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EP. REVIEW: Sword Art Online: Alicization - War of Underworld


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Zerreth



Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 160
Location: E6
PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2019 7:06 pm Reply with quote
Pedram wrote:


1.
This is a world with almost no lag, a big ass castle with 100 floor that got no loading screen between it's 100 floor... and huge advanced AI and Game World Developing SDK being able to download and store in kirito's nervgear storage in a few second.

Yui is able to operate out of a random mobile like Asuna's phone.

And you have a hard time imagining a server not having DOS problem ? Neutral

2. You are making the same mistake as Higa and Kikuoka did, they mention since they have only 24 hours, they would use the extra speed and wont reduce it, since there is no reason to do so.

But Fact is... 24 hours on normal acceleration speed is like 3 years in UnderWorld.

let alone they can increase the speed even more. as we were told the speed was up to 5000x at one point. that mean even if they have 5minute left before they have to leave, as long as they increase the speed up to 5000x, they will have 17~18 days of time in UnderWorld !

So They can waste as much time as they want as long as they have a reason for it. if going on normal 1:1 speed will help them finish the war easier, then they will do it, they will still have many days to years of time as long as they increase the speed later on.

3.
Idk how much anime showcased this, but it's pretty clear these guys are all criminals with criminal records and got no connection to america's government.

no matter what they do, it will not be traced back to america, even if people believe it, they have no evidence, so america don't care what they do, as long as they either steal the technology or destroy it all.

4 and 5. I combine your 4th and 5th point and say it together,

You are extremely overestimation the Human Empire's power.

That Large AoE Alice used was only possible due to a huge number of death and her absorbing all of those powers to unleash a big Nuke.
First of all, they are already much less than before and enemy is bigger, 2ndly, they don't have a narrow path anymore and enemy can surround them, lastly... Enemy already know Alice's trick from last time so they can now try and prevent her.

About other Integrity Knights,
You seems to forget they are not invincible and can get tired, Their weapons specially.
Remember how Kirito and Eugeo were counting the times they can use Enhance Armament ?

Each time they use their sword's special ability, their sword's life value decrease and it won't fix until several days of rest.

So they can use their ability a few time at max. they already used them a lot half a day before, so they can't keep on spamming them.

Anyway, no matter how strong you are, if the enemy outnumber you so hugely, you gonna end up losing it. and that's what Gabriel is doing. he don't care about anyone friend or foe, he just want to reduce their number and then capture alice.


1. Maintaining storage and running a client is VASTLY different from load balancing and running thousands to millions of parallel computations in real time. In terms of even basic game optimization, clients will not load all 100 floors of aincrad when the client itself is only capable of seeing and reporting a fraction a floor. I very much doubt nervgears were responsible for running their client and everyone else's client at the same time. Not only is that redundant but makes no sense (besides, they were phoning home to the main server which determined whether or not to kill the players in the first place which indicates the nervgears were NOT hosting a server instance of SAO). As far as I understand it, the point of running the Underworld on the ocean turtle is to maintain an isolated system which is specifically why they had all those data cubes. This also means the hardware to run it would support the total limit of those cubes with a bit of overhead because that is how you spec hardware based on software. You don't build AlphaGo hardware to run a minecraft server. The population increase this episode is suggesting is not a bit of overhead in the slightest.

2. How does this crackshot 'beta test' thing work? If they're pretending they're going to act as a VRMMO server, that means you have to keep acceleration 1:1. The implication is that to fully support fluctlight transfer and response, you need those specialized machines that Rath has, otherwise you have a load of players just playing a game with a speedhack on (game speed moves at x times speed while reaction time stays the same). Unless somehow they're transferring the conscious (which they no longer can because of SAO), then I come back to my first point. Excuse me? This guy can code a better accel world in a matter of hours, in an engine he did not develop, in a language he can't read despite it being the language of his home nation with more primitive technology?

3. This counterpoint makes no sense. All crimes are tied to a country/nation/state/local area. They're crimes because they're recorded under a specific database/jurisdiction and it's the nation's responsibility for their criminals. Just because they can't be tied to the government doesn't mean their actions aren't tied to an American source.

You should not be tying "4 and 5" mainly because you're missing the point of "4" which is an expansion of the previous point.


And your response for 5 still doesn't explain anything. Adding people doesn't change anything, they still have a giant chasm to cross, and if they're spawning across the chasm. Why? Why not in the human camp? or the Human empire? Or literally anywhere that's not the spot this hackerguy has chosen? Also, time differential is now 1:1, the battle is going to take forever in real time.

They've prepared a setting that it's a pvp server. How can you guarantee that Alice won't be killed? Why would the players care about what Gabriel says? Simply increasing the scale of a conflict does not build drama unless the logistics behind it are accounted for, ESPECIALLY when the previous setting is established to be a closed system. This is a terrible terrible floodgate to open. At this point, what's stopping other countries from hijacking this "beta"? The internet does not simply work like fantasy nations do.
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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 16032
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2019 9:03 pm Reply with quote
Zerreth wrote:
4. All anyone has to do on the Human Empire side is fire an AoE attack at the players logging in, forcing everyone else to try to rage quit this "imbalanced, trash game" only to realize they can't and now you easily have a manufactured international scandal. Considering the speed at which SAO was considered a major issue, this does not seem like a viable course of action.

Actually, you seem to be missing the whole point here.

GABRIEL DOESN'T CARE.

He doesn't give a damn about creating international incidents or whatever, as any consequences won't be on him. He doesn't even give a damn if those who come in follow orders or even attack his own troops. They're just being "invited" in to tie everyone else up so he can get to Alice in the confusion.

Quote:
And your response for 5 still doesn't explain anything. Adding people doesn't change anything, they still have a giant chasm to cross, and if they're spawning across the chasm. Why? Why not in the human camp? or the Human empire? Or literally anywhere that's not the spot this hackerguy has chosen? Also, time differential is now 1:1, the battle is going to take forever in real time.

But since they're logging in through Amuspheres (or the equivalent) instead of STLs then they couldn't handle the time dilation. That's why it's at 1:1: a faster time frame effectively prevents timely outside interference. Also, they're being dropped in the general area of where Vecta is, which is where Alice is presumed to be. Hence their placement isn't random at all.

Quote:
They've prepared a setting that it's a pvp server. How can you guarantee that Alice won't be killed? Why would the players care about what Gabriel says? Simply increasing the scale of a conflict does not build drama unless the logistics behind it are accounted for, ESPECIALLY when the previous setting is established to be a closed system. This is a terrible terrible floodgate to open. At this point, what's stopping other countries from hijacking this "beta"? The internet does not simply work like fantasy nations do.

Oh, this isn't a safe play on Gabriel's part at all. When he and Critter arranged this, they seemed to be operating under a "grab him/her/it when the person reveals themselves in the midst of the chaos" kind of attitude. Yeah, probably not the best of plans, but again, they don't care about the consequences.

As for the hijacking the "beta" thing, it's not unrealistic that no one else is aware of what is going on with Underworld; the Americans who hired Gabriel only know because of the mole. Also, anyone outside coming in is completely regulated by those on the Ocean Turtle. By the time a hacker realized what all is going on here, it's going to be all over.

Now, I'm not at all going to sit here and argue that the story isn't stretching on its technical points; if you think that's bad now, there's a worse example coming up. However, at least some of this isn't as much of a problem as you're making it out to be.
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FilthyCasual



Joined: 01 Jun 2015
Posts: 1361
PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:32 pm Reply with quote
I'm gonna comment on SAO for the first time in a while.

AMERICAN GAMER UPRISING

God bless Kawahara.
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Kisuke525



Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 86
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:46 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:


Now, I'm not at all going to sit here and argue that the story isn't stretching on its technical points; if you think that's bad now, there's a worse example coming up. However, at least some of this isn't as much of a problem as you're making it out to be.


What's the technical problem that's coming up?
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writerpatrick



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 603
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:15 pm Reply with quote
FilthyCasual wrote:

AMERICAN GAMER UPRISING


Engrish speaking Americans. It would have been less noticeable had they just spoke Japanese.
It's also a little disturbing how being able to hack an enemy to pieces was considered a good thing.
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Kisuke525



Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 86
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:30 pm Reply with quote
writerpatrick wrote:
FilthyCasual wrote:

AMERICAN GAMER UPRISING


Engrish speaking Americans. It would have been less noticeable had they just spoke Japanese.
It's also a little disturbing how being able to hack an enemy to pieces was considered a good thing.


The reason the American players are excited about the violence is because VR games in America aren't allowed to depict extreme human violence. If I remember correctly I think it's for ethical reasons. This wasn't mentioned in the anime btw.
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Hiroki not Takuya



Joined: 17 Apr 2012
Posts: 1416
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:31 pm Reply with quote
Pedram wrote:
...For Reki's gaming, Not talking about you ...
And about recovering your account. Well, This does not work the way your saved file for Skyrim, a single player game works....
Like I mentioned to another good person here recently, I really appreciate your attitude and for not resorting to insults, attacks, snide retorts, etc like so many here have done. I will consider what info you have given me on this as will readily admit I am not a "gamer" to the extent you and others are. For what it's worth, I think Alice has been getting better and Ep12 was not bad at all.
writerpatrick wrote:
Engrish speaking Americans....It's also a little disturbing how being able to hack an enemy to pieces was considered a good thing.
Well, for obviously non-native speakers I think they did passably well, but I still got a kick out of hearing "Hell to the Yes" as a valid expression. That American Gamers were portrayed as eager to hack and slash if it was realistic enough seemed to me to be some pointed commentary but I wouldn't complain just as long as they weren't implying that Japanese Gamers would never do that...

Now, for the IT technical problems associated with the mass logins and game I/O traffic, I got a kick Ep12 that "Critter" mentioned they were being done by satellite link because satellites use RF comms which max out at 1-2 Gbps and the traffic 50,000 players would need for graphics updates even with compressed HD would be way above 5Gbps. That it had to be written that way to get I/O to the OT (silly name!) was a given, but If the OT didn't have uplink RF hardware with infrastructure designed for streaming Gbps to anywhere other than the control rooms (why would it?), there would be a massive bottleneck at the least.
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Kisuke525



Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 86
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:01 am Reply with quote
Hiroki not Takuya wrote:
Pedram wrote:
...For Reki's gaming, Not talking about you ...
And about recovering your account. Well, This does not work the way your saved file for Skyrim, a single player game works....
Like I mentioned to another good person here recently, I really appreciate your attitude and for not resorting to insults, attacks, snide retorts, etc like so many here have done. I will consider what info you have given me on this as will readily admit I am not a "gamer" to the extent you and others are. For what it's worth, I think Alice has been getting better and Ep12 was not bad at all.
writerpatrick wrote:
Engrish speaking Americans....It's also a little disturbing how being able to hack an enemy to pieces was considered a good thing.


Now, for the IT technical problems associated with the mass logins and game I/O traffic, I got a kick Ep12 that "Critter" mentioned they were being done by satellite link because satellites use RF comms which max out at 1-2 Gbps and the traffic 50,000 players would need for graphics updates even with compressed HD would be way above 5Gbps. That it had to be written that way to get I/O to the OT (silly name!) was a given, but If the OT didn't have uplink RF hardware with infrastructure designed for streaming Gbps to anywhere other than the control rooms (why would it?), there would be a massive bottleneck at the least.


I may be misunderstanding what you mean, but the Ocean Turtle is set up for streaming to places other than the control rooms. The reason for that is because the Roppongi Branch back on land needs to be able to stream the Underworld. That's how Kirito was able to enter the Underworld before being brought to the Ocean Turtle.
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Hiroki not Takuya



Joined: 17 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:00 am Reply with quote
Fair point, but the problem is still the number of total connections. Now, if we assume the Americans are using their own special satellite and they brought their own RF and encode hardware with (lots of 19" racks...), there might be a chance if they could run a Tbps fiber-optic physical connection to the main server.

Some numbers: basing on what Gabriel said about graphics assuming Underworld is designed to generate 12-bit color 4kx4k 30Hz graphics per avatar, the raw output would be 5.7Gbps each but that could be MPX compressed to 570Mbps without noticeable resolution reduction. We could then assume internal to the server the lightcube cluster would be getting compressed video streams totaling about 12Tbps for 20,000 cubes. Each super-nervegear unit could be designed to get a greater MPX compression to 57Mbps which lowers resolution and monitors could operate at much lower resolution to maybe 720p at 1.4Mbps. If that were all the external load, the server hardware would only have to handle an additional 150Mbps over the satellite link from the 12Tbps (no problem).

The problem then is having 10,000's of MPX compressors external to the main server, assuming the server wasn't planned to have the additional MPX compressors, and the Underworld software being designed to accommodate all the fluctlichts and the additional 20-50k avatars. If the user graphics were "compressed to hell" 720p that would mean the satellite aggregate rate would have to be in the 1.4-7Gbps range which is beyond satellite feasibility. The only way to avoid this massive bottleneck is to have graphics clients resident on user computers running off the raw Underworld meta-data as Zerreth mentioned, which seems more unlikely.
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Kisuke525



Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 86
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:14 am Reply with quote
Hiroki not Takuya wrote:
Fair point, but the problem is still the number of total connections. Now, if we assume the Americans are using their own special satellite and they brought their own RF and encode hardware with (lots of 19" racks...), there might be a chance if they could run a Tbps fiber-optic physical connection to the main server.

Some numbers: basing on what Gabriel said about graphics assuming Underworld is designed to generate 12-bit color 4kx4k 30Hz graphics per avatar, the raw output would be 5.7Gbps each but that could be MPX compressed to 570Mbps without noticeable resolution reduction. We could then assume internal to the server the lightcube cluster would be getting compressed video streams totaling about 12Tbps for 20,000 cubes. Each super-nervegear unit could be designed to get a greater MPX compression to 57Mbps which lowers resolution and monitors could operate at much lower resolution to maybe 720p at 1.4Mbps. If that were all the external load, the server hardware would only have to handle an additional 150Mbps over the satellite link from the 12Tbps (no problem).

The problem then is having 10,000's of MPX compressors external to the main server, assuming the server wasn't planned to have the additional MPX compressors, and the Underworld software being designed to accommodate all the fluctlichts and the additional 20-50k avatars. If the user graphics were "compressed to hell" 720p that would mean the satellite aggregate rate would have to be in the 1.4-7Gbps range which is beyond satellite feasibility. The only way to avoid this massive bottleneck is to have graphics clients resident on user computers running off the raw Underworld meta-data as Zerreth mentioned, which seems more unlikely.


I could be wrong here since im really not an expert on any of this, but I think the problem here is that you're assuming SAO is at pretty much the same level as us technologically. I mean this is a world where full dive VR and crazy shit like the STL exists, so I would assume they have more advanced satellites and stuff like that as well. I don't think it's fair to say that it's not possible in their world just because it isn't in ours.
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AksaraKishou



Joined: 16 May 2015
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:22 pm Reply with quote
Kisuke525 wrote:
Hiroki not Takuya wrote:
Fair point, but the problem is still the number of total connections. Now, if we assume the Americans are using their own special satellite and they brought their own RF and encode hardware with (lots of 19" racks...), there might be a chance if they could run a Tbps fiber-optic physical connection to the main server.

Some numbers: basing on what Gabriel said about graphics assuming Underworld is designed to generate 12-bit color 4kx4k 30Hz graphics per avatar, the raw output would be 5.7Gbps each but that could be MPX compressed to 570Mbps without noticeable resolution reduction. We could then assume internal to the server the lightcube cluster would be getting compressed video streams totaling about 12Tbps for 20,000 cubes. Each super-nervegear unit could be designed to get a greater MPX compression to 57Mbps which lowers resolution and monitors could operate at much lower resolution to maybe 720p at 1.4Mbps. If that were all the external load, the server hardware would only have to handle an additional 150Mbps over the satellite link from the 12Tbps (no problem).

The problem then is having 10,000's of MPX compressors external to the main server, assuming the server wasn't planned to have the additional MPX compressors, and the Underworld software being designed to accommodate all the fluctlichts and the additional 20-50k avatars. If the user graphics were "compressed to hell" 720p that would mean the satellite aggregate rate would have to be in the 1.4-7Gbps range which is beyond satellite feasibility. The only way to avoid this massive bottleneck is to have graphics clients resident on user computers running off the raw Underworld meta-data as Zerreth mentioned, which seems more unlikely.


I could be wrong here since im really not an expert on any of this, but I think the problem here is that you're assuming SAO is at pretty much the same level as us technologically. I mean this is a world where full dive VR and crazy shit like the STL exists, so I would assume they have more advanced satellites and stuff like that as well. I don't think it's fair to say that it's not possible in their world just because it isn't in ours.


Guess we'll have to chalk it up to one of those "sorta plausible things, but as of now, we just have to suspend our disbelief for a bit"
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LuScr



Joined: 26 Apr 2007
Posts: 103
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:07 pm Reply with quote
Is it confirmed that 12 is the last episode of this season? The end had what looked like the usual next-ep title preview, so I'd thought there would be one more.
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FilthyCasual



Joined: 01 Jun 2015
Posts: 1361
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:08 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Because he yanked his eye out rather than getting it to explode, he's still bound by Vecta's orders
Ahh, I was wondering about that. I figured that as another unique AI he'd die to keep Alice special, but if he's only halfway there then he might live.
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Yuvelir



Joined: 06 Jan 2015
Posts: 485
PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:55 am Reply with quote
Quote:
Use of sound effects also continues to impress; I am hard-pressed to think of another action series in the last year or two which has done as well or better.

Any that doesn't make it sound like the characters are wielding huge steel pipes against each other.
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Kisuke525



Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 86
PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:03 pm Reply with quote
[quote="AksaraKishou"]
Kisuke525 wrote:
Hiroki not Takuya wrote:
Fair point, but the problem is still the number of total connections. Now, if we assume the Americans are using their own special satellite and they brought their own RF and encode hardware with (lots of 19" racks...), there might be a chance if they could run a Tbps fiber-optic physical connection to the main server.

Some numbers: basing on what Gabriel said about graphics assuming Underworld is designed to generate 12-bit color 4kx4k 30Hz graphics per avatar, the raw output would be 5.7Gbps each but that could be MPX compressed to 570Mbps without noticeable resolution reduction. We could then assume internal to the server the lightcube cluster would be getting compressed video streams totaling about 12Tbps for 20,000 cubes. Each super-nervegear unit could be designed to get a greater MPX compression to 57Mbps which lowers resolution and monitors could operate at much lower resolution to maybe 720p at 1.4Mbps. If that were all the external load, the server hardware would only have to handle an additional 150Mbps over the satellite link from the 12Tbps (no problem).

The problem then is having 10,000's of MPX compressors external to the main server, assuming the server wasn't planned to have the additional MPX compressors, and the Underworld software being designed to accommodate all the fluctlichts and the additional 20-50k avatars. If the user graphics were "compressed to hell" 720p that would mean the satellite aggregate rate would have to be in the 1.4-7Gbps range which is beyond satellite feasibility. The only way to avoid this massive bottleneck is to have graphics clients resident on user computers running off the raw Underworld meta-data as Zerreth mentioned, which seems more unlikely.


Guess we'll have to chalk it up to one of those "sorta plausible things, but as of now, we just have to suspend our disbelief for a bit"


I still don't really understand why it's so unbelievable. Modern day MMO's are able to have thousands of players on their servers, so why can't it be done here?
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