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NEWS: Kodansha Wins 160-Million-Yen Lawsuit Against 3 Pirate Site Admins


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Actar



Joined: 21 Nov 2010
Posts: 1074
Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:59 am Reply with quote
Urgh... I hate the lost sale argument so much. It's completely hypothetical and artificially inflated. It fails to take into account people who wouldn't have bothered to bought it in the first place and people who have bought it after pirating it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZadCj8O1-0
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nemuyoake



Joined: 26 Nov 2014
Posts: 54
Location: Iwate, Japan
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:17 am Reply with quote
GOOD. Twisted Evil
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Puniyo



Joined: 08 Oct 2015
Posts: 245
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:50 am Reply with quote
Actar wrote:
Urgh... I hate the lost sale argument so much. It's completely hypothetical and artificially inflated. It fails to take into account people who wouldn't have bothered to bought it in the first place and people who have bought it after pirating it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZadCj8O1-0


That's a 20 year old argument that just isn't relevant in the age of streaming.
Especially since these aren't fansubs, they're raws that were downloaded by japanese users, who have the easiest access to legal content.
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AkumaChef



Joined: 10 Jan 2019
Posts: 821
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:36 am Reply with quote
Actar wrote:
Urgh... I hate the lost sale argument so much. It's completely hypothetical and artificially inflated. It fails to take into account people who wouldn't have bothered to bought it in the first place and people who have bought it after pirating it.


Agreed, the numbers are always inflated to an absurd degree.
That said, I really wish there was a good way to measure this kind of thing so it can be accurately studied. We all know that the "lost sale" numbers are usually complete nonsense, but at the same time it's equally nonsensical to claim that piracy results in zero financial harm either.
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encrypted12345



Joined: 25 Jan 2012
Posts: 603
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:57 am Reply with quote
Yaarg, shoot down three pirate ships, five more will rise up to take their place!
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DavetheUsher



Joined: 19 May 2014
Posts: 505
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:04 pm Reply with quote
Puniyo wrote:
That's a 20 year old argument that just isn't relevant in the age of streaming. Especially since these aren't fansubs, they're raws that were downloaded by japanese users, who have the easiest access to legal content.


IMO it'd seem like it'd be even more relevant in the streaming age where nobody really "buys" anything anymore except for the collectors who want a physical set for their collection. Most cases they just lose out on some mid-video ads. Worst cases they lose out on your 9.99 a month being distributed to every show on the service. Reminds me when things like TiVos and DVRs were on the rise and companies were saying skipping commercials was piracy. These days it'd be Adblocker, I guess.

But yeah this is Japan, not America. Nobody's ever been (successfully) sued in America for pirating anime yet.
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Swissman



Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 640
Location: Switzerland
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:07 pm Reply with quote
DavetheUsher wrote:
Puniyo wrote:
That's a 20 year old argument that just isn't relevant in the age of streaming. Especially since these aren't fansubs, they're raws that were downloaded by japanese users, who have the easiest access to legal content.


IMO it'd seem like it'd be even more relevant in the streaming age where nobody really "buys" anything anymore except for the collectors who want a physical set for their collection. Most cases they just lose out on some mid-video ads. Worst cases they lose out on your 9.99 a month being distributed to every show on the service.

Guys, "lost sales" doesn't necessarly mean lost sales from possible buyers of physical media exclusively. It can also stem from damage to the brand. The value of a brand drops when you, as a producer and rights owner, are not in full control anymore of how and where people consume your product, which leads to less income from distributors like streaming sites in case of anime.
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ChiilongCha



Joined: 26 Jul 2018
Posts: 16
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:56 pm Reply with quote
Swissman wrote:
DavetheUsher wrote:
Puniyo wrote:
That's a 20 year old argument that just isn't relevant in the age of streaming. Especially since these aren't fansubs, they're raws that were downloaded by japanese users, who have the easiest access to legal content.


IMO it'd seem like it'd be even more relevant in the streaming age where nobody really "buys" anything anymore except for the collectors who want a physical set for their collection. Most cases they just lose out on some mid-video ads. Worst cases they lose out on your 9.99 a month being distributed to every show on the service.

Guys, "lost sales" doesn't necessarly mean lost sales from possible buyers of physical media exclusively. It can also stem from damage to the brand. The value of a brand drops when you, as a producer and rights owner, are not in full control anymore of how and where people consume your product, which leads to less income from distributors like streaming sites in case of anime.


It applies to digital contents too, what do you mean? It's still a 'potential' loss.
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kpossibles



Joined: 01 Dec 2018
Posts: 115
Location: USA
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:57 pm Reply with quote
Good!! It's so easy nowaday to buy manga digitally in Japan for a fair price and also used at used bookstores. Hopefully this trend with winning lawsuits against pirate sites in Japan and can be used for cracking down on other pirate sites that share English stuff that is already free or blatantly post the English published version on their website (aka MangaStr**m and MangaR**k). MangaR**k did not shut down and still operates normally.
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AkumaChef



Joined: 10 Jan 2019
Posts: 821
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:15 pm Reply with quote
Swissman wrote:

Guys, "lost sales" doesn't necessarly mean lost sales from possible buyers of physical media exclusively. It can also stem from damage to the brand. The value of a brand drops when you, as a producer and rights owner, are not in full control anymore of how and where people consume your product, which leads to less income from distributors like streaming sites in case of anime.


I agree 100% that those are legitimate problems for a copyright holder, but they don't fall under the category of "lost sales". Lost sales are just what the words literally mean. Every time time I have seen "lost sales numbers" mentioned in a copyright lawsuit they only show physical media sales or online paid downloads. I've never seen damages to branding, lost streaming contracts, etc, used in anyone's accounting of "lost sales numbers"--those things are accounted for separately.
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ErikaD.D



Joined: 09 Jun 2019
Posts: 565
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:07 pm Reply with quote
kpossibles wrote:
Good!! It's so easy nowaday to buy manga digitally in Japan for a fair price and also used at used bookstores. Hopefully this trend with winning lawsuits against pirate sites in Japan and can be used for cracking down on other pirate sites that share English stuff that is already free or blatantly post the English published version on their website (aka MangaStr**m and MangaR**k). MangaR**k did not shut down and still operates normally.

But where I'd buying and reading manga legally because in my country, there's no buying mangas legally and it doesn't exist. I had no choice but reading manga illegaly on online. Sorry.
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DRosencraft



Joined: 27 Apr 2010
Posts: 465
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:18 pm Reply with quote
So, let me interject some real law here, since folks seem to get lost in the weeds on this. Lost sales is not a function of the law here. It doesn't even have to be proven for a conviction in a criminal case - which is what this is, seeing as how you have jail sentences being handed out. Very simply, distribution of the copyrighted work of another without consent or legal authority is copyright infringement and is a crime. Period.

The only reason they even bring up lost sales is because when it comes time for the civil penalties and any civil cases, it helps to show that you have a number on the books. In a criminal case, they would then have to prove any stated damages, so it's not as though they can completely make up numbers either. The lawyers will have to detail in their filing how they arrive at their damage estimates. They go as high as possible to both make sure that if they are ever able to collect that they can recover as much as possible, as well as a punitive measure so the culprit doesn't do it again, and that others are discouraged from similar acts.
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Twage



Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 337
Location: Astoria, NY
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:58 pm Reply with quote
DavetheUsher wrote:
But yeah this is Japan, not America. Nobody's ever been (successfully) sued in America for pirating anime yet.


You know that for a fact, huh?
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nemuyoake



Joined: 26 Nov 2014
Posts: 54
Location: Iwate, Japan
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:17 am Reply with quote
First post: Even if it is for one lost sale, a loss is a loss. Even if only 20% of illegal downloads are lost sales, money is money. Why don't you want authors/companies to get their money? They shouldn't get this money?
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AkumaChef



Joined: 10 Jan 2019
Posts: 821
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:08 am Reply with quote
DRosencraft wrote:
Very simply, distribution of the copyrighted work of another without consent or legal authority is copyright infringement and is a crime. Period.


I can't speak for everyone, but speaking for myself: yes, that is immediately obvious, and it goes without saying.
But that doesn't mean we can't discuss a sales number inflation as a separate topic.
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