) they reflect the mechanism of new games and they go so in detail too... including the exploits and tricks that only a real gamer with a lot of time spent on gaming can recognize.

Hiroki not Takuya wrote:

How exactly did the SEED lead inexorably to the existence of Alice?


Even Yui herself is the culmination of The Seed and the SAO incident.

Yui's whole existence would not be what she is if not because she had monitored and analyzed the life and emotional states of 10,000 players over 2 years of imprisonment in Aincrad.

It's those data and their accumulation is what created the human like Yui we see right now.

Extremely human-like AI like yui which Cardinal could create back in SAO, was all thanks to the huge amount of monitored data received by the SAO Players' daily life. and those data are also not lost and became part of The Seed... possible master plan of Kayaba that might get revealed more later on.

Alice herself is not the goal, but the creation of a real bottom-down AI is the next phase in that regard and Alice is the one that Rath noticed so far. ( in fact, Eugeo was the first but he died like 43 second in real world after he broke his seal and that ~43 second was while Rath was under attack by American, so nobody noticed him... )
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Pedram



Joined: 31 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:42 am Reply with quote
Key wrote:
DerekL1963 wrote:
spoiler[But the folks on Reddit are pointing towards a pair of short stories published on the Japanese BD of Ordinal Scale that makes them think it's Eiji and diva-Yuuna]

I could maybe see the former, but in the latter case I'd want some explanation for how that could happen. spoiler[That Yuuna was toast at the end of the movie.]



To get the answer to your question, I suggest reading the Bonus story they released in Japan's Ordinal Scale Theaters and DVD/BDs.

Since they are not licensed at all anywhere atm, fan translation is not illegal, so I think it's fine to link them here, but just to be safe, I won't link them,

But just googling "Hopeful Chant" or "Cordial Chords" will bring them to you.

Both of them are about Eiji and Yuna.

First one happening in Aincrad ~floor 30 from Asuna and Eiji's PoV.
IIRC it happened between Sachi's death and before Christmas event, so it happen in the middle of EP3 of SAO Season 1.
2nd one happens after Ordinal Scale Movie, from Kirito and Eiji's PoV.

DerekL1963 wrote:

Went and looked... and Heathcliff, Yuuki, and Eugeo are in that same sequence. So, it's hard to tell how much stock to put into the OP.

Though I have to admit, I wouldn't find it farfetched for Kayaba to put in an appearance...


Who knows, all of them might appear in some form, maybe not physically or in reality, but in from of memory or encouragement.

Remember Yuuki appearing in Ordinal Scale Movie when Asuna used Mother's Rosario ?

Yuuki and Eugeo might be like Asuna and Kirito's Stand at this point lol
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Zerreth



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:49 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
Hiroki not Takuya wrote:
Also, it seems a little over-blown that "character loss" would be that huge a personal deal that few-to-none would risk it. That just seems like a lame strawman to force drama which is lame because there is literally no game where the avatar, skills, quests and items are irrevocably lost. If the account is deleted or game completely reset somehow, it will take some time but one can retrace steps and get back to about the same condition. Reki Kawahara has been criticized for not being particularly knowledgeable about gaming and I think this shows it.

On top of what DerekL1963 said about this, let's also keep in mind that Underworld isn't a game - literally. (In fact, that's going to be a major plot point over the next few episodes.) Also, the people who are supposed to be in control of it aren't, and this is supposed to be a top-secret project on top of that. There are complications here which go way beyond what you're talking about.

I've always try to keep an open mind regarding SAO but I feel like there's always some point each season at which I go "Okay, this goes far beyond how much I can suspend my disbelief" and it's pretty much hit that point for me this season with this episode.

Setting aside PMC Americans who can't read English, it just seems completely outrageous that suddenly bringing in tens of thousands of wireless connections overseas to an isolated closed system would not somehow inadvertantly incur a horrible DOS to backfire.This hackerman is somehow able to now develop a system more robust than Accel World with more primitive technology in the span of a few hours? Wasn't the entire point of the Ocean Turtle's existence to run a standalone, disconnected environment that could host the cluster of data cubes autonomously? Also, aren't the PMCs on borrowed time? Scaling back the ratio would reduce the amount of total time they had to actually retrieve Alice.

There's a talking point about how it would be an issue to bring up the situation to japanese authorities, but somehow publicly opening this secret environment isn't an issue to the American contractors? All anyone has to do on the Human Empire side is fire an AoE attack at the players logging in, forcing everyone else to try to rage quit this "imbalanced, trash game" only to realize they can't and now you easily have a manufactured international scandal. Considering the speed at which SAO was considered a major issue, this does not seem like a viable course of action.

Furthermore, why would so many dark knights be a threat in the first place? Wasn't the main issue for the Human Empire side that there's not enough time to build quality characters because the time differential is now 1:1? It wouldn't matter if the Dark Empire players are more experienced or skilled (they're not, that's not how human capital and statistics works) if they can get one shot like all the other faceless soldiers because of their low character level. How does this leveling issue not magically affect the Dark empire side? And why is it taking so long to cut ropes when they have someone who can throw swords to an indeterminable distance?

I understand that some of these questions could be answered in the novels but I believe that's part of the issue at hand. The overarching story aside, the anime is seemingly rushing plot points forward to condense and build up drama but doesn't provide any sort of time nor means to establish rules, restrictions or explanations for wold building to allow viewers to appreciate the issues at hand, and I can't tell if it's the fault of the scenario writers who are rushing these points or the original work. I want to enjoy SAO because I see the potential but I'm hitting that "goodness this is frustrating to watch" level, especially when it decides to spend about half an episode to absolutely make sure the viewers have full understanding of Kirito's harem in this adventure and gloss over setting up a foundation for the world.
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Hiroki not Takuya



Joined: 17 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:52 pm Reply with quote
Pedram wrote:
... First of all, I'm guessing you never played an MMORPG for a long time and didn't get invested in it, but I would be depressed for life if I lost my WoW character and would never do anything to risk losing it. All the times I spent and memories I made, all the items, transmogs, titles and achievements and everything I earned. many of which were event specific and are not obtainable anymore.

Lastly, The whole "criticism" about Reki not knowing about games is so completely out of context and untrue...The thing that make some people think Reki didn't knew much of games, is because they are comparing his old works with new games...He write SAO Aincrad to Alicization from 2001 to 2008. so it reflect the mechanism of games in those times....
Also @DerekL1963 clearly you guys are much more into such games as I and I haven't run into those who are, so I guess it isn't as far fetched as I thought. I played Skyrim for awhile and know someone who got an account deleted but recovered so I see how that worked but realize there are a bunch of online games different from it. Event-specific items aside, my view was that the memories and experiences don't just go away so having to redo an avatar and re-joining guilds and such shouldn't be that big a deal. While underworld isn't a full game, the players being asked to join come from games where they could recover avatars, etc.

As for Lizbeth, not being a complete SAO-phile playing all the games, side stories, novels, manga, etc. I only have the anime to go on and from what I saw of her, she is a reserved person who doesn't often speak or act boldly. I can't assume character development unfortunately but that would be the anime's fault, "everyone" loves Kirito x Asuna and since the writers know that, that is what the story is concentrating on.

As for Reki's gamership, I take my info from others who were gaming in the time you mention so I don't think it's out of context or completely unfair but of course they are differing opinions. I actually have tried to shy away from much criticism as the point of SAO as a story was clearly about using a virtual reality setting to study people in a new way and to look at all the facets (which it has done refreshingly well at times).
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Pedram



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 5:50 pm Reply with quote
Zerreth wrote:


1. incur a horrible DOS to backfire.

2. Also, aren't the PMCs on borrowed time? Scaling back the ratio would reduce the amount of total time they had to actually retrieve Alice.

3. There's a talking point about how it would be an issue to bring up the situation to japanese authorities, but somehow publicly opening this secret environment isn't an issue to the American contractors?

4. All anyone has to do on the Human Empire side is fire an AoE attack at the players logging in, forcing everyone else to try to rage quit this "imbalanced, trash game" only to realize they can't and now you easily have a manufactured international scandal. Considering the speed at which SAO was considered a major issue, this does not seem like a viable course of action.

5. Furthermore, why would so many dark knights be a threat in the first place? Wasn't the main issue for the Human Empire side that there's not enough time to build quality characters because the time differential is now 1:1? It wouldn't matter if the Dark Empire players are more experienced or skilled (they're not, that's not how human capital and statistics works) if they can get one shot like all the other faceless soldiers because of their low character level. How does this leveling issue not magically affect the Dark empire side?


1.
This is a world with almost no lag, a big ass castle with 100 floor that got no loading screen between it's 100 floor... and huge advanced AI and Game World Developing SDK being able to download and store in kirito's nervgear storage in a few second.

Yui is able to operate out of a random mobile like Asuna's phone.

And you have a hard time imagining a server not having DOS problem ? Neutral

2. You are making the same mistake as Higa and Kikuoka did, they mention since they have only 24 hours, they would use the extra speed and wont reduce it, since there is no reason to do so.

But Fact is... 24 hours on normal acceleration speed is like 3 years in UnderWorld.

let alone they can increase the speed even more. as we were told the speed was up to 5000x at one point. that mean even if they have 5minute left before they have to leave, as long as they increase the speed up to 5000x, they will have 17~18 days of time in UnderWorld !

So They can waste as much time as they want as long as they have a reason for it. if going on normal 1:1 speed will help them finish the war easier, then they will do it, they will still have many days to years of time as long as they increase the speed later on.

3.
Idk how much anime showcased this, but it's pretty clear these guys are all criminals with criminal records and got no connection to america's government.

no matter what they do, it will not be traced back to america, even if people believe it, they have no evidence, so america don't care what they do, as long as they either steal the technology or destroy it all.

these mercenaries don't even know who they are working for or what they came there for, Gabriel only told them some info after they were already inside Ocean Turtle.

4 and 5. I combine your 4th and 5th point and say it together,

You are extremely overestimation the Human Empire's power.

That Large AoE Alice used was only possible due to a huge number of death and her absorbing all of those powers to unleash a big Nuke.
First of all, they are already much less than before and enemy is bigger, 2ndly, they don't have a narrow path anymore and enemy can surround them, lastly... Enemy already know Alice's trick from last time so they can now try and prevent her.

About other Integrity Knights,
You seems to forget they are not invincible and can get tired, Their weapons specially.
Remember how Kirito and Eugeo were counting the times they can use Enhance Armament ?

Each time they use their sword's special ability, their sword's life value decrease and it won't fix until several days of rest.

So they can use their ability a few time at max. they already used them a lot half a day before, so they can't keep on spamming them.

Anyway, no matter how strong you are, if the enemy outnumber you so hugely, you gonna end up losing it. and that's what Gabriel is doing. he don't care about anyone friend or foe, he just want to reduce their number and then capture alice.
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Pedram



Joined: 31 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:29 pm Reply with quote
Hiroki not Takuya wrote:
I played Skyrim for awhile and know someone who got an account deleted but recovered so I see how that worked but realize there are a bunch of online games different from it. Event-specific items aside, my view was that the memories and experiences don't just go away so having to redo an avatar and re-joining guilds and such shouldn't be that big a deal. While underworld isn't a full game, the players being asked to join come from games where they could recover avatars, etc.

As for Lizbeth, not being a complete SAO-phile playing all the games, side stories, novels, manga, etc. I only have the anime to go on and from what I saw of her, she is a reserved person who doesn't often speak or act boldly. I can't assume character development unfortunately but that would be the anime's fault, "everyone" loves Kirito x Asuna and since the writers know that, that is what the story is concentrating on.

As for Reki's gamership, I take my info from others who were gaming in the time you mention so I don't think it's out of context or completely unfair but of course they are differing opinions. I actually have tried to shy away from much criticism as the point of SAO as a story was clearly about using a virtual reality setting to study people in a new way and to look at all the facets (which it has done refreshingly well at times).


For Reki's gaming, Not talking about you, but about those who "release these info and informs others" I simply wish those people would either actually read the light novels before condemning "Reki Kawahara" or simply say "the games and mechanism they see in SAO anime is bad" instead of saying "Reki have never played any game and have no good knowledge of games"

That Aside, I saw most of the "criticism" and a huge number of them were wrong, even without any LN knowledge and judging by the anime alone, but anyway, I don't wanna go into this topic here and I doubt you do either, in case you want to talk more about it, PM me here or in reddit.

As for Liz, I was just saying my opinion, not saying you should have my opinion as well, I was myself wondering that if my opinion was affected by my knowledge of LNs or not and if it is, then yes, It's Anime's fault. (Also I only read the LNs by Reki, no Manga or games)

And about recovering your account.

Well, This does not work the way your saved file for Skyrim, a single player game works.

This is similar to Transferring your WoW account from 1 server to another, then go back to your old server and expecting your account to exist in there as well !

Well shocker, it does not ! lol

The way they Convert their characters from ALO or any other game into UnderWorld, completely move out their whole character into UnderWorld.

So the only way to retrieve it or retrieve any item you might have lost in the new game ( UnderWorld ) is all through UnderWorld itself.

you can't expect ALO to give you back anything.

Because if they let you convert to another game, but then go back to your old game and say you lost your account, please recover it for me.

then people keep on doing this and duplicate a huge number of account and items...

Imagine having super nice items worth 10000$ in black market.
Proceed to Convert to another Game,
Go back to old game and lie to them you lost your account in the new game.
Get back ur old account. now you got 2 account with 10000$ worth of items.

Let alone the items, even a naked high level base account can be worth a lot of money.

this isn't Reki not having knowledge about games, this is Reki having a good grasp on how the online gaming works, duplicating items or accounts is an age old story that players are always trying to profit from.
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