Forum - View topic

This Week in Anime - Babylon Has a Whore Complex

At the moment, rather than an indictment of women's sexuality being the root of all evil, this looks more to me like an indictment of men's inability to control themselves, projecting their desires onto the women they desire and faulting those women for their own lack of self-control. It reminds me a lot of Lolita, where the story is told entirely from Humbert's point of view, and so she becomes a seductress in his eyes because he was seduced by his own desire for her. Ai also seems to have more of the Sirens legend going for her than the Whore of Babylon, though she only needs to whisper rather than sing to lure men (and women) to their deaths.

Even Ai's "shapeshifting" seems to either be directly or metaphorically about men projecting onto her what they want to see, rather than the reality of who she is. So until that's better explained, along with her power as the suicide whisperer, I've got to withhold judgement of what this is ultimately trying to say.

I also keep getting a less refined Johan (Monster) vibe from her, but I can't tell at this point whether that's just low-key appropriation of the mood, or if there's going to be something larger behind the sense that she was created to be the damaged but supremely manipulative person she is.

I really like the show. It's a genre I'm not too familiar with, but it's done well and the plot isn't predictable (which tends to make things boring). I find the characters to be interesting, and don't get the impression at all that it's anything against women. Both women and men are the victims of Magase Ai.

I also like the philosophical questions it brings, and the visuals are kinda dark and creepy at times.

I'm kind of surprised and confused why people are all on here throwing hate at this series... if it's not your thing, that's 100% cool, but do you have nothing better to do than hang out and announce to strangers how much you dislike something? I can't stand Boku no Hero Academia, and I've posted on that show's articles precisely zero times.

I really like the show. It's a genre I'm not too familiar with, but it's done well and the plot isn't predictable (which tends to make things boring). I find the characters to be interesting, and don't get the impression at all that it's anything against women. Both women and men are the victims of Magase Ai.

I also like the philosophical questions it brings, and the visuals are kinda dark and creepy at times.

I'm kind of surprised and confused why people are all on here throwing hate at this series... if it's not your thing, that's 100% cool, but do you have nothing better to do than hang out and announce to strangers how much you dislike something? I can't stand Boku no Hero Academia, and I've posted on that show's articles precisely zero times.

I find the characters to be interesting, and don't get the impression at all that it's anything against women. Both women and men are the victims of Magase Ai.

I really like the show. It's a genre I'm not too familiar with, but it's done well and the plot isn't predictable (which tends to make things boring). I find the characters to be interesting, and don't get the impression at all that it's anything against women. Both women and men are the victims of Magase Ai.

I also like the philosophical questions it brings, and the visuals are kinda dark and creepy at times.

I'm kind of surprised and confused why people are all on here throwing hate at this series... if it's not your thing, that's 100% cool, but do you have nothing better to do than hang out and announce to strangers how much you dislike something? I can't stand Boku no Hero Academia, and I've posted on that show's articles precisely zero times.

MidoriUma wrote:

I really like the show. It's a genre I'm not too familiar with, but it's done well and the plot isn't predictable (which tends to make things boring). I find the characters to be interesting, and don't get the impression at all that it's anything against women. Both women and men are the victims of Magase Ai. I also like the philosophical questions it brings, and the visuals are kinda dark and creepy at times. I'm kind of surprised and confused why people are all on here throwing hate at this series... if it's not your thing, that's 100% cool, but do you have nothing better to do than hang out and announce to strangers how much you dislike something? I can't stand Boku no Hero Academia, and I've posted on that show's articles precisely zero times.

How is saying how much you like a show better than saying how much you dislike a show, assuming both are serious posts with compelling arguments and not some trolling? Why so many people in anime communities (I see that argument a lot at MAL as well) treat criticism as something bad? I don't see why circlejerks have a moral higher ground.

As for Tomie, I would love if it would be like Tomie, and much of my disappointment was with the way Ai Magase turned out to be.

Halko wrote:

The issue is as much or more of an issue of toxic masculinity as it is anything else. Guys getting a free pass on sleeping around is stupid as hell and gives men a bad name.

I don't disagree with you, I just didn't want to derail the conversation by talking about masculinity when the show is primarily focused on "the evils of feminine wiles".

While I appreciate the viewpoint of those who see this as unadulterated misogyny, I don't share that view (yet) and am unwilling to dig in on one side or the other until the series is over, as there are too many unanswered questions at this point, and still abundant opportunities for it to save itself (but if Kado is any indication, those may yet be squandered, and since I'm weighing in here mostly on Babylon's side, it almost certainly will go belly up by the end).

At the moment, rather than an indictment of women's sexuality being the root of all evil, this looks more to me like an indictment of men's inability to control themselves, projecting their desires onto the women they desire and faulting those women for their own lack of self-control. It reminds me a lot of Lolita, where the story is told entirely from Humbert's point of view, and so she becomes a seductress in his eyes because he was seduced by his own desire for her. Ai also seems to have more of the Sirens legend going for her than the Whore of Babylon, though she only needs to whisper rather than sing to lure men (and women) to their deaths.

Even Ai's "shapeshifting" seems to either be directly or metaphorically about men projecting onto her what they want to see, rather than the reality of who she is. So until that's better explained, along with her power as the suicide whisperer, I've got to withhold judgement of what this is ultimately trying to say.

I also keep getting a less refined Johan (Monster) vibe from her, but I can't tell at this point whether that's just low-key appropriation of the mood, or if there's going to be something larger behind the sense that she was created to be the damaged but supremely manipulative person she is.

But there several problems with this argument.

Iron Maw wrote:

But there several problems with this argument.

Your rebuttal doesn't really address my argument, which was in opposition to the idea that Babylon is ragingly misogynist (though it could still turn out to be), an idea which you also disagree with, I think? But you're arguing the practical aspects of the story, while I was mostly concerned with trying to figure out what underlying point it's trying to make (which I think it's ultimately too soon to tell, given the unanswered questions about Ai's true nature). I didn't make any assertions either way about the investigation, so I'm not sure why you're taking me to task for that.

Even though she can affect women too (which I did acknowledge), the story has mainly looked at Ai through the eyes of its almost entirely male cast, so that's what I focused on as well when trying to determine any meaning or misogyny behind the story.

I put "shapeshifting" in quotes for a reason. From what I've seen she alters her physical appearance through normal means like makeup, hair style, more or less body and facial padding, and how she carries herself, which may be the most important part of her disguises. Once they realize it's Ai, she always looks like Ai at some fundamental level. It's not like she gains a hundred pounds and 4 inches in height in five minutes kind of shapeshifting. There doesn't seem to be anything supernatural about it other than possibly the extent of her ability to appear to be what others expect her to look like. Her suicide-whispering, on the other hand...that's the real wild card at the moment.

As for Itsuki's son, we don't have enough information to know why he accepted her (for that matter, we still don't know what happened to him!). Maybe Istuki presented her as his stepmom, and she's been playing that role for awhile. Maybe he was coached to pretend she was his mother. We barely saw them together, so maybe he was too preoccupied with everything else and didn't notice since her general appearance fit his expectations.

[b]
I disagree, though, that the show is interested in her killings or her superpowers. No attempt is made to explain or contextualize them and only token attempts are made to stop them. Zen never tells anyone about her full powers, never warns his coworkers or devises protections for them. Wear earplugs, hire a deaf person, hire a eunuch, try something, anything. He doesn’t treat her as a threat to public safety, organize a manhunt, develop a criminal profile, try to predict her next actions, or generally try to make it harder for her to act. He doesn’t attempt to define or test the limits of her shapeshifting. It’s like he doesn’t believe she really has these powers, despite her killing everyone around him with them. And yet he doesn’t try to verify or disprove the powers’ existence, either. He doesn’t really talk at length to the people who have met her, to try to explain her - like really follow up on the ridiculousness of this story. And no one shows the slightest disapproval with Zen’s inaction.

So, in my opinion, that just leaves the effects she has on people. That’s what the show spends its runtime portraying whenever it’s portraying her. All the show seems to care about is that this representation of female seduces people to death. Anyone and everyone, men and women alike. The show is interested in portraying sexual attraction itself as scary, and seduction as a malicious threat. The only question in my mind is which sex the show will ultimately vilify more with this.

Zen doesn't do anything of what you suggest because

1) He's only met her like 3 times.
2) He's still treating her like a a normal criminal. Its not until ep7 he wasn't much more to her than that and it's not like he didn't investigate her past.