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Best LGBTQ+ Characters of 2019


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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
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Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:03 pm Reply with quote
Megiddo wrote:
asneakysnake wrote:
Machikado Mazoku is gets snubbed again. Why is it so unpopular in the west?!

It's not unpopular in the west. Just unpopular on ANN.

Definitely a terrible omission in this list though.

I suspect that it being on HIDIVE only may have hurt it a bit. And while I love those two as a duo, I'm not sure I see anything romantic in that pairing.
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Nobooks



Joined: 06 Dec 2018
Posts: 8
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:06 pm Reply with quote
Jin_Uzuki wrote:
Nobooks wrote:
I'm really surprised that Enta wasn't mentioned at all given the mention of Reo and Mabu. I mean, unlike them he's one of the main characters and is gay.

I would argue Reo and Mabu are main characters too, they are super central to the narrative. Also Enta's arc was... not very good and kinda went nowhere, as well it not being particularly original (Yet another gay side character in love with the main protagonist?).


Reo and Mabu are important, but they're not main characters. It shows in their screentime and how sparsely covered they are up until the end.

>Yet another gay side character in love with the main protagonist
No, there's a pretty big difference when it's one of the three marketed main characters which Enta is. If you're going to criticize Enta's narrative, Reomabu isn't anything special on the surface level either: gay villain suffering, which is another trope.

I like both, but I think it's the way they're executed and their focus in the series that makes them interesting. You can boil anything down to a trope.

But I'll be honest, I liked Enta a lot more than Reomabu for showing the complicated feelings of in love and young and dealing with those emotions. The jealousy. The desire and love that are both part of it. He's a classic Ikuhara Anthy/Ringo (flawed character who does frustrating things due to their circumstances, but ultimately has a sympathetic narrative hinged around them) who's allowed to be open about being gay, which is something I desperately wanted in an Ikuhara work.
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Megiddo



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 8360
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:16 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
Megiddo wrote:
asneakysnake wrote:
Machikado Mazoku is gets snubbed again. Why is it so unpopular in the west?!

It's not unpopular in the west. Just unpopular on ANN.

Definitely a terrible omission in this list though.

I suspect that it being on HIDIVE only may have hurt it a bit. And while I love those two as a duo, I'm not sure I see anything romantic in that pairing.

I haven't noticed any sort of pattern where anime on HIDIVE are regularly shirked on ANN, so I'm not sure why that would be.

And it's odd that you can see pretty much any scene in episode 12 through a purely platonic lens, though this one in particular is baffling: https://imgur.com/a/QuryXDG

And even at the end, with Momo dressed for a date whereas Shamiko wants to duel so that she can make Momo her vassal. I guess if someone is blind they could miss it.
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Key
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:32 pm Reply with quote
Megiddo wrote:
And it's odd that you can see pretty much any scene in episode 12 through a purely platonic lens, though this one in particular is baffling: https://imgur.com/a/QuryXDG

And even at the end, with Momo dressed for a date whereas Shamiko wants to duel so that she can make Momo her vassal. I guess if someone is blind they could miss it.

It all comes down to where the dividing line is between close friendship (i.e. platonic love) and wannabe-lovers (i.e. romantic love). I'm not above shipping lesbian couples, but this case feels to me like it hasn't (yet) crossed that line, even with the last episode figured in. I might concede that Momo might be more inclined in that direction than Shamiko, but I also think that the series makes it pretty clear throughout that Momo is looking for a friend rather than a lover. Of course, I am taking a totally straight persepective on this, so maybe there are cues there that I'm missing.
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squirrelmecha-2.0



Joined: 01 Jul 2018
Posts: 28
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:05 pm Reply with quote
I when saw the promotional art of those two. I bet romance between those two. Although I mistaken Lio Fotia for a girl at the time. Before reading the pilot synapsis.
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Jin_Uzuki



Joined: 13 Nov 2018
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:44 pm Reply with quote
jellybeanbandit wrote:
Jin_Uzuki wrote:
Not that Yuri on Ice actually pussyfooted anyway, the anime is quite explicit and vocal in ways not even straight couples are (Seriously, how many couple in anime even hold hands? . It just shows the massive double standards when it comes to accepting this as "canon", imagine if Yuuri was a girl and someone claimed the characters were straight.


A lot? Like, I know it's a meme to say hand holding in anime is lewd, but some people act like it's some rare thing in anime. Same with kissing. Or hugging. Or saying "I love you".
Or any kind of direct expression of love or romance. Yuri on Ice was purposely vague and coy because of behind the scenes disagreements and meddling. Most anime isn't like that and I have no idea why people keep trying to say Yuri on Ice "did the norm" or even "did more than most other shows"


https://i.imgur.com/u2qdHdz.jpg

What part of this looks vague to you? It's honestly crazy to me anyone can look at this and think "Yes, these characters are not clearly homosexual and do not have feelings for each other." And this without posting some parts of the scripts, really. Or pointing out the story straight up falls apart if Victor and Yuuri aren't romantically interested in each other. Or really, the fact that the author had to be censored by the execs.

Quote:






Naruto lol. A series were he pretty much ignored Hinata for what, 800 chapters and then they got together out of nowhere in the ending and they had to make a movie out of it to explain how it happened? Jump's shounen idea of romance is pretty much "He ignores her for the entire manga runs, time skip, babies".

Quote:

The only time it's vague is if it's intentionally not being committing to any one pairing, like in a harem where the whole premise is any girl could realistically hook up with the MC, even though there's usually the very obvious canon love interest they'll hook up with in the end anyway. And that's not even counting the direct sexual contact they'll be getting into along the way.

Speaking of sexual contact, Yuri on Ice has tons of that but for some reason it doesn't count because "it's fujoshi pandering".
Quote:
And I don't know why people try to say straight pairings require less proof. People argue over straight shippings all the heckin time.

They don't argue the characters are straight. It's not something that needs to be proven, all two characters need to do to be considered a "possible pairing" is talk. If a girl talks to the main character she's automatically into him and vice versa (I could even like, give you some actual examples)
Of course that's because heterosexuality is the norm, so it makes sense most characters would be straight, I don't dispute that (But it's also irrelevant because those are cartoon characters that can be anything the author wants lol see Utena were most of the cast is bi) When it's two guys the romantic subtext basically all becomes just fanservice or bait in the eyes of people and the shippers are "delusional".

For example, If Waver was a girl no one would doubt his interest and obsession with Iskandar is romantic. The dude goes around clutching Iskandar's old relic and whispering "I want to see you again..." with teary eyes. But since Waver is a guy even his interest is up to debate and the pairing becomes "fujoshi delusions". I bet these are the same people who have no problem accepting Gray's devotion for Waver is not just mentor worship but full blow love (Yes, I know Gray has a crush on Waver, I can read the clues), despite him being like 10 years older than her and also her father figure.


Last edited by Jin_Uzuki on Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jin_Uzuki



Joined: 13 Nov 2018
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:52 pm Reply with quote
Nobooks wrote:
Jin_Uzuki wrote:
Nobooks wrote:
I'm really surprised that Enta wasn't mentioned at all given the mention of Reo and Mabu. I mean, unlike them he's one of the main characters and is gay.

I would argue Reo and Mabu are main characters too, they are super central to the narrative. Also Enta's arc was... not very good and kinda went nowhere, as well it not being particularly original (Yet another gay side character in love with the main protagonist?).


Reo and Mabu are important, but they're not main characters. It shows in their screentime and how sparsely covered they are up until the end.

>Yet another gay side character in love with the main protagonist
No, there's a pretty big difference when it's one of the three marketed main characters which Enta is. If you're going to criticize Enta's narrative, Reomabu isn't anything special on the surface level either: gay villain suffering, which is another trope.

I like both, but I think it's the way they're executed and their focus in the series that makes them interesting. You can boil anything down to a trope.

But I'll be honest, I liked Enta a lot more than Reomabu for showing the complicated feelings of in love and young and dealing with those emotions. The jealousy. The desire and love that are both part of it. He's a classic Ikuhara Anthy/Ringo (flawed character who does frustrating things due to their circumstances, but ultimately has a sympathetic narrative hinged around them) who's allowed to be open about being gay, which is something I desperately wanted in an Ikuhara work.

My issue with Enta is that his crush doesn't go anywhere, he doesn't get over it, he doesn't confess and gets rejected, it just... nothing happens? It's not even that important in the end. Juri gets over Shiori or at least she stops letting her love for the other poison her heart (And eventually even wins Shiori over, if we go by the official art), her last duel is one of the best in the anime, Ringo is essential to Penguindrum's narrative and Anthy is the most important character in Utena, even more than Utena herself. I'm thinking that even Lulu from Yurikuma was a better take on that archetype.
Like I'm not even sure what Enta's crush on the main character actually added, unlike Toi and Kazuki's issues.

I'm reading like 3 manga right now that have a character similar to him and they are all main characters too (And one of them was even an anime before Sarazanmai) and I feel like they actually did it better.
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Sabruness



Joined: 23 Oct 2019
Posts: 90
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:53 pm Reply with quote
Shiawase_Rina wrote:
I hope the anime adaption of Bakarina this year doesn't downplay how bi the "rival" girls + Maria are. Harems are the most fun if the dense protagonist attracts boys and girls alike~

Oh yes, i totally agree. If it tries to downplay it, it'll just be ruining the story because part of it is that the heroine and other "rival" girls are actually bisexual (or at the very very least Bakarinasexual).

Megiddo wrote:


Definitely a terrible omission in this list though.


I totally agree. For a caring kuudere (or close enough) and a earnest yet completely shambolic dork, the romantic feelings are really obvious, especially in episode 12. Sure, they dont explicitly say romantic words to each other but that whole 'confession' is effectively a proposal.
I'm surprised Symphogear is also ignored (and some have denied it as yuri-bait). It's just like Nanoha. Literally the only thing missing is explicit romantic words in the series itself or word-of-god that most of the main cast are lesbians.
Wasnt there similar denial about NanoFate until the creator themself, and one of the VAs, actually came out and said on record that Nanoha and Fate were a lesbian couple. Arguably, Hayate is also gay through all the subtext.
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dragon695



Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Posts: 1377
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:36 pm Reply with quote
Zandy Brown wrote:
Promare!? Waver!? Look, I LOVE me some BL. I can ship a couple with nothing more than a shared glance, and that’s all those two examples are......shipping. Yeah widdle Waver idolized Iskander, and maybe had a man-crush, but that boy was too stuck in his own head to have a relationship with a man or woman.

It’s been years since I was last on here, but I cannot let this nonsense go. I can’t believe Key did not pipe up, since I know he is familiar with the VNs. Look, the anime never really goes there, but in the original source material it is explicit that Masters sleep with their Servants to provide mana for battle. (There are jokes about what this means in UBW, but I digress into spoiler territory). No amount of retcon will change that underlying fact, which Urobuchi was well aware of when he wrote Zero. You can see how Waver changes as the series progresses, he becomes quite attached, and not, apparently, because he wants to win.

But even if that doesn’t convince you, then compare the relationship with other master/servant relationships in the series. Which one does it resemble? Like Rin’s Father with Gil or like Shirou with Saber in FS/N? As others mentioned, ask yourself how it would look if Waver were a girl? Again, I don’t think Urobuchi did any of it by accident. He was playing it straight outta a bara novel (which is fiction written by gay men for gay men in Japan). And since he is neck deep in the Ecchi/Hentai VN industry, it isn’t possible he is just naive. From all of his past work, that is how he rolls. He enjoys weaving vast tapestry stories with intricate plots and a myriad characters who are both typical and atypical. It just didn’t come across as the usual BL bait to me.

To be honest, there was a lot of sexuality which was toned down from the novels. Someone already mentioned Waver ejaculating when he summons Alexander, but there is more: IIRC, ryuunosuke was implied to be a very prolific pedophile of both young boys and girls in the novels, that is he didn’t just murder them, he raped and tortured them, too. Stuff Kiritsugu did with his older lover that got left out, etc. There was a lot of atypical sexuality, to say the least.
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Key
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:20 pm Reply with quote
dragon695 wrote:
It’s been years since I was last on here, but I cannot let this nonsense go. I can’t believe Key did not pipe up, since I know he is familiar with the VNs.

Um, no I'm not, actually. Never done a VN that hasn't been officially translated, and the Fate stuff has always been intimidating enough in length for me to want to change that.
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