Forum - View topic
INTEREST: In-Between Animators Share Stories of Low Wages, Poor Conditions With 'Dōgaman Hell' Hasht


Goto page 1, 2  Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Greed1914
It's Over 9000!It's Over 9000!


Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 3539
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:10 pm Reply with quote
It's very sad to see people's desire to work in the industry used against them. Wanting to work in animation would be about the only thing to make working for such low wages even seem worthwhile, especially when it frequently doesn't allow enough time for someone to even have a second job to help pay bills. And, of course, the employers don't care if they have staff turnover because they know that some eager person will fill the spot, even if it isn't for very long.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AJ (LordNikon)



Joined: 14 Apr 2009
Posts: 377
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:10 pm Reply with quote
It is minimum pay entry level job! What do you want!? Get better, put in your time, move up the ladder like any other career field! It reminds me of idiot down street who worked at Lotteria or Lawson for fifteen years but never moves up in shift manager!

Stop whining, master your craft, move up the food chain like every body else!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
boldulysses



Joined: 21 Apr 2020
Posts: 12
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:34 pm Reply with quote
AJ (LordNikon) wrote:
It is minimum pay entry level job! What do you want!? Get better, put in your time, move up the ladder like any other career field! It reminds me of idiot down street who worked at Lotteria or Lawson for fifteen years but never moves up in shift manager!

Stop whining, master your craft, move up the food chain like every body else!


I agree with you in principle, but entry-level jobs by definition don't require any experience and/or education in order to start. Animation requires training, practice and a modicum of talent, hence the reason they really should be paid more than a burger-flipper or grocery store cashier.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JMulli



Joined: 08 Jun 2019
Posts: 13
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:38 pm Reply with quote
AJ (LordNikon) wrote:
It is minimum pay entry level job! What do you want!? Get better, put in your time, move up the ladder like any other career field! It reminds me of idiot down street who worked at Lotteria or Lawson for fifteen years but never moves up in shift manager!

Stop whining, master your craft, move up the food chain like every body else!


You're... kidding right? If you're not, then you seriously need to evaluate what you think is acceptable labor. In a multi-billion dollar industry, you're telling me that an incredibly essential role to animation that works unreal hours (often working more than an entire day at a time and not ever being able to go home) should make $60-$150 a MONTH? Do you think an animator can just go ahead and say "I wanna be a key animator now" without having to be stuck in a position until the company chooses to promote them? Do you think most key animators even make a decent enough amount to live well at all?

You're using the excuse that these people are at "the bottom of the food chain" to defend actual human cruelty. Shame on you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
xxmsxx



Joined: 06 Sep 2017
Posts: 23
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:02 pm Reply with quote
AJ (LordNikon) wrote:
It is minimum pay entry level job! What do you want!? Get better, put in your time, move up the ladder like any other career field! It reminds me of idiot down street who worked at Lotteria or Lawson for fifteen years but never moves up in shift manager!

Stop whining, master your craft, move up the food chain like every body else!


This comment demonstrates the pervasive lack of understanding about the Japanese anime industry. I could not have found a better comment to illustrate someone that lacks more basic understanding in 2020.


Last edited by xxmsxx on Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:04 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
omegafinal



Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 71
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:03 pm Reply with quote
AJ (LordNikon) wrote:
It is minimum pay entry level job! What do you want!? Get better, put in your time, move up the ladder like any other career field! It reminds me of idiot down street who worked at Lotteria or Lawson for fifteen years but never moves up in shift manager!

Stop whining, master your craft, move up the food chain like every body else!

I got a feeling this has to be a joke comment based on those "pull yourself by your bootstraps" kind of mentality. Not to mention, last I read, fast food workers there earn more than animators. Given the skills needed for animation, shouldn't that be the other way around?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Covnam



Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 1763
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:32 pm Reply with quote
Does Japan not have a minimum wage set by the government? The US might be low, but it's still higher than this Sad
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kougeru



Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 5127
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:18 pm Reply with quote
Minimum wage should be a livable wage no matter what country it is. But animators shouldn't be "minimum" to begin with. It's literally not ANIME without them. Basically everyone else can work in another field but this field is all about the animators.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address My Anime My Manga
Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 3600
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:41 pm Reply with quote
The production companies keep posting record profits, yet the people actually making the series that generate them see none of it. Utterly disgusting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jeff Bauersfeld



Joined: 07 Dec 2015
Posts: 54
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:50 pm Reply with quote
Covnam wrote:
Does Japan not have a minimum wage set by the government? The US might be low, but it's still higher than this Sad


If Japan is like America in this respect, then the in-betweeners here would just be considered freelancers who aren't covered by minimum wage rules. An Uber driver for instance is not guaranteed a minimum wage, but is simply paid whatever per ride they make.

In any civilized country, if you can work 8-10 hours a day and not make the bare minimum for necessities (ie not having to choose between rent and food), theres something wrong.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DavetheUsher



Joined: 19 May 2014
Posts: 397
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:15 pm Reply with quote
Jeff Bauersfeld wrote:
If Japan is like America in this respect, then the in-betweeners here would just be considered freelancers who aren't covered by minimum wage rules. An Uber driver for instance is not guaranteed a minimum wage, but is simply paid whatever per ride they make.


Correct. If an animator being paid per drawing or per sheet they are not bound to minimum wage laws as that is freelance work and all pricing is set up on a per-contract basis. What throws a lot of people off is when someone quotes their monthly income in situations like this and people automatically assume it's from an hourly wage when it can very well not be the case at all.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sailor Sedna



Joined: 08 Jan 2015
Posts: 922
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:18 pm Reply with quote
AJ (LordNikon) wrote:
It is minimum pay entry level job! What do you want!? Get better, put in your time, move up the ladder like any other career field! It reminds me of idiot down street who worked at Lotteria or Lawson for fifteen years but never moves up in shift manager!

Stop whining, master your craft, move up the food chain like every body else!


People like you are not helping.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
reanimator



Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 1324
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:29 pm Reply with quote
Upon reading comments, it's easier to get outraged over depressingly low wage of animation labor than thinking and discussing about various factors that put down animators in such position. And I don't think simple pay raise alone will alleviate the underlying chronic problems in animation industry and its business practice.

Here are the some things that could be discussed because labor and business are not mutually exclusive:

1. Status of Inbetween animator as whole: Unskilled laborer or Skilled craftsman?

2. Scale and Distribution of Production budget: Why can't JP productions get more money despite widely acknowledged quality?

3. Funding: How much goes to production budget?

3. Quality of finished product versus Manpower/Man-hour associated with said product

4. Pareto Principle: There will be always someone who will work extra hard to get better status and pay. (think Naruto becoming Hokage)

5. Ineffective Japanese labor laws: industry's dependency on freelance labor and labor abuse by employers

6. Too many animators in one production?: Rise of production staff count from 1960's to current.

7. Creative Freedom vs Submission: Are animators willing to sacrifice their artistic integrity for better pay?

8. Demand for animators in Japanese society and economy as whole: Are animators highly regarded in Japan? How does average Japanese view animators?

9. Foreign subcontractors in Asian countries: Deep fear of complete outsourcing among JP animators

10 .Economy: Inflation in Japan vs labor cost

11. Technology: Is technology making inbetweening and cleanup obsolete? Where should inbetweening should be headed?

12. More Cleanup crew: Stopgap measure for labor shortage and rise of 2nd key Animators and Chief AD.

13. Training and recruitment: Mad Rush on training with looming retirement of veteran animators (many top animators are in 50's now and pushing 60's)

14. Perfectionism: Artists of all disciplines go through it, but is Japanese case unhealthy?

I could go on forever.....


Last edited by reanimator on Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:38 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Psycho 101
Moderator


Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 15091
Location: Inn of the Last Home
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:30 pm Reply with quote
AJ (LordNikon) wrote:
It is minimum pay entry level job! What do you want!? Get better, put in your time, move up the ladder like any other career field! It reminds me of idiot down street who worked at Lotteria or Lawson for fifteen years but never moves up in shift manager!

Stop whining, master your craft, move up the food chain like every body else!


Your post comes off as very ignorant and ill-informed of working conditions at best, and downright trollish at worst. I suggest unless you're going to add anything constructive you forgo any further ignorant comments like that moving forward.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
FlowerAiko



Joined: 05 Apr 2017
Posts: 181
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:21 pm Reply with quote
reanimator wrote:
Upon reading comments, it's easier to get outraged over depressingly low wage of animation labor than thinking and discussing about various factors that put down animators in such position. And I don't think simple pay raise alone will alleviate the underlying chronic problems in animation industry and its business practice.


To answer some of your questions, being an animator in any capacity is skilled labor. Most people can't even draw consistently on model, let alone animate something. In-betweeing is unappealing because rather than choosing the movement yourself you're making it smooth, but that's why it's entry level. Plus, unskilled or not and entry level or not, people deserve livable wages.

The low wage for animators is of course an industry problem and isn't isolated to studios--many have talked about how much revenue middlemen take before it even reaches the studio. However, it being a structural problem doesn't mean it's hopeless, even if it's an uphill battle. I hope these animators will at least unionize.

Also, don't get me STARTED on outsourcing... outsourcing is done majority of the time to cut costs, which means that the outsourced labor is being paid LESS than in-studio labor. Plus, these outsourced animators often times don't even get their NAME in the credits despite animating the damn thing. Look at the credits of American cartoons and you'll MAYBE see the name of an outsourced studio under "animation production" or something, and you'll rarely see individual names. At least anime consistently credits their animators. There is one cartoon I watched that will remain nameless that outsourced about 50% if its animation and ONLY credited the American labor that worked on it. Disgusted me enough to stop supporting the show...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group