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maximilianjenus



Joined: 29 Apr 2013
Posts: 1976
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:13 pm Reply with quote
Oh, the ushiwakamaru outfit is even better. It's a subversion of "skanky armour is actually very high level", she is wearing that armour because her brother gave it to her, and the armour sucks because her brother wants her to get killed asap.
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Kicksville



Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 783
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:55 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
It feels like the good outweighs the crap in a way Fate really hasn't for me since probably Apocrypha's finale.

Kinda feel the opposite myself - the video game-y story structure of "exposition then boss fight" nearly every episode has been incredibly boring, and I haven't found those quiet moments to be terribly compelling. I will agree that Ritsuka is at least not like, bad or annoying as some other protagonists tend to be, but it still doesn't make him not dull.

Said boss fights are certainly very good, and will be on everyone's sakuga reels for the next 20 years, so it does have that going for it.

I am waiting for the good part I assume will come, more Gilgamesh and Enkidu and digging into their whole deal. If that doesn't deliver...well, Fate Fatigue is real, I'll just say that.
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kameoosama



Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 42
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:38 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
and it was partially selected for adaptation by fans because it's one of the only stories that isn't garbage.

I feel like I gotta hop in and defend the earlier arcs here. They weren't exactly high art or anything but I think they all had their own charm, and I really appreciate those chapters mostly being about how heroic spirits deal with the baggage from their old life or how they bounce off of characters from other ages. Like what drug me back into the game after letting it just sit on my phone for 2 years was funny screencaps of character dialogue and Camelot so far has had much less of that for me. Like I can't wait until they're trying to adapt all of the singularities after this show makes bank and we're getting ONAs for like the Medb prison escape stuff so everyone gets to see the cheese derringer bit.

Also minor complaint that isn't really addressed in the game either, but I would really like the show to just kind of acknowledge that Mash isn't Ritsuka's only servant. Like it would obviously be a bit tone breaking for him to be all "Double Merlin" and start buff stacking plugsuit shenanigans to make characters hit like a (nuclear) truck, but they could sneak in an Asterios for a fight or have Emiya cooking lunch for Roman and Da vinci back in Chaldea or something. just something besides Mash and your guest support NPCs.
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zrnzle500
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Joined: 04 Oct 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:41 pm Reply with quote
I think this has been the best adaptation that game players could hope for, faithfully adapting the material while giving the anime staff the space to put their own touch on it. While I don't mean to downplay the other ways that the anime staff have bolstered the material, I think the anime was always going to be more effective than the game itself to some extent, given that the game's dialog scenes are primarily shown in the style of a visual novel, which limits how animated those scenes can be, character animation or otherwise. Something like the anime's depiction of Leonidas' last stand was probably going to be more effective than his character art sliding down a bit while the dialog goes along or even a artful still picture (I'd have to rewatch that part of the game to be sure but it was one or both of those options), especially with the level of the animation of this adaptation. There's a reason game players wanted (and want) to see it adapted to anime, even beyond the fight scenes. Not to say that dialog and limited animation can't or don't carry their own weight, but that the addition of animation (at the level of this adaptation) was likely going to bolster the effect of a number of scenes to some extent, unless they really screwed it up.

kameoosama wrote:
Like I can't wait until they're trying to adapt all of the singularities after this show makes bank and we're getting ONAs for like the Medb prison escape stuff so everyone gets to see the cheese derringer bit.


As much as I would like to see more adapted, it would likely be more challenging to adapt, particularly to keep those who haven't played the game along for the ride. I don't know that they are going to go back before Camelot, with them being weaker plots than the two that are currently being adapted (though I do agree that they have their own merits). The Final Singularity would be practically inaccessible to those who haven't played the game, given the characters that appear in it spoiler[Not only all the servants from the previous Singularities, but also servants from all the events up until the final Singularity was released], so it could only be adapted as fanservice for game players. I'd like to see some of the stories in Arc 1.5 (which the NA version is almost finished with) adapted, but they call back to previous Singularities (and events) more than those in the first Arc, which could make them a little less accessible to those who haven't played the game. Adapting the events would also probably be challenging for anime-only viewers, both because of the servants who were first introduced in prior parts of the game as well as the events being more meta than the Singularities. I don't think it would be impossible or not worthwhile to adapt other parts of the game, just that it could be more difficult to keep anime only viewers along for the ride.
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Kisuke525



Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 45
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:34 am Reply with quote
kameoosama wrote:
Quote:
and it was partially selected for adaptation by fans because it's one of the only stories that isn't garbage.

I feel like I gotta hop in and defend the earlier arcs here. They weren't exactly high art or anything but I think they all had their own charm, and I really appreciate those chapters mostly being about how heroic spirits deal with the baggage from their old life or how they bounce off of characters from other ages. Like what drug me back into the game after letting it just sit on my phone for 2 years was funny screencaps of character dialogue and Camelot so far has had much less of that for me. Like I can't wait until they're trying to adapt all of the singularities after this show makes bank and we're getting ONAs for like the Medb prison escape stuff so everyone gets to see the cheese derringer bit.

Also minor complaint that isn't really addressed in the game either, but I would really like the show to just kind of acknowledge that Mash isn't Ritsuka's only servant. Like it would obviously be a bit tone breaking for him to be all "Double Merlin" and start buff stacking plugsuit shenanigans to make characters hit like a (nuclear) truck, but they could sneak in an Asterios for a fight or have Emiya cooking lunch for Roman and Da vinci back in Chaldea or something. just something besides Mash and your guest support NPCs.


I completely agree about the earlier arcs. They weren't masterpieces but they were all pretty fun. The character interactions were good, they had some pretty decent comedy at times, and with this quality of animation they would have some pretty great fights to. I think calling them garbage is really underselling them. And yeah I really hope they adapt as many singularties as they can.
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BlickWinkel



Joined: 08 Dec 2009
Posts: 3
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:29 am Reply with quote
Uh the “Poesidon raped Medusa and she was cursed as punishment” thing is only one version of her legend, out of hundreds of different versions told, and one completely unrelated to Nasu’s take on her, it’s not “glossing over” anything. The original FSN, and it’s sequel, Hollow Ataraxia cover her backstory and none of it involves “glossing over rape”.
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Sabruness



Joined: 23 Oct 2019
Posts: 14
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:36 am Reply with quote
As someone who has only a tangential connection to the Fateverse (playing a little bit of the VN and watching Carnival Phantasm and Prisma Illya), I dont really know the ins and outs of everything but i might actually give this particular adaptation a shot because it looks so interesting.

Kudos to the TWIA crew for yet another excellent column. Many times your column has actually helped me to decide on whether to watch certain anime or not.
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Panayiotis



Joined: 02 Aug 2017
Posts: 66
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:01 pm Reply with quote
Kisuke525 wrote:

I completely agree about the earlier arcs. They weren't masterpieces but they were all pretty fun. The character interactions were good, they had some pretty decent comedy at times, and with this quality of animation they would have some pretty great fights to. I think calling them garbage is really underselling them. And yeah I really hope they adapt as many singularties as they can.


The problem with the early arcs is that they are very much 1 minute of character interactions for every 15 minutes of killing wyverns. There just isn't enough content to fill an anime season. You could probably salvage the American singularity into a below average anime, but you could have a budget of 10 billion and Septem would still be an lost cause.
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Chrono1000



Joined: 05 Oct 2013
Posts: 1321
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:43 pm Reply with quote
Personally I thought that Taiga beating up the protagonists while wearing goofy pajamas was both nicely animated and hilarious. It does help a lot if you have watched the previous Fate series where Taiga is the best background character. Also episode 8 of FGO had the second best fight scene I have seen this year right after episode 19 of Demon Slayer.

BlickWinkel wrote:
Uh the “Poesidon raped Medusa and she was cursed as punishment” thing is only one version of her legend, out of hundreds of different versions told, and one completely unrelated to Nasu’s take on her, it’s not “glossing over” anything. The original FSN, and it’s sequel, Hollow Ataraxia cover her backstory and none of it involves “glossing over rape”.

True, and that particular version of the Medusa myth has nothing to do with the Fate universe or the back story that was described in the games. Nasu writes some grimdark stuff and I get that some people dislike that but it is strange how often he is blamed for something that he had nothing to do with.
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Kisuke525



Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 45
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:49 pm Reply with quote
Panayiotis wrote:
Kisuke525 wrote:

I completely agree about the earlier arcs. They weren't masterpieces but they were all pretty fun. The character interactions were good, they had some pretty decent comedy at times, and with this quality of animation they would have some pretty great fights to. I think calling them garbage is really underselling them. And yeah I really hope they adapt as many singularties as they can.


The problem with the early arcs is that they are very much 1 minute of character interactions for every 15 minutes of killing wyverns. There just isn't enough content to fill an anime season. You could probably salvage the American singularity into a below average anime, but you could have a budget of 10 billion and Septem would still be an lost cause.


And why couldn't a season cover more than 1 singularity at a time? A season wouldn't have to cover only 1 singularity.
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yurigasaki



Joined: 06 Apr 2015
Posts: 113
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:24 pm Reply with quote
Chrono1000 wrote:
BlickWinkel wrote:
Uh the “Poesidon raped Medusa and she was cursed as punishment” thing is only one version of her legend, out of hundreds of different versions told, and one completely unrelated to Nasu’s take on her, it’s not “glossing over” anything. The original FSN, and it’s sequel, Hollow Ataraxia cover her backstory and none of it involves “glossing over rape”.

True, and that particular version of the Medusa myth has nothing to do with the Fate universe or the back story that was described in the games. Nasu writes some grimdark stuff and I get that some people dislike that but it is strange how often he is blamed for something that he had nothing to do with.


It's also worth noting that "Poseidon raped Medusa" isn't even a "real" version of the legend anyway – like, obviously, all the legends about Medusa are made up, but the version of her backstory that asserts that she was punished for being a victim of rape was explicitly made up by a contemporary writer in Greece with a political agenda. It's been embraced by modern-day culture, probably because we're all monsterfuckers who love a sympathetic lady monster, but "Medusa as a rape victim" is actually less valid of a read than other interpretations and I don't think Nasu should catch any flack for not going with it.
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maximilianjenus



Joined: 29 Apr 2013
Posts: 1976
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:00 pm Reply with quote
Chrono1000 wrote:
Personally I thought that Taiga beating up the protagonists while wearing goofy pajamas was both nicely animated and hilarious. It does help a lot if you have watched the previous Fate series where Taiga is the best background character. Also episode 8 of FGO had the second best fight scene I have seen this year right after episode 19 of Demon Slayer.


Taiga's pajamas are also pretty accurate to what the mesoamerican jaguar warrirors wore.
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doctorx0079



Joined: 26 Jun 2010
Posts: 38
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:12 pm Reply with quote
yurigasaki wrote:
the version of her backstory that asserts that she was punished for being a victim of rape was explicitly made up by a contemporary writer in Greece with a political agenda.


Huh? Wiki says it was Ovid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medusa I don't understand the reasoning but it comes from Ovid. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "contemporary".
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ATastySub



Joined: 19 Jan 2012
Posts: 147
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:51 pm Reply with quote
yurigasaki wrote:
Chrono1000 wrote:
BlickWinkel wrote:
Uh the “Poesidon raped Medusa and she was cursed as punishment” thing is only one version of her legend, out of hundreds of different versions told, and one completely unrelated to Nasu’s take on her, it’s not “glossing over” anything. The original FSN, and it’s sequel, Hollow Ataraxia cover her backstory and none of it involves “glossing over rape”.

True, and that particular version of the Medusa myth has nothing to do with the Fate universe or the back story that was described in the games. Nasu writes some grimdark stuff and I get that some people dislike that but it is strange how often he is blamed for something that he had nothing to do with.


It's also worth noting that "Poseidon raped Medusa" isn't even a "real" version of the legend anyway – like, obviously, all the legends about Medusa are made up, but the version of her backstory that asserts that she was punished for being a victim of rape was explicitly made up by a contemporary writer in Greece with a political agenda. It's been embraced by modern-day culture, probably because we're all monsterfuckers who love a sympathetic lady monster, but "Medusa as a rape victim" is actually less valid of a read than other interpretations and I don't think Nasu should catch any flack for not going with it.

As the previous poster already pointed out that was Ovid, which sure doesn't feel like what you were grasping for here. As to the second part of your comment it's really hard to read that way in Fate, as the franchise has by now long established that using these characters is completely meant as a shorthand with any exceptions then being spelled out. It's also established that this means they are the most widely known versions of these characters, and in the case of Medusa Ovid's has long been that. Since nearly 0 BC. This is why it's established that learning a Servant's name was so important because you could easily trace their abilities and weaknesses from their well known stories. So when we get King Arthur we get the explanation of "but girl" because it's an important exception. For Gilgamesh and Enkidu we have their inherent love story. For Medusa we inherently get rape victim, and not only is there no switch here but that original reading ties into Fate's continual problem with "victimized woman becomes a monster that wants revenge on everything." So no, this isn't about having nothing to do with it. It's about recognizing what you're doing with what's there, and that means he's either ignorant about the connotation he did here but has knowingly done with every other character, which would be very unlikely but still easily and worth being criticized for, or he's fully aware and it's a really bad choice. Either way he is absolutely only being criticized for his choices and trying to shield that under the idea that he's either an oblivious idiot or that somehow the influences and histories of other stories or media don't carry weight and connotation to them is a really flimsy argument.
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yurigasaki



Joined: 06 Apr 2015
Posts: 113
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:41 pm Reply with quote
doctorx0079 wrote:
yurigasaki wrote:
the version of her backstory that asserts that she was punished for being a victim of rape was explicitly made up by a contemporary writer in Greece with a political agenda.


Huh? Wiki says it was Ovid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medusa I don't understand the reasoning but it comes from Ovid. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "contemporary".


That was my bad, sorry! When I say "contemporary", I mean contemporary to Ancient Greece (which probably would've been more obvious if i'd remembered to say that in my original post lol). Giving Nasu shit for not going with Ovid's take on her just seems to me like– I don't know, getting mad because someone's fictionalized take on Jesus is based on more obscure scriptures and not like, the Passion Of The Christ or something.

I also just personally think that the last thing original F/SN needed was Even More Sexual Assault, but that's just me
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