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Locked Up for Dress Up: Cosplayers Recount Harrowing Week in Malaysian Prison


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Joe Mello



Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 2251
Location: Online Terminal
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:58 am Reply with quote
AkumaChef wrote:
But that said it's in everyone's interest, including your own, to do your homework before you travel anywhere.

They did that, and it still apparently wasn't enough.

I've been to foreign countries before and know what I need to do in most situations, but you aren't going to be prepared for everything, let alone someone who just wants you to suffer. A good number of foreign countries don't want you in their country, but will tolerate your presence because they want your money, so you had better hope that no one suddenly decides to make an example out of you for their agenda because it's very likely that if you are in trouble, no amount of lawyering will get you out cleanly.

By making this argument, you're basically saying "they asked for it."
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AkumaChef



Joined: 10 Jan 2019
Posts: 821
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:08 am Reply with quote
Joe Mello wrote:

They did that, and it still apparently wasn't enough.

I'm aware; I said so in the first page of replies on this topic. "Doing your homework" isn't infallible, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it.

Quote:
I've been to foreign countries before and know what I need to do in most situations, but you aren't going to be prepared for everything, let alone someone who just wants you to suffer. A good number of foreign countries don't want you in their country, but will tolerate your presence because they want your money, so you had better hope that no one suddenly decides to make an example out of you for their agenda because it's very likely that if you are in trouble, no amount of lawyering will get you out cleanly.

Of course that's true. Even if you did everything 100% legally it's always possible that if you manage to piss off the wrong person they'll "lose" your paperwork, accuse you of forging it, or throw you in prison (or worse) on made-up charges. That doesn't mean you shouldn't make an effort on your own though.

Quote:
By making this argument, you're basically saying "they asked for it."

At this point in the conversation I am speaking generally and I am no longer talking about the specific incident in the article. I already said back on the first page that the people here asked all the right questions. I'm not blaming them for what happened. I am speaking generally, and saying that if you, or I, or anyone else is planning to travel to a foreign country for any reason it is prudent to do your homework before you go. That's no more victim blaming than telling people to lock their doors or to use strong passwords on their computer.
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Hiroki not Takuya



Joined: 17 Apr 2012
Posts: 2501
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:37 pm Reply with quote
MidoriUma wrote:
Moral of the story is simple. YOU are responsible for learning about, and obeying all laws in a foreign country (including visa laws). Trusting someone you don't know that they took care of it, or that it's not a big deal, is a VERY dangerous prospect....
It would do people well to read up on laws and visa status before they go to a country. What may constitute fair and decent treatment in your home country might be quite different from another.. Talk to a lawyer next time.
I think requiring becoming something like a legal expert on the laws, especially visa and immigration law, of a place you casually travel to is completely unreasonable. Maybe you have to do that for Malaysia now but as Mr SickVisions said, better not to go. If tourism suffers, it's on the officials who let it happen or don't come down hard on the perpetrators.

Also the "do your homework" bit seems to try to shift responsibility to the victim whereas the responsibility logically falls to the event organizer and if you can't trust them to know the local requirements and communicate them accurately at least you are correct that you as "hosed". Again, better not to risk it and just not go. Of course people should be knowledgeable about event-specific requirements and restrictions but most countries have similar laws and like others have pointed out, where corruption is significant, knowing all the laws and having all the right documentation won't help.

What probably saved the foreigners was Mr. Roca succeeding in contacting his embassy. "Saved?.. Why would they be sent to a death camp for a visa problem?" you say. I'd bet some beautiful young Japanese women who could be "made to disappear" with their ID and phones conveniently missing would go for a high price to someone...
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SheRrIs





PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:40 am Reply with quote
Malaysia. Not even once. Whomever raises a hand against one of us, raises a hand against all of us. I say, boycott Malaysia. Don't travel there. Don't buy products with palm oil in them.
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nargun



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 924
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:07 am Reply with quote
I mean, if you're going to run a boycott on account of immgration detention conditions....

Nobody's had their child literally ripped from their arms and "adopted" into god-knows what with no paperwork, like the US government did. The malaysian government didn't burn all the paperwork and tell everyone it was up to them to prove they were there legally, like the british government did. Nobody's committed suicide in dispair as happens regularly in australian migration detention.

I mean, by all means people can have strong opinions about proper treatment of people in migration detention, but.... everything I just mentioned got pretty wide reportage in the countries in question -- stuff adults really are expected to know about -- and it's all rather indisputably worse than anything the malaysian government is accused of doing here, isn't it. So.... all those people who want to do something about improving these things, well... Malaysia is an odd place to start, I think, if you're an english-speaking non-malaysian.

Or are you just hooked on the endorphin rush you get from condemnation and think that the malaysian government -- which has long sucked for reasons most of you have never heard of -- is as safer target than the US or the UK or Australia's?
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SheRrIs





PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:38 am Reply with quote
Deacon Blues wrote:
Meongantuk wrote:
Mr. sickVisionz wrote:
Sounds like a great reason to never visit Malaysia under any circumstances.


It's mostly the organizer's fault though, for not providing the work visa, yes there's that guy who reported, but the organizer is still at fault.




No, it's not just the organizer who is at fault. Participants are equally as guilty for blindly following everything without doing research on their own and making sure everything is situated.

As someone stated earlier, if you're going to a foreign country, you are expected to know every rule/law and what not on the books. As a tourist or visitor you cannot claim that you "didn't know." If anything, despite the fact that these cosplayers and judges were subjected to horrendous conditions, should have known to double check on a lot of things. Heck, if this person has been doing this stuff for 17 years and suddenly didn't need a specific type of documentation should've been a red flag. Even if they were told that "everything would've been taken care of" there should've been some check ups done leading up to this event.

Victim-blaming much? There are institutions and international and local laws which protect people from extortion, state thuggery, unfair treatment, yet you blame the victims! Why not blame these institutions instead??? You sound like an authoritarian-state apologist.

nargun wrote:
I mean, if you're going to run a boycott on account of immgration detention conditions....

Nobody's had their child literally ripped from their arms and "adopted" into god-knows what with no paperwork, like the US government did. The malaysian government didn't burn all the paperwork and tell everyone it was up to them to prove they were there legally, like the british government did. Nobody's committed suicide in dispair as happens regularly in australian migration detention.

I mean, by all means people can have strong opinions about proper treatment of people in migration detention, but.... everything I just mentioned got pretty wide reportage in the countries in question -- stuff adults really are expected to know about -- and it's all rather indisputably worse than anything the malaysian government is accused of doing here, isn't it. So.... all those people who want to do something about improving these things, well... Malaysia is an odd place to start, I think, if you're an english-speaking non-malaysian.

Or are you just hooked on the endorphin rush you get from condemnation and think that the malaysian government -- which has long sucked for reasons most of you have never heard of -- is as safer target than the US or the UK or Australia's?

Triggered much? What agenda do you have, defending corrupt scumbags?
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nargun



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 924
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:16 am Reply with quote
Sherris wrote:
Triggered much? What agenda do you have, defending corrupt scumbags?


To cut to the chase: what exactly do you want me to do, here?

I mean, presumably there is something you have in mind, some sort of action I could take that's the action you want me to take, something that would leave you satisfied. Having me guess is inefficient, really: if you know what you want, you can tell me, and if you don't know you can tell me that and we can work together.
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Kaylee Smerbeck



Joined: 26 Jul 2017
Posts: 144
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:53 pm Reply with quote
Sadly there isn't much people can do. Like the closest thing I can think of is maybe asking r/legal advice before leaving but even then its not always good advice
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micah007



Joined: 25 Jan 2017
Posts: 205
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:54 pm Reply with quote
As it has been said you should always do your homework beforehand. A cursory information search will inform you of Malaysia's varied and serious problems, which then should immediately factor into your decision making if and when you choose to enter the country and influence every subsequent decision from then on, if you aren't doing this then you do so at your own peril. Of course doing this won't prepare you for every situation (no one said it should) but more knowledge and understanding will never hurt. Any guards and other prison officials who enjoyed tormenting those involved should be ashamed of themselves. I am horrified by their experience and do not blame them for what happened. I hope no one is severely traumatized by the treatment they endured.
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ChimeyChime



Joined: 02 Mar 2018
Posts: 63
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 2:22 pm Reply with quote
Mr. sickVisionz wrote:
Sounds like a great reason to never visit Malaysia under any circumstances.


Yup. This.
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5821
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:23 pm Reply with quote
micah007 wrote:
Any guards and other prison officials who enjoyed tormenting those involved should be ashamed of themselves.

Shame is the last thing they should feel. They should feel unending despair at the loss of their humanity. As they have no problem doing unto others this way, may more eviler people find them, and do unto them.
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ranran-001



Joined: 25 Oct 2018
Posts: 532
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:57 pm Reply with quote
Malaysia has been a spot for anime conventions in the past, what conditions, exactly made things go to shit starting from March 2019 and onward?

Has any laws been passed recently? Are there any laws that existed on the books that were not being enforced until recently? Or is it just a case of corruption and abuse of power?

Any of these things should have been known to the convention organizer, and most of the blame clearly lies on that person.
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TheAuthor#903113



Joined: 16 Dec 2019
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:48 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Malaysia has been a spot for anime conventions in the past, what conditions, exactly made things go to shit starting from March 2019 and onward?

Has any laws been passed recently? Are there any laws that existed on the books that were not being enforced until recently? Or is it just a case of corruption and abuse of power?


Oh good, we're in.

Hi there, someone from Malaysia here, who was at that Geek Summit shite show. <Insert mental insults being dished out here>

To answer the question, here's what we know from months of digging around.

Following the March 2019 incident, the Immigration Department classified ACG Events (The term folks here in South East Asia call Anime Conventions) as events that require special permits for foreign guests who make an appearance there.

Basically, this PUSPAL thing. (https://www.imi.gov.my/index.php/en/pass.html?id=287)

Which is required, if your foreign guest does any of the following,
- Be featured as the event's promotional material,
- Perform or go on stage,
- Have a booth to do business,

Just to name a few.

In short, the law was slightly altered than changed, even though this Permit had existed before but prior to March 2019, ACG Events in Malaysia had often kept the proper paperwork going anyways, such that Immigration found no issue with them.

Long as the paperwork was there, they don't give a crap.

The reason behind this change was the result of their first time exposure to raiding the March 2019 event.

We say raiding because, prior to that March 2019 event, they called up the organizer guy for that event, advising him to call off the event or there will be trouble, because he had failed to secure the proper permits for the foreign guests.

...which, never happened.

Thus why they had to assume it was an illegal operation, and start detaining every single foreign person there without Permits.

Speaking of which, the organizer for the March 2019 event, intentionally did not applied for the permits, at all.

To the point that following the incident, there was an unreported court case between him, and Immigration on his negligence for applying permits.

The verdict is still up in the air, this was the one thing we've been unable to check out since...court cases and stuff.

By the way, the same guy who ran the March 2019 event, was the ex-boss for some folks who worked at the Geek Summit event.

Following the incident in March, many of them denounced and disowned the March 2019 organizer guy, because of his failure to take responsibility for his actions.

To the point that, it's not too far fetched that the snitch bribing immigration to drop by Geek Summit to cause trouble, isn't too far fetched.

Side note, this March Organizer guy...is part of, what we here in Malaysia call, one of the deep state families.

Basically, the guy's family has deep pockets within the Malaysian Government to call up "favors", to the point that a department like Immigration sort of bows to his whim.

Within reason of course, he can't make it too obvious that he's calling their shots.

Also on a side note about Immigration, they are a bag of dicks.

These are the same people still doing on the ground illegal activities at the Thai Border, so not the kind of department people can fully trust.

As for Geek Summit, yes, on the surface level they did fail to secure the proper PUSPAL permit.

However, that's not say that Immigration played fair as well, as their verbal assurance that the event doesn't need such a permit, is also questionable.

Almost as though, they want to setup the proper circumstances to raid such an event.

Geek Summit was in Shah Alam of course, relatively near their offices if you will.

Now, present day.

Far as we're concerned, the March 2019 and Geek Summit incidents are the only times where Cosplayers have gotten in hot soup over Immigration.

Yet, following that there's quite a lot of events following Geek Summit that managed to put together the proper permits to ensure their events wind up smoothly,

- Star Supa Comic #002 2019
- Japan Expo 2019
- AniManGaki 2019
- Ballare 2019
- AsiaComicCon 2019
- Comic Fiesta 2019 (This weekend by the way)

Look these up, you'd be surprised at what you can find.

Some people for some reason assume that Malaysia deserves the flak, which yes, we do.

However, that won't exactly stop the many well established organizations within Malaysia to continue doing what they do best.

Immigration is annoying, and they have retribution coming.

But, we can assure you that, things aren't going down anytime soon.

It just gets harder. And difficulty is where the fun's at.

To say that the locals aren't pissed off about what happened too is dismissive.

MANY folks here are just as pissed off at the March 2019 incident, more than Geek Summit on the grounds of many complicated things we can go on but maybe later.

Essentially, the road to redemption is a long one. And one, you will not stop seeing the Malaysian scene continue pushing for.

And well...I don't know about yall cheap talking folks who aren't leaving your home countries soon, that's your choice and we respect that.

Those Neet bucks don't buy anything of course.

TL;DR.
This story is complicated.

But, like the Federation Network, would you like to know more?

Find out more at a SiteInRelief or something.
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Cutiebunny



Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 1746
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:26 am Reply with quote
TheAuthor#903113 wrote:
Immigration is annoying, and they have retribution coming.


LOL no they don't.

What usually happens in cases like this (if there ever is any serious public interest) is that the people working at the lowest levels are the ones that are punished and dragged in front of the media, while those that were also responsible but are higher up in the echelon and/or have better connections won't be affected. You only need to look at the July 2019 scandal involving the US Border Patrol Chief, Carla Provost, and her involvement in the vulgar Facebook page. Provost kept her job. The lower ranking officers involved were not as fortunate.

Judging from what I read in the article and your comments, the Malaysian public is not at all concerned about this case.

I agree with several posters that it is the responsibility of every traveler visiting a foreign country to do their research as to what additional documents, if any, might be needed to visit, work, perform, etc. Do you have a criminal history, particularly if that involves narcotics? If you do, chances are high that you're going to need to obtain a visa in order to overcome that issue. Are you going to be paid to work/perform at that event? You're most likely going to need a visa as many countries, such as the US, have regulations prohibiting this (and why US conventions tend to run afoul of this whenever they invite musicians). While it would be nice if every convention, trade show, etc. obtains legal advice from immigration lawyers prior to inviting foreign guests, the reality is that many of these conventions have a limited budget and choose not to spend it on immigration lawyers.
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TheAuthor#903113



Joined: 16 Dec 2019
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:00 am Reply with quote
Quote:
Judging from what I read in the article and your comments, the Malaysian public is not at all concerned about this case.


Wow, we got us here a self proclaimed psychic power man here, no please, tell us more about what you claim to see.

And not at all concerned about the case? Good joke.

Pretty sure more arrests would've happened as a result, if the Malaysian really didn't care.

But...last time I checked...yeah, nothing happened over the last 6 months.

Less your psychic powers can show us some thing that 'happened', that's a cute claim.

Now here's an abridged version of the last 6 months,

- There are lawyers working with the Malaysian Ministry of Youth and Immigration to create this category of events, to officiate and legalize it. Basically, no more Immigration Officer's interpretation crap. Progress on this is slow, as legislation always is.

- Many events have been consistently showcasing their approved documents, as hardcore claims and proof that Immigration has already approved their guests, and that them trying anything is basically just them being walking dicks. No Immigration interference has occurred at any of these events yet.

- Funny enough, there's a sizable amount of foreign guests who still continue being featured guests at various events. Which says a lot, that this incident has not stopped the local scene's organizers from F-ing around with permits.

Not concerned you say? Pretty sure the only one unconcerned is the self proclaimed psychic bunny here.
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