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INTEREST: Gundam Creator Tomino Criticizes Shinkai Works For Lack of Sexual Intimacy


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Somer-_-



Joined: 14 May 2014
Posts: 984
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:07 am Reply with quote
nemuyoake wrote:
They can't have "sexual intimacy" on screen because most of HS forbid their students to have sex. I'm a tenured teacher at one of those schools. They can be in love, have a steady relationship, but they can't have sex, or even kiss each other in public. It's thought not approriate for students who should focus on their studies only. Think what you want about it, but it's how it is. Hence, anime that depict HS students crush/love cannot depict these kind of scenes without being deemed inappropriate.


Hmm. I wonder why Japan's birth rate is on a sharp decline. Couldn't be because of stuff like this right?

Fluwm wrote:
Somer-_- wrote:
snip


This is true, but... this has been the status quo for decades. And it's a status quo Tomino built his career on.


I agree but I don't think it lessens the value of his comment.

Jose Cruz wrote:

It is my impression from watching half a dozen Gundam titles. There is so much better stuff out there...


He didn't only do Gundam. He was involved in a lot of anime in the 60s and 70s before 0079. Calling him mediocre and "Outside the industry" is what's actually insulting. Come on dude was involved in Astro Boy of all things.
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Kilgamayan



Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 275
Location: Location, Location.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:07 am Reply with quote
I am curious if he actually used "boy" and "girl" or if that was a translation choice, since the implications of those words carry a lot of weight in such a discussion.

I mean, there's always Lost Butterfly if one needs to watch a movie where high schoolers have sex. It even came out within the past year. But I must admit I'm okay with movies/shows where high schoolers have sex being the exception rather than the norm.
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Commander Cluck



Joined: 02 May 2019
Posts: 123
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:35 pm Reply with quote
Somer-_- wrote:
Hmm. I wonder why Japan's birth rate is on a sharp decline. Couldn't be because of stuff like this right?


Teen pregnancy probably isn't the solution to that. Nor should it be.
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FilthyCasual



Joined: 01 Jun 2015
Posts: 2165
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:54 pm Reply with quote
So he watched Darling in the Franxx and Lost Butterfly, got it.
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Kuroi Ren



Joined: 09 Dec 2018
Posts: 143
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:50 pm Reply with quote
BRUH!

That's a good thing. I like sweet romances. Tired of the ecchi and non-ecchi sexual romances
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AkumaChef



Joined: 10 Jan 2019
Posts: 821
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:55 pm Reply with quote
Commander Cluck wrote:
Somer-_- wrote:
Hmm. I wonder why Japan's birth rate is on a sharp decline. Couldn't be because of stuff like this right?


Teen pregnancy probably isn't the solution to that. Nor should it be.


The problem with low birth rates is not limited to Japan. It tends to correlate rather strongly to relatively wealthy countries. There are many theories for this: some claim that birth rates drop when people can easily afford birth control. Others claim that when other activities compete for people's attention they spend less time making babies. I don't pretend to know what the real explanation is, but it does correlate quite well with wealth.

I do agree 100% that teen pregnancy isn't the solution. And I certainly don't think that anime's take on sex is responsible for low birth rates. But I do see it as sort of a symptom of the problem. It shows people's attitudes on sexual matters, and I think that in the future these problems will only get worse unless that attitude changes. Looking at what sort of content we see in anime:

Ecchi humor involving nudity or underwear is everywhere. So is all manner of innuendo, slapstick comedy in which characters trip and fall on each other in compromising positions, the ubiquitous mixed-bath onsen episodes, etc.
Then we have hentai, quite a lot of which might be described as extreme or bizarre.
But we have very few titles in which sex (whether we see it or not) is treated in a mature and responsible manner as part of a normal relationship. I don't know this to be a fact or not, but I suspect if that if anime works like that then so do Japanese attitudes in general.

As modern society progresses there are many people who are becoming more and more socially isolated and having difficulty interacting with others, especially the opposite sex. (NEETs, "incel", etc) The more sexual matters are considered taboo (or are pigeonholed into either jokes and fantasies) the worse such problems will become.
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Utsuro no Hako



Joined: 18 May 2012
Posts: 1032
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:04 pm Reply with quote
Megiddo wrote:


Yes, you can have "young love that doesn't work out" that includes sex. But not with Shinkai's stories because there's never any physical relationship there to begin with.


That's because Shinkai is repeating the same basic story over and over. As great as Your Name is, it doesn't say anything that Shinkai didn't already say in Voice or 5cm. That's part of Tomino's criticism -- this theme is fine once, but it's time for Shinkai to evolve.

And look at Ore Monogatari. That has the same wistful tone, and lots of scenes with characters looking longingly at each other and reaching out to hold hands, and it also finds time to acknowledge that Rinko is horny for Takao, and she's embarrassed to admit it.

Or After the Rain. That fits perfectly with Shinkai's themes, and yet it's a sexually mature story in a way that Shinkai seems allergic to.
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Utsuro no Hako



Joined: 18 May 2012
Posts: 1032
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:26 pm Reply with quote
Marzan wrote:
I think he might have a point but it could have been framed a lot better. Or maybe it is the translation that comes out wrong. But in any case, this is not a failing solely of Makoto Shinkai. In general anime/manga are quite limited at exploring stories/characters that have crossed the sexual threshold. Romance stories generally end when the MC’s hook up.


There are tons of manga that address sexuality, even in the shounen and shoujo space. Horimiya. Genshiken. Good Ending. Domestic Girlfriend. A Town Where You Live. O Maidens. Life. Mars. Beck. Not to mention everything Shuzo Oshimi and Inio Asano have ever written. If you go to Bookwalker and browse around for stuff that's never been licensed in the West, you'll find even more explicit examples.
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nemuyoake





PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:54 pm Reply with quote
Shinkai and Tomino are not from the same generation. Authors write scenarios mostly inspired by the society they have been in their prime, their beliefs, values etc.
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TexZero



Joined: 25 Oct 2017
Posts: 582
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:22 pm Reply with quote
gpanthony wrote:
penguintruth wrote:
Zeino wrote:

Ah oddball who use to kill off his female love interests for the sake of DRAMA aka fridging, you mean.


Please. Tomino kills off everyone. That's why he's Kill 'Em All Tomino.

spoiler[Anyway, Fa survived. So did Roux. And Fraw Bow. Sayla Mass. Shahkti. Kihel and Dianna, as well.]


Poor Fraw. spoiler[To me, the character with the worst life in all of Gundam. Starts off with guy she's into pretty much just ignoring her while she tries to care for him, then her family's killed in war, then she's forced to take part in the war as ship crew, Amuro's still not in to her, hooks up with Hayato for kind of "meh" reasons, her son dies, her husband dies, Amuro dies. And she's pretty much left forgotten by all the series' writers.]


I assume by in all of Gundam you mean 0079.
Because they one up'd Fraw's bad life in IBO (Lafter Frankland) and in Seed (Flay Allster).
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Somer-_-



Joined: 14 May 2014
Posts: 984
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:50 pm Reply with quote
Commander Cluck wrote:
Somer-_- wrote:
Hmm. I wonder why Japan's birth rate is on a sharp decline. Couldn't be because of stuff like this right?


Teen pregnancy probably isn't the solution to that. Nor should it be.


Who said anything about teen pregnancy?
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Chiibi



Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Posts: 4828
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:22 am Reply with quote
Good grief, shut up, Tomino, you damn pervert....

A good romance movie does NOT need on-screen sex. Rolling Eyes
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kae kurono



Joined: 24 Mar 2011
Posts: 102
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:46 am Reply with quote
Quote:
"Yeahhhhh Kurono having sex with Sei & Tae (after only a few hours/days of knowing one another) didn't in anyway develop his character or their's neither of whom were the "main heroines" which Gantz never really had. Nor did it wash off the shittiness of Kurono kicking Kei out of his apartment cause she wouldn't have sex with him and liked Kato."


Did you read gantz or not? kurono did develop through out his relationship with tae, doesn't matter if she's the heroine or not kurono went from a typical cynical male into someone who cares deeply about the girl he loves & the people around him as the series went on. He was a flawed shitty person at the start that's what makes his change in the story so damn interesting, he wasn't your typical protag instead he's representative of so many young men are like in modern society today instead your typical anime type of main character.

Quote:
"There are tons of manga that address sexuality, even in the shounen and shoujo space. Horimiya. Genshiken. Good Ending. Domestic Girlfriend. A Town Where You Live. O Maidens. Life. Mars. Beck. Not to mention everything Shuzo Oshimi and Inio Asano have ever written. If you go to Bookwalker and browse around for stuff that's never been licensed in the West, you'll find even more explicit examples."


Those are all good examples as well too, tho i didn't read "shoujo space. Horimiya. Genshiken." but Shuzo Oshimi and Inio Asano quite often do sexual romance in their works. most of the examples don't have any anime all that, no matter how amazing they are which is just sad. and that's the issue most of the best romance within anime & manga as a shared medium is mainly 90% manga only, anime is extremely lacking in s-tier level romance in general.

Beatdigga wrote:
What I think Tomino is trying to say - “Too many stories with romances just hover around step 1, the introduction. There’s nothing after that, the highs and lows of a relationship. There’s just the “meet cute” stretched out over an agonizingly long period and it’s unrealistic and boring.

What everyone heard - “MOAR SEX.”


100% agree Your comments says it all.

[Edit]: cleaned up your multi-posts. Errinundra.
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 4566
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:50 am Reply with quote
Despite Tomino's...questionable wording, there's definitely a legitimate point in there. I agree that he wasn't really talking about showing explicit sex scenes on-screen so much as even acknowledging the physical component of a relationship. As much as anime is capable of ridiculous, often laughable levels of perversion, by and large it's remarkably chaste when depicting physical intimacy. Even series that label themselves "ecchi" rarely have any sort of active two-way participation in the acts portrayed, as horrifically-hoary tropes like a guy landing on a girl and accidentally grabbing her boobs can attest. As others have noted, it's like most anime series never even try to move beyond step 1 of a relationship...it's all furtive glances and blushing confessions and reluctant hand-holding. Where's what comes next? Where's the actual intimacy, the established relationship, the mature connection? Precious few series make it to that stage. As was mentioned before, it's most likely a symptom of Japan's population decline and seemingly widespread lack of interest in pursuing relationships, but knowing that doesn't make it any more frustrating as a viewer.

(Part of it is also definitely anime's infatuation with high school settings, but that's a whole other rant. As someone who works with teenagers on a daily basis, the thought of their relationships being held up as an idealized aspiration just makes me chuckle.)

As far as series that actually portray physical intimacy, Trigun and Eva were already mentioned, but another one that comes to mind for me is Parasyte. spoiler[Shinichi and Murano had something of a sporadic relationship throughout the series, but right before he's about to face what could very well be his death, he turns to her for comfort, and the two have sex.] It's portrayed very tastefully and matter-of-factly, and it feels very natural as a result. And while it doesn't involve physicality per se, another fine example is Renton and Eureka's relationship in Eureka 7: what starts as a (one-sided) teenage infatuation develops into a mature and fully-realized two-way relationship. It's still my pick for the best-realized romance out of all the anime I've seen.

And as for Shinkai, I've seen the majority of his films (not Your Name yet, unfortunately), and while he's an unparalleled master at creating absolute visual feasts, his stories tend to leave me feeling...well, cold. The underlying "wistful doomed love across vast obstacles" theme that pervades most of his work doesn't do much for me personally, and it feels like he keeps riffing on that same theme without doing too much to evolve it. Pretty much the only work of his that doesn't involve it is Children who Chase Lost Voices, and that's only because it's essentially Shinkai Tries To Be Miyazaki.
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nemuyoake





PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:13 am Reply with quote
Parasyte was published between 1988 and 1994. It was different at that time. Stupid rules about HS students' appearance, behavior etc. were especially inforced after this period. They are made to control young people, to prevent them from becoming "furyou" and disrupt the peaceful Japanese modern society. It's all about control. There were a lot of delinquents, out of control, who threatened the order back in the late 70' and up to the 90'. Now, students' actions are extremely controled to prevent this (that's how adults think anyway).

Manga/anime that depict a more "fantasy world" can allow themselves to diverge from the standard. Shinkai's work is more "all publics/family" and set in the "real world" (in spite of the SF/supernatural trope, yes), that's why.
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