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INTEREST: Broadcasting Ethics Group Plans to Watch Interspecies Reviewers


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Greboruri



Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 298
Location: Canberra, ACT, Australia
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:18 am Reply with quote
Kougeru wrote:
While on the surface, women being allowed to CHOOSE to work in the sex industry sounds like a good idea, in reality it's more complex than that. There's been studies over many years that suggest that legalizing prostitution could lead to an increase in human sex trafficking. It may also make it easier to force victims into the industry since they are often groomed and likely wouldn't say anything to those that can help them. They would "Consent" to it due to grooming. This makes it much harder to save them.


Well New Zealand would completely disagree. Also the implementation of the Nordic Model has made it worse for sex workers in those countries. Also your infantilising of women is utterly condescending. Kougeru, ditch the abolitionist talking points and go talk to some sex workers on social media about the reality of their job.

Kirki wrote:
Can't we at least all agree that prostitution in the real world is an extremely dark place and not all fun and laughs? Yes, sex is fun and our society should be less uptight about it, but the horrible truth of our world is that there are more people suffering by working in this industry than having fun in it.

Putting aside if that's actually true or not (and there really is no evidence to say it is true), you could make the same argument about a lot of industries, where people do actually suffer and die as a result of their job. Just because sex is involved, it doesn't it make the job worse or more of a concern than other industries.
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Kirki



Joined: 11 Jun 2019
Posts: 92
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:59 am Reply with quote
Greboruri wrote:
Kougeru wrote:
While on the surface, women being allowed to CHOOSE to work in the sex industry sounds like a good idea, in reality it's more complex than that. There's been studies over many years that suggest that legalizing prostitution could lead to an increase in human sex trafficking. It may also make it easier to force victims into the industry since they are often groomed and likely wouldn't say anything to those that can help them. They would "Consent" to it due to grooming. This makes it much harder to save them.


Well New Zealand would completely disagree. Also the implementation of the Nordic Model has made it worse for sex workers in those countries. Also your infantilising of women is utterly condescending. Kougeru, ditch the abolitionist talking points and go talk to some sex workers on social media about the reality of their job.

Kirki wrote:
Can't we at least all agree that prostitution in the real world is an extremely dark place and not all fun and laughs? Yes, sex is fun and our society should be less uptight about it, but the horrible truth of our world is that there are more people suffering by working in this industry than having fun in it.

Putting aside if that's actually true or not (and there really is no evidence to say it is true), you could make the same argument about a lot of industries, where people do actually suffer and die as a result of their job. Just because sex is involved, it doesn't it make the job worse or more of a concern than other industries.


What do you mean, no evidence? You can't have missed the prostitutes working on the street, endangering themselves, catching diseases, dying from drugs, abused by their pimps. Those people aren't isolated minorities.

Honestly, if there was a show that featured someone dying from overwork in an industry and tried to present it positively, it would be just as outrageous. A lot of industries use their employees as objects, but sex is a much more complicated act than filling in some papers. It carries various cultural baggage and has a higher percentage of severe health risks. You can't compare it to one of the mill companies running out there.

And the shows we are watching can never be isolated from reality. Yes it is a fantasy world but it's man made and it can never be cut off of how we view some certain aspects of life. That's why they are created for.
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Cain Highwind



Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 268
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:12 am Reply with quote
mangamuscle wrote:
Cain Highwind wrote:
That’s not really much of a counterpoint. You’re just being spiteful because all you got from my post was “RAWR SEX ANIME BAD!”


Nope, the only take from your post is "I don't like this anime as it is, but if it were (insert personal tastes) then it would be great". It is fine if you do not like it, but demeaning an anime because it does not suit your personal tastes IS spiteful.


Good writing isn’t a fetish. Rolling Eyes
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strawberry-kun



Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 255
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 8:31 am Reply with quote
I wouldn’t be watching the show if it had guys on guys. There’s obviously nothing wrong with that, but I don’t particularly want to watch softcore gay porn. That’s not my thing. I’d imagine they’d be turning off a decent portion of the demographic that they are aiming for too. I don’t think it’d make much sense from a business perspective, but I could be wrong.
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jl07045



Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 1509
Location: Riga, Latvia
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:40 am Reply with quote
Kirki wrote:
And the shows we are watching can never be isolated from reality. Yes it is a fantasy world but it's man made and it can never be cut off of how we view some certain aspects of life. That's why they are created for.

Okay, so how does that relate specifically to this case of fantasy town where all prostitutes seem to be willing and happy to provide their services?
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Blanchimont



Joined: 25 Feb 2012
Posts: 2098
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:06 pm Reply with quote
Cain Highwind wrote:
Good writing isn’t a fetish. Rolling Eyes

^That is an opinion, that IR isn't good writing. And an opinion is subjective. It is yours and you are entitled to it. But don't expect everyone to agree to it. I don't.

Personally I consider the show well directed eclipsing even its source, which in itself is very a solid story for a comedy fanservice manga. If nothing else, I consider the show a contender for one of the better anime adaptations to come out over the last few years...
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Cain Highwind



Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 268
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:59 pm Reply with quote
Blanchimont wrote:
Cain Highwind wrote:
Good writing isn’t a fetish. Rolling Eyes

^That is an opinion, that IR isn't good writing. And an opinion is subjective. It is yours and you are entitled to it. But don't expect everyone to agree to it. I don't.

Personally I consider the show well directed eclipsing even its source, which in itself is very a solid story for a comedy fanservice manga. If nothing else, I consider the show a contender for one of the better anime adaptations to come out over the last few years...


That’s all well and good but I think pointing out that the writing doesn’t really do anything outside a heterosexual norm when the potential is there doesn’t equate to wanting your particular fetish in. It’s like there’s this weird double standard going on where people are both defending this show as deep but at the same time deflecting criticism because it’s just a fanservice for straight men show.

In my previous post I tried to point out that this is like a show where all the heroes are male and that there are no female heroes. Pointing out “Where are the female heroes” doesn’t equate to adding another fetish.
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mangamuscle



Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 2489
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:34 pm Reply with quote
Cain Highwind wrote:
In my previous post I tried to point out that this is like a show where all the heroes are male and that there are no female heroes. Pointing out “Where are the female heroes” doesn’t equate to adding another fetish.


This, in essence, is a problem, NOT a solution. I am all for having series with all kind of casts, anime is a business and if there is a market demographic then it should be serviced (as long as it is profitable).

But hoping that by public pressure an author will change his/her vision of a manga or anime to include a more diverse cast is a no no. In example. I am all for having Marvel have latino superheroes, but I mean NEW superheroes, not turning already existing characters into latinos.

So having a new anime that is basically porno Yuri on Ice? Good luck, hope it becomes marketable. Turning IR into gay porn because it fits better your worldview? Nope, if you don't like it don't see it. Go and down vote it at MAL if that makes you feel better.

Last but no least, Crim has identified as a male from the start and has made pretty clear he does not get bullied into accepting whatever others want and in the latest episode even went out of his way to a Brothel of his liking, let him be himself!
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nargun



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 799
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 5:43 pm Reply with quote
strawberry-kun wrote:
I wouldn’t be watching the show if it had guys on guys.


Whether you want that or not, the effect of your use of market power here is to diminish representation of gay people from all media. This presents somewhat of a social problem, no?

[it's worth reading about the history of black representation in US cinema. Like, you really need to do that to understand the true consequences of what you're doing.]

I mean, nobody says you have to watch shows that you fundamentally aren't interested in. But media is shared, communual: collectively/in-total it has to reflect the interests of the whole community, and that collective has to be actually enacted by individual and specific titles.

Someone has to do it; why should your shows be excluded from representing gay people? I mean, "because I don't want to see it", but think beyond yourself.

I mean, all this is based on your being merely indifferent to gay, five minutes of gay content being five minutes of narrative dead space to you. If your reaction is more negative than "don't care"... then that's unavoidable, it's a medical issue -- mental health -- and because morality is about choices and the unavoidable isn't a choice then, y'know, no blame. If it's unavoidable, if you've taken the reasonable steps, the choices, you can to reduce the impact your problems cause for others.
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strawberry-kun



Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 255
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:35 pm Reply with quote
I’m actually all for the advocacy for more LGBT representation. I am a yuri and otokonoko fan myself. I just think it’s kind of stupid in this particular case. It’s like asking why aren’t there naked dudes in Playboy. Or where is the LGBT content in To Love-Ru? Etc. These shows are specifically marketed towards horny, straight men. It’s just a bad hill to die on. These shows know what they are and don’t pretend to be anything else.
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dragon695



Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Posts: 1375
Location: Clemson, SC
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:34 pm Reply with quote
mangamuscle wrote:
So having a new anime that is basically porno Yuri on Ice? Good luck, hope it becomes marketable. Turning IR into gay porn because it fits better your worldview? Nope, if you don't like it don't see it. Go and down vote it at MAL if that makes you feel better.

Last but no least, Crim has identified as a male from the start and has made pretty clear he does not get bullied into accepting whatever others want and in the latest episode even went out of his way to a Brothel of his liking, let him be himself!


Considering how much otokonoko (crossdressing feminine boys) doujinshi sells on “male otaku” day of comiket, I don’t think it is as cut & dry as you think. There is probably a not insignificant audience of male otaku who want to see Crim get a “good dicking” from both ends, just saying. Also, he’s a futa, which sells even more. Pointing out the author is not taking an obvious fetish to the logical conclusion is valid criticism. It could be played straight like the egg laying brothel. I don’t think the author should do anything they don’t want to, though. I just think it would be more interesting if they pushed the lines. Like I’m digusted by scat, guro, and vote, but it would be interesting if those came up too. I don’t think any of that turns IR into a specific genre, tbh. If the author doesn’t want to, I’ll be disappointed, but that’s ok, too. I think comedy can be improved by poking in places we aren’t comfortable with.
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Blanchimont



Joined: 25 Feb 2012
Posts: 2098
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:44 am Reply with quote
nargun wrote:
Whether you want that or not, the effect of your use of market power here is to diminish representation of gay people from all media. This presents somewhat of a social problem, no?

That is only a social problem if no-one is making content for a niche that wants to see gay interactions. If enough people want to see, someone will make that content. And there sure is a lot of BL material out there, if one bothers to search.

Likewise, if there is enough people who enjoy media that contains straight, yuri, incest, or other kinks, but who prefer not to watch any content that includes any more than at most a minuscule amount of gay interactions, someone will cater to those people and make it. I'm one of those people. As such, Interspecies Reviewers fits squarely into my media preferences. Put otherwise, if IR did have any substantial BL sections, it wouldn't be on my watch-list.

There is no need for a show to be the be-all end-all for all audiences lest it suddenly finds itself catering to no-one. To quote an old pro-verb; "Jack of all trades, master of none"...
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Hellsoldier



Joined: 21 Jun 2013
Posts: 495
Location: Porto,Portugal,Europe,Earth,Sol
PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:20 am Reply with quote
Kougeru wrote:
While on the surface, women being allowed to CHOOSE to work in the sex industry sounds like a good idea, in reality it's more complex than that. There's been studies over many years that suggest that legalizing prostitution could lead to an increase in human sex trafficking. It may also make it easier to force victims into the industry since they are often groomed and likely wouldn't say anything to those that can help them. They would "Consent" to it due to grooming. This makes it much harder to save them.

There are many articles on this, this is just one https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2016/10/17/why-legalizing-prostitution-may-not-work/#7c9eccce6678
Quote:
One paper, for example, looked at the legalization of brothels in the Netherlands in 2000. The researchers found that “screening of brothel owners and the monitoring of the compliance of licensing conditions do not create levels of transparency that enable sex trafficking to be exposed.” They therefore concluded that “fighting sex trafficking using the criminal justice system may even be harder in the legalized prostitution sector.”



Anyway, I'm not saying women working in the sex industry by choice is BAD, just that it's a LOT more complex than saying it's GOOD. We need more research before we can really say either way. But in my opinion, anything that would incentive MORE human trafficking/sexual slavery, is not worth it.


Sorry, but No! Whilst the Dutch model is a failure, the New Zealand model is praised by international organizations, defended by Amnesty International and more importantly the sex workers themselves. And they're the ones who should boss around their own lives.

Also, if the show airs after midnight, it should be left alone.
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Cain Highwind



Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 268
PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 3:55 pm Reply with quote
mangamuscle wrote:
Cain Highwind wrote:
In my previous post I tried to point out that this is like a show where all the heroes are male and that there are no female heroes. Pointing out “Where are the female heroes” doesn’t equate to adding another fetish.


This, in essence, is a problem, NOT a solution. I am all for having series with all kind of casts, anime is a business and if there is a market demographic then it should be serviced (as long as it is profitable).

But hoping that by public pressure an author will change his/her vision of a manga or anime to include a more diverse cast is a no no. In example. I am all for having Marvel have latino superheroes, but I mean NEW superheroes, not turning already existing characters into latinos.

So having a new anime that is basically porno Yuri on Ice? Good luck, hope it becomes marketable. Turning IR into gay porn because it fits better your worldview? Nope, if you don't like it don't see it. Go and down vote it at MAL if that makes you feel better.

Last but no least, Crim has identified as a male from the start and has made pretty clear he does not get bullied into accepting whatever others want and in the latest episode even went out of his way to a Brothel of his liking, let him be himself!


I’m not looking for some sort of diversity for diversity’s sake. ALL I’m saying is the show’s premise COULD explore different themes and angles behind sex work but it’s too busy being the “very manly men having very manly male on female sex” show. At least from my passing glance of the series. Stuff like the gender swap episode they don’t let them leave because “there’s a problem with men being ‘tricked’.” which is actually kinda transphobic or how the men are freaked out because Crim is interested in the dual genitals of the hyena woman. I’m not saying they have to add a bunch of stuff just make other non heterosexual stuff not seem so horridly abnormal.
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Jen Bigby



Joined: 20 May 2013
Posts: 105
PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:03 pm Reply with quote
Sailor Sedna wrote:
Damn, even Japan is cracking down on this? You could probably say Japanese broadcast I agree, the whole "objectifying" complaint makes no sense considering they've probably never seen any ecchi nor hentai that got released in the whole of the 80's/90's. If it's that bad in their eyes, then they should have released it as a hentai OVA or something..


The BPO has zero power or authority over anything. They're a glorified PTA group who have complained about everything from Pokemon to School Days. They're just a group who voices their concerns about shows, like those parental guidance groups in the west like Common Sense Media.
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