Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Sword Art Online: Alicization War of Underworld Part 2
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Yuvelir
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Best subdued bit of humour in the series so far: Alice nonchalantly connecting to a printer via wi-fi.
Also, my biggest question in this episode would be this: why did she ship herself naked? She must be pretty heavy herself so the weight of clothes wouldn't really increase the shipping costs. As for the dinner, didn't it sound like they forgot some crucial plot points? Like Kirito's father scolding him for leaving without notice for some grand mission. Like, he was stabbed, in a coma and put into cyberspace for some mysterious treatment, he literally had no choice, he was forced into that "mission". Then Kirito changes his life goals to what reads like "I want to live with Alice" which bends back to why people think he isn't all that loyal to Asuna (I know, it goes way further than that, no need to tell me). And lastly Alice speaks about her choice to become a knight and her father's forgiveness... like what? As far as his father is aware, she died when she was 10 or so, he had no choices to begrudge. And becoming a knight wasn't a choice like at all, she was literally brainwashed and forced to become one, as far as she's aware she has been a knight her entire existence. And then the last major scene... oh boy what a riot. I fully expected the world to be modernized after Asuna's "what could possibly go wrong"-like line, ubermensch Kirito's knowledge of the real world applied to his 200-year reign makes it plausible. What I didn't expect was a full-on sci-fi settings with space pilots fighting a space monster. With the pilots being reincarnations of those two. I guess everyone must reincarnate in this world, everyone except Eugeo of course. And then they defeat the impossible monster in a sword fight IN SPACE. And of course those two remember them because fluctlight cubes, or fluctlights partially living inside the fluctlights of others. But Eugeo must remain dead. Of course the question remained of how this high-security satellite-connected facility in the hands of others could be accessed over TCP/IP protocol, but as it turns out it was Kayaba's force ghost mecha literally wiring some undersea fiber-optic cable, HAH. It was all so gloriously absurd. This really works well as a comedy, doesn't it? Now in a more serious tone, if possible I'd like to ask fans and LN readers about a couple things. The first is just trivia about Kirito's swords in Aincrad and Underworld. IIRC his blue sword in Aincrad was the Crystal Sword, made by Lizbeth from something dropped by a frost dragon in order to use his dual-wielding skill. That the Crystal Sword made from a dragon is a direct paralel to the Blue Rose Sword with freezing powers used to kill a dragon, is pretty obvious. That leaves us with Elucidator and... the Night Sky Sword was it? The former IIRC was a drop from some floor boss, but I don't know any further details. Would it relate to the Gigas Cedar-made sword in any way other than its blackness? Size and hardness seemed to be that sword's defining features, but Elucidator didn't seem to be anything other than "a strong black sword". Was the boss that dropped it a tree monster or something? The other is simpler: what does it make Alice so special, the culmination of the fluctlight AI research? If it's about going against directives and forging a free will, Eugeo already went exactly through that thanks to Kirito's persuasion (just like Alice), whereas several people in the Dark Territory unlocked the same will without anyone to urge them to row row fight the power - what does make Alice more special than Eugeo, the orc lord or the pugilist boss? |
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Zhou-BR
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I'm done with SAO, and I wish I hadn't given season 2 a chance, because it was enjoyable enough to fool me into thinking Kawahara had become a better writer and wouldn't repeat the missteps from the Aincrad and Alfheim arcs. Alicization had a very promising beginning, but as it went on, everything I hated about the first season came back with a vengeance, especially the harem-building, sexual violence and Kirito pulling off feats he shouldn't be able to simply because he's the main character and the most perfect man in the world.
This franchise is still a big hit and I'm sure the next arc will be animated after they're done with the just-announced "Aincrad but Longer, Slower and Apparently More Focused on Asuna" series, but I don't feel the need to see Kirito risk his life in yet another deadly VRMMORPG while adding yet another strong girl to his harem even though he's supposedly in a serious relationship. |
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Hiroki not Takuya
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To the last bit, fair point. I had to go back myself to verify that my point was that since SAO had numerous times made the point that the virtual world was as real as the real world that it wasn't a jump to expect that SAO would eventually make the case that they were the same and/or connected (whatever that would mean). My guess is like an "alternate universe". However, if Alice's question to the reporter wasn't supposed to be purely rhetorical then I think I would be justified in calling Reki a bad writer because it would mean he plagiarized The Matrix. But just last Ep we had Alice remotely sensing that Kirito had returned to the real world when that should have been impossible and SAOA had several times mentioned that Kirito's soul had sensed the arrival of his Harem Members in UW. This parallelism I find can't be just due to some "data connection" between Fluctlights in UW and again is an instance of something happening IRL the same way as UW. And what happened to Vassago's body IRL (evaporate)? Seems to make the case that "if you die in the virtual world, you die in the real world and disappear like the data in UW". Or maybe he really did get dragged to hell? To the top, item#5 in the link, I was keying on "Information Dumps" which there are lots of, at least one in nearly each Ep. There are also plenty of times in SAOA that there are scenes captioned with "three years ago" or "several hours ago in Minata Ward" so they qualify as backstory. However, if the LN don't have it written that way, then that is the A1 writers. To illustrate how info dumps can be avoided while still conveying the story information (which seems is something Reki can't do), I'll mention a famously good writer H.G. Wells and a structurally similar story "The Time Machine" told entirely in first person. He only describes things enough for the reader to make a mental image of them and only of things that are germane to the main story. He doesn't take whole pages to describe the Machine and how it works, detail how the subterranean machines or Morlock society runs, have the reader go through convoluted ruminations on the moral implications of class stratification (though that is a main factor in the story) or what he personally thinks about that. The story wisely isn't even focused on the un-named "time traveler" doing the narration but on Weena and his ruminations are on her and how Humanity had been impacted by technology realizing Mankind's greatest wishes for peace and prosperity. If you haven't read it, I'd recommend it. Item#4- yes SAOA really doesn't do that blatantly, but there have been plenty of times recently in the middle of the story where it is pointed out visually or with a little dialog that everyone loves Kirito as if that is a significant thing we as viewers need to pay attention to. That could be A1 catering to Key's "fanboys" but even Asuna (?) essentially says to Alice in the middle of the big scene with the death of Bercoulli "I know your loss is great, but what's really important is Kirito and how much he's sacrificing...". The silliness of that had me laughing at what should have been a touching moment. Item#2 and Focus- Where we differ is that IMO the focus of SAO Ep1-14 is on how people act and change in an extraordinary situation told through Kirito's and Asuna's journey through Aincrad and not the Real/Virtual dichotomy and VR good or bad ruminations. But that changed Ep15-25 and S2 to what you describe and focused more on Kirito himself (Asuna not so much) which is why I say SAO lost focus. I am absolutely saying that if the intent was to focus on Kirito's and Sinon's PTSD journey to healing in S2, the story shouldn't have gone so much in detail on the Death Gun Murder Mystery and trying to get a Kirito/Sinon ship sailing or Sinon having to be the "strongest ever like Kirito". If the story had instead gone into how otherwise peaceful Good Citizens could go crazy in GGO and how that changed and related to what they did IRL (as GGO alt did) that would have continued the story focus of S1 Ep1-14. Several writers have agreed that the best or most interesting stories are when people are the focus and not the details of technology or philosophy. And SAOA started that way with Kirito/Eugeo but then derailed into the "save Alice from the bad guys" and Incarnation, Fluctlights and other stuff. BTW, for everyone else, at IP http://52.68.96.58/ is an open page with the header "Our Memories are Right Here" SAO Alicization War of Underworld. Last edited by Hiroki not Takuya on Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:20 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18187 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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No, you're missing some obvious, very practical explanations and are unclear on the details. Absolutely nothing indicates that 200 years have passed since Kirito and Asuna were in Underworld. We don't know if they were active the whole 200 years that they were in Underworld after Alice's exit, but they were clearly active for quite a long time. That means, based on the date provided at the end, that they could have been gone as little as a few decades. There are these neat "recording devices" called "paintings" which could easily explain how the pilots would know what Kiroto and Alice look like, and if they were advanced enough to have spacecraft then something equivalent to a camera isn't unreasonable at all. And the pilots aren't personally in love with Kiroto; a venerated figure from their history has just reappeared. You think people wouldn't have expressions like that if Jesus or Mohammad were to suddenly appear?
There are a few places where the episode lapses on fully explaining things that were clear in the book, and this is one of them. Alice was naked because she had to unlock her joints to fit in the box, and she presumably can't do that while dressed.
Pretty sure this is meant to refer to when Alice went back to Rulid at the beginning of War of Underworld. If you recall, her father didn't acknowledge her then.
Descendants, not reincarnations.
They could have easily recognized them from pictures.
All that's been revealed is that it was the drop item for the boss of floor 50 in Aincrad. It was mostly but not entirely maxed out by the end of the series, but was still, at worst, one of the strongest swords in the game.
For one, Alice did it first, back when they were kids. (Her doing it while she was hanging around out on the wall with Kirito was breaking her Integrity Knight conditioning.) Remember, Higa and Kikuoka were aware that she had appeared well before Kirito would have reached her (and I think maybe even before he was brought to the Ocean Turtle?). Lilpilin did accomplish the same thing, and was noticed by Kikuoka and Rinko, but his case was not regarded as being on quite the same level as Alice's because he accomplished it through emotional, rather than logical means, and that same reasoning should also apply to Eugeo. Alice, OTOH, broke her eye seal through logical reasoning. (This is either detailed or implied by episode 16 of War of Underworld.) |
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Hiroki not Takuya
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I don't think you can say that breaking Code 182 is her breaking her IK training as several other non-IKs did the same. They show a couple of times, breaking the IK conditioning happens when the memory block (literal) gets rejected as happened with Eugeo S32. That never happened to Alice and she did not break Code 182 until she was synthesis 31 which I think was meant to be the signal that she was an "A.L.I.C.E." but Eugeo was actually the first (as a kid she just tripped for goodness sake). Or are you making the distinction that just the resultant of said trip qualified as breaking the Taboo Index but not breaking Code182? If so, why was Eugeo sentenced for having broken the Index? Yes, good point about paintings but when you mention Jesus and Mohammad, neither had a painting or drawing done (takes a lot of time and motivation) so we would know what they looked like. I always chuckle that in modern times images have appeared in tortillas or stucco walls that people claimed were of Jesus and people buy that because of some Renaissance paintings. |
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Birriaman
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I probably missed something, but why did Kirito and Asuna assume that time stopped still after they left Underworld (or at least went back to a time dillation equal to the real world)? As far as I remember the acceleration began but it wasn’t stated that it would end when they got them out. It made total sense to me (stupid looking, but obvious) when they appeared in front of a high-tech world with a completely new space calendar we have no idea how far in the future it actually was. So again, unless I’m missing something, shouldn’t time in the Underworld have continued at the accelerated pace making their return there several tens of thousands of years after they left?
That and the naked boxed Alice thing where by biggest questions, but someone already answered that one. Oh, and why would Kirito’s father gloss over the fact that his son was at Rath because he had been stabbed, not for a mission? Unless he only knew about Kirito going to Rath the first time and not knowing he got stabbed after he got back, which is what they meant by “he just disappeared”? In that case, couldn’t one of his friends tell them? Hell, couldn’t Suguha tell them what had happened to him? And bravo, apparently we have no more rape scenes in the future. Can’t remember who mentioned it in an earlier post so I can’t credit you, but it seems they’re getting rid of one of the aspects of SAO I hate the most. Maybe Reiki will do something about the other two: initially strong female characters who are dumbed down so they can be part of the ever growing harem and Kirito... just.KIRITO. And then I’ll get on my flying pig and go beat up some tentacle eye-monsters in stardate 24316. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18187 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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It has been 200 years for Alice, and 200 years since the last things that Kirito and Asuna remember. So I don't see any issue there.
Think you mean Code 871. That aside, you're right, what originally drew attention to Alice was breaking the Taboo Index, something she did without triggering Code 871. That separated her case from the others. Her later breaking of Code 871 just overcame the synthesis ritual's effect on making her rigidly follow of the Taboo Index and the Church. EDIT:
They didn't assumed time stopped. That being said, the anime says nothing about what happened to the acceleration (i.e., whether it was maintained or not), and the original novel isn't much clearer. The novel does mention the two pilots observing that 30 years had passed since the king and queen "vanished," but whether they vanished at the time that they were pulled out or went into deep sleep prior to that point is unclear. At most, 30 years have passed in Underworld since Kirito and Asuna were pulled out. Now, that doesn't jive with the date in the final episode, so that may be an adaptation error. |
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Kisuke525
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Man I thought I would be answering like a million questions today, but luckily Key has handled it. Key if you're reading this then I thank you! Anyway... the girls actually don't recognize Kirito. The FEELING of knowing him back at the sword academy was passed from their ancestors Tiese and Ronye thanks to the nature of The Underworld. The only one who is recognized is Alice and that's because of paintings. And they don't love him..... are you trolling right now or something? As for the processor thing.... no that isn't me. Why did you think it was? And this stuff is kinda complex, so I really don't feel like explaining it all. Sorry, but I'm gonna pass on this one. As for the real/virtual thing.... You are thinking WAY to much about the Alice/reporter thing. This is not gonna be like The Matrix. I don't know how many more times I have to say this, but what you're thinking is going on REALLY isn't. Yeah Alice sensing them returning dosen't make sense.... I mean it's not like she can connect to stuff wirelessly like say the computers monitoring Kirito and Asuna right? Nah that couldn't be it.... Again.... I know you seem dead set on this Matrix type thing, but it just isn't there. As for Kirito sensing the arrival of the girls in The Underworld.... It's because of the data connection. They literally say it's because of the data connection... Everything is right in front of you, but for some reason you just don't want to believe it. I know you wanna say Reki ripped off the Matrix and he's a bad writer for it, but sorry man this isn't gonna be The Matrix. I'm honestly starting to think that you have been trolling me this whole time... As for Vassago's body.... Dude... I don't even... Vassago wasn't even the character involved in the hell scene.... And you think his body might have just evaporated.... did you consider the possibility of him getting up and I dunno.... walking away? Yeah the series is definitely trying to say that if you die in the virtual world, you die in the real world and disappear like data in The Underworld.... Despite the fact that Gabriel and Vassago both died on the Underworld accounts they were using and DIDN'T die in the real world and disappear after that.... Gabriel then dies AGAIN on his Subtilizer account and you see his body in the real world and the rest of his team take it away.... There is no way that you believe what you just wrote... It's just too ridiculous. You really are trolling me aren't you? As for #5 I think you are REALLY exaggerating here. First off yes the anime does handle some scenes differently. I mean I've only said not to judge Reki's writing skill by an adaptation like a hundred times on this forum... And you make it sound like backstory is a bad thing even though it isn't. And Reki conveys things without info dumps tons of times, so I have no idea where you get this idea that he can't. Reki describes the technology in detail because it's one of the most important things in the entire arc. And of course H.G. Wells does things differently with "The Time Machine" it's a freaking 84 page novella! There isn't time to explore everything in depth and he likely doesn't want to because an extremely detailed look at the machines and society is obviously not something he's going for in "The Time Machine". Alicization on the other hand is a story that's over 2000 pages long! Seeing how the world and technology works in each SAO arc is a big part of the series and a big part of the fun and Alicization is no different. One of my favorite things about Alicization is the amount of detail in the technology and world and I know a lot of people agree with that. Honestly I don't even know why you're comparing SAO and "The Time Machine" they are both doing completely different things in completely different ways. #4. The conversation between Alice and SINON is not in the middle of the big death scene. I don't remember how it happened in the anime, but in the novels Alice seeing dead Bercouli and her conversation with Sinon are separated by over 40 pages. Also it seems you have misunderstood things... again... Sinon is not saying what's really important is Kirito's suffering.... Alice says it's unfair that real worlders don't suffer in The Underworld and Sinon says that even if they don't die they can still suffer in other ways that's why Kirito is brought up. And then tells her that she needs to go on because people like Bercouli and Kirito are risking themselves for her to escape. This scene isn't about Kirito at all it's about how far people are willing to go to get Alice out of there and why she should run instead of going back to fight. I don't know how you misunderstand so many things in this series.... #2 I guess we will just have to differ on this one because IMO you are just wrong. It has always been as I said and I don't really know how you can't see it. As for the S2 stuff... As I said each arc shows the good and bad that comes from VR. The good was how it can be used to help deal with PTSD the bad had to do with the Death Gun stuff. First off no ship was trying to sail between Kirito and Sinon that was just the anime making it out to be that way and Sinon didn't want to be strongest in GGO because she "wants to be the bestest ever just like Kirito!!!" ..... She wants to be the strongest in GGO because she thinks that if she becomes the strongest in a world of guns she won't have problems with them in the real world anymore. As for the death gun stuff.... either the anime messed up "can't remember" or you have forgot/misunderstood.... again.... the Death Gun killings were not done by a single person they were done by two people "technically three". That's why there was a mystery because at the time nobody knew how someone could be killed in real life by being killed in GGO. And actually the bad part of VR is shown once again here because it shows how someone can become obsessed with virtual reality. And the person I'm talking about is Shinkawa Kyouji "Sinon's friend" The anime downplayed this a lot, but this dude's life was basically falling apart in his eyes. He was constantly being bullied at school and his parents were forcing him into the medical field "even though he hated it" so that he could succeed them. GGO was his only escape from all that and he ended up becoming obsessed with the game. As for why he started killing people... I don't feel like explaining in detail, but it's because the people he killed previously screwed him over and because his brother "the Laughing Coffin member" encouraged him to. As for SAOA... I have know idea how you can say it derailed into saving Alice from the bad guys when that was the whole point of Kirito and Eugeo's journey from the beginning.... Fluctlights were also explained at the very beginning and the technological aspect of Incarnation was as well.... Anyway I think I'm done. Doing this is just too much of a hassle and I just don't have the time to explain all this anymore. Typing this on a phone is also annoying as hell. Sorry if I seem like a jackass this time, but doing all this has gotten annoying. Besides if anyone has any questions they can probably just ask Key. A friend of mine said I shouldn't waste my time explaining things to people because there's better things to do with my time and I think I'm finally gonna take his advice. Again, sorry if I came off like a jackass. Oh, and if I misunderstood something or said something that makes no sense I apologize. Just chalk it up to me being dead tired half the time I'm on here. And there's no need to reply to this either since I won't be coming back in fear of feeling the need to write walls again lol. |
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Dr. Wily
Posts: 261 |
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I figured when King Kirito said that Underworld was facing problems that there was political unrest or something, not SPACE MONSTERS. Also it's weird that the whole of Underworld is apparently on some little part of a whole planet. I mean, I figured since Underworld is a game built on a game engine that it'd have hard limits on distance like games do but whatever, I'm long past trying to apply anything like logic to Underworld. The digital world in Digimon made more sense, frankly.
I mean, it's possible that he walked away. Let me rephrase that, he definitely walked away because I can take the hint from what you're saying, but the reason people ask about it is because they made a point to show he has the same crazy death mask face that the actually-dead Gabe had. Plus, I don't know/forget the exact time frame on how quick their tech guy pulled them out after the acceleration started, but no matter what Vassago spent like, a century as a tree, it's not a far leap to say his brain is toast. But he just... walked off without talking to the tech guy, without talking to anybody in his squad. And the show just kind of... drops it. What happened? Who cares! Let's check out Alice's press conference. |
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Hiroki not Takuya
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@Kisuke525- I don't "troll" but I keep pointing out and bringing up the same things as explanation and you keep not accepting so, yes have fun with Progressive. |
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Dr. Wily
Posts: 261 |
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You know, my final thought on this season now that it's all said and done, is that I wonder why they chose to adapt this the way they did. It's become abundantly clear via all the talk from the LN readers in this thread that there is a ton of stuff lost in translation from page to screen that mostly boils down to the loss of Kirito not having an internal monologue.
I'm sure some stuff was lost in the prior two series, but by and large I'd say those series worked fine as presented. They were comprehensible, anything particularly wild could be chalked up to artistic license or just things getting crazy because of high stakes and/or drama (didn't have to have Incarnation brought up all the time, that's for sure), and there weren't too many dangling plot threads. But this one... whoo boy. When Alicization was announced as being a four-cour show, it seemed a little long, but now it feels like it should've been even longer to get everything that needed to be gotten on the screen. I can't think of any franchises that pivot drastically in format/presentation between seasons/sequel series, maybe A1 felt locked into a style after two shows' worth of SAO? I wonder what the solution is, ultimately. Maybe have other characters ask questions to facilitate Kirito explaining game systems in detail? It may be silly to have Kirito going "Well Asuna/Klein/Eugeo/etc., as you know, [game explanation jargon] blahblahblah..." all the time but hell, it's something. I'm chuckling to myself thinking of some sort of JoJo situation where Klein or Ghost-Eugeo can just Speedwagon it up and explain all the BS in those last few fights as they go down. Or just give Kirito his inner monologue back and break the formula. One thing's for sure, something's gotta change if the future of the franchise is gonna resemble Alicization more than what's come before because this season was rough (I'm referring specifically to War of Underworld Part 2, but Alicization and WoU part 1 certainly aren't perfect). I guess at least Progressive's coming next, so writers have plenty of time to figure out what they're gonna do in SAO 4: SWORDS. IN. SPAAACE. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18187 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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^
I don't know why you keep insisting on this commentary, so let me be as clear as possible: NOT THAT MUCH WAS CUT OUT! You're making it sound like the adaptation massacred the original novels, but it doesn't. Sure, there are cuts here and there, but nearly everything that was cut out falls in the "common adaptation casualty" category. Alicization is, honestly, about average for source material accuracy as LN adaptations go. Could the adaptation have been clearer on a few points? Maybe, but I'm honestly not sure how without resorting to the infamous Speedwagon approach. (More time wouldn't have made much of a difference, I think.) And frankly, the fudge factor of Incarnation - which seems to be the favorite point to rail on about - is about the same as in the source novels. Oh, one point from the last review that I want to elaborate on further: the emblem on the inside of the dragoncraft cockpit didn't just have twin swords, it also had blue roses and osmanthus flowers, the symbols of both Eugeo and Alice. Easy detail to miss unless you're looking very closely. |
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Dr. Wily
Posts: 261 |
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I'm honestly not saying how much was cut out because I don't know how much was cut out. All I do know is that whenever I've complained or griped about stuff in the show I found dumb in this thread (and others on other forums, not trying to call out anyone or anything), the answer is always "oh that's much more clear in the LN" or "the LNs explain [plot element] way better". And I have genuinely liked SAO all the way up until this season without reading the LNs, so I guess I kind of assumed that the reason I didn't like this season so much must be a poor adaptation. I guess now I realize that I just didn't like this story and shoulda ducked out after Administrator bit it and read the rest of the season on wikipedia before checking in whenever Space Art Online comes out. |
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Gina Szanboti
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And yet every review has talked about all the stuff that was cut out, while simultaneously handwaving away any need for it. What you don't seem to be getting is that for people who've read the source material first, maybe it doesn't seem important since you've already absorbed all the info. But anime-only folk don't have that advantage, and to us it sounds like a lot of important stuff got cut out, since we're finding it nonsensical as it is. Hence why it keeps coming up. At one point Dr. Wily said, "I seriously don't think the show itself has ever even brought up the term Incarnation, I'd never heard of it until reading it here." No one ever addressed that, which I was waiting for since I was feeling the same way. So when was it first mentioned in the anime? I'm quite willing to believe I missed it, or forgot it, as I am wont to do, but I really was scratching my head when people suddenly started talking about it in here. And then Kiskuse525 said, "Look at Incarnation. It's properly explained in the novels" (but apparently not in the anime), and "I'm not sure how much rewatching would help you understand Incarnation anyway, because the anime does not explain Incarnation in as much detail as the novels." This is damning for a story that ends up depending so heavily on this mechanic for nearly everything by the end. Especially for someone like me who really gets their hackles up when told to "read the manga/LN," as though the lapses in an adaptation are my fault for not doing due diligence in researching the source materials. (aside: I've noticed a lot less of that during the complaints about the Webtoon adaptations, as if no one really expects anyone to bother reading Webtoons the same way they insist that people read manga or LNs. Wonder why...) |
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jr240483
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but there is another notion you and the article writer forgot! its technically NOT the end of SAO! sure its the end for the anime, BUT FOR THE LIGHT NOVELS HOWEVER, there is another new arc thats comes right after alicization! that is unless the wrtiter isnt counting that arc considering that im hearing from LN readers that its even worse than fairy dance! |
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