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EP. REVIEW: Sword Art Online: Alicization War of Underworld Part 2


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spoon89



Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 45
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:33 am Reply with quote
The animation for this second part of War of Underworld has been really good so far and truly it's been a long while since we had a worthy action sequence for the entire franchise, I am thoroughly satisfied with how Bercouli Vs Vecta turned out. Looking forward to more great action sequences and overpowered techniques.
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Pedram



Joined: 31 Mar 2012
Posts: 56
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:31 am Reply with quote
Gina Szanboti wrote:
The whole idea of recreating someone's personality from other people's perceptions of them is...I don't even know what word to use to describe that. Insane? Wrong? Idiotic? Sure, in this universe they could create a personality from others' pov, but it wouldn't be anything like the Kirito that Kirito sees himself to be. It would just be a new construct labeled Kirito. It makes about as much sense as trying to rebuild a person out of fragments of their parents' DNA and expecting to get the same person again because you're using the same pieces to start from.

I know it's just a show, but given that this was aimed at angsty teenagers who feel that no one really knows them (and they would be right), I gotta wonder how well that idea will fly (or has flown up to now). I dunno, maybe, like Kirito himself, it feeds into the fantasy that other people who know the real you in all your messy, interior detail can actually exist.


Ahh, rip Bercouli. I was fond of the old man, but he went out like a champ. Crying or Very sad


DRosencraft wrote:
Gotta say I really loved the Bercoulli fight. I also love the idea that a non-main (so not one of Kirito and Asuna's gang) was able to take down big boss Vecta; foreshadowing wise it sets up well for an "after" future of this world where Asuna isn't a goddess from on high coming down to save the day. It makes for a powerful symbol that a denizen of this world took down the big bad, even if he lost his life in the process.

As for the plan for reviving Kirito... I don't think any other anime has made me vocally chastise it while it was airing. That plan is so full of "nope" I don't even know how to fully explain it all without going into a full rant. I'll just build on what Gina Szanboti said earlier in this thread; a person's vision of themselves which creates their sense of self is different from the view of that person in other's eyes. The very fact that they aren't with you 24/7 in your head defines the fact that they can only know so much about you. I get that they tried to skirt around this by suggesting that the overlap of perceptions from three individuals can cover some of those blind spots, and the apparent suggestion this is meant to be more of a jump start rather than a complete rebuild, but it's still a very, very, tenuous at best. In fact, this is actually a good way of destroying one's sense of self, as it can be traumatic if the way you view yourself is significantly different from the way others view you.


Honestly, When I read about this back in 2017~2018 in the Light Novel, I thought it was a pretty good plan and I still think so.

I think you guys are looking at it wrongly.

They are not Re-creating Kirito, but just repairing him.

Making the same person using the same DNA example that you used, is completely wrong here.

This is like a person scattering into several piece, then you use his DNA to create a clone of him, then look at the clone as a blueprint and put the "scattered pieces" of the original person back together.

Higa also didn't come up with this plan out of nowhere... he clearly see and showed us how Asuna and Sinon's image of Kirito made a resonance with Kirito's broken self to varying degree. (More Asuna less Sinon)

Also they are not Forcing Asuna/Sinon/Leafa's image of Kirito to "rewrite" Kirito's self.

They are "connecting them to kirito" to basically shock Kirito's conscious back into repairing itself. Similar to how he was acting more active when he meet them in Underworld.

So yeh, the important thing here is to know, Kirito's conscious or memory is not "deleted" it's just broken and need repairing.

this is not a full on re-creation of Kirito. if that was the case, they could simply re-create Eugeo from Kirito and Selka's memory too if they wanted to. but that would not really be the same Eugeo anymore. so I'm pretty sure they will not do it.
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Engineering Nerd



Joined: 24 Apr 2008
Posts: 788
Location: Southern California
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:10 pm Reply with quote
As a Novel reader too(it’s been a while though) I need a quick confirmation from Key or other fellow novel readers: the Chinese girl who is suspicious about the whole mess is anime-original right? (The Korean guy on the other hand is in the novel, he does have some roles to play) If so, I applaud the production team at least attempted to make Korean and Chinese gamers much less like hive-minded bots.

In fact, judging from the last trailer before the last season airs, you can see those two characters have joined the sides of Japanese players.


Last edited by Engineering Nerd on Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dr. Wily



Joined: 09 Nov 2007
Posts: 119
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:17 pm Reply with quote
I thought Gabe might be a more interesting villain once he was forced into a less powerful account than the literal dark emperor but nope, of course his alt is some sort of superhuman that can put a mind-whammy on Sinon instantly.

At least Kirito will finally have a worthy foe in the "total bs" ability department.
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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
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Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:49 pm Reply with quote
Engineering Nerd wrote:
As a Novel reader too(it’s been a while though) I need a quick reminder from Key or other fellow novel readers: the Chinese girl who is suspicious about the whole mess is anime-original right?

Not exactly. The Korean guy does talk to a guild mate at that point in the novel, but that guild mate was not explicitly identified by race or gender. (The guild mate is referred to as "Hwanung," who is a Korean mythological figure, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.) The name the guy uses here for the Chinese girl is not in the novel, and the tenor of the guild mate's dialog is distinctly different. Also, the Korean guy doesn't talk to anyone right away once in the game.

So yeah, things got tweaked there but not entirely added anew.
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Kisuke525



Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 191
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:31 pm Reply with quote
Dr. Wily wrote:
I thought Gabe might be a more interesting villain once he was forced into a less powerful account than the literal dark emperor but nope, of course his alt is some sort of superhuman that can put a mind-whammy on Sinon instantly.

At least Kirito will finally have a worthy foe in the "total bs" ability department.


Stats aren't as important in the Underworld since they only make you a bit more durable and allow you to lift objects that have a higher authority requirement. You can see how little the extra durability helps when Asuna's arm is sliced off in a single swing by a fairly weak American player in one of the earlier episodes. The only other thing the God/Goddess accounts have is one unique account specific ability. Sinon can fly, Asuna can alter the terrain, Leafa I won't mention for now, and Vecta can tamper with the fluctlights of living people and creatures. In the Underworld a fight is more about skill and incarnation which are things that aren't tied to an account. Besides, Subtilizer is the account Gabriel used to win the 1st and 4th Bullet of Bullets tournament so it's not like it's a weak account anyway.

And out of curiosity what bs abilities does Kirito have? None are coming to mind unless you mean dual wielding, but that is only a special thing in Aincrad.
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Hiroki not Takuya



Joined: 17 Apr 2012
Posts: 1598
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:17 pm Reply with quote
^Not sure how someone that has watched more than a couple of SAO seasons can ask that question, but to be clear I think the reference isn't about specific abilities per se, but that The Black Swordsman beats every boss, every opponent (see Ordinal Scale), gets every woman he comes into contact with excepting bad ones like Administrator or The Murder-chan Twins whether he or she can help it or not. Across at least three LN series not counting games and OVA. And he defeated Administrator too. Fanatio being a special case since she turns out to be pregnant by someone else which would been awkward otherwise. That's a high level of BS for a protag if you ask me...
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Kisuke525



Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 191
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:32 pm Reply with quote
Hiroki not Takuya wrote:
^Not sure how someone that has watched more than a couple of SAO seasons can ask that question, but to be clear I think the reference isn't about specific abilities per se, but that The Black Swordsman beats every boss, every opponent (see Ordinal Scale), gets every woman he comes into contact with excepting bad ones like Administrator or The Murder-chan Twins whether he or she can help it or not. Across at least three LN series not counting games and OVA. And he defeated Administrator too. Fanatio being a special case since she turns out to be pregnant by someone else which would been awkward otherwise. That's a high level of BS for a protag if you ask me...


Funny you should say that because I wonder the opposite. I know people like to make Kirito out to be some overpowered unstoppable badass who never loses but that just isn't true. Kirito does not beat Kayaba in their fight on the 75th floor he is killed by him. The system brings Kirito back after Kayaba kills him and Kayaba lets himself get stabbed. The FIGHT between them was over with Kirito being the loser in it. Kirito AND Asuna also fail to defeat the Fatal Scythe on an earlier floor and need to be saved by Yui. I do not consider that to be a win for Kirito either. Kirito is also defeated by Administrator's Sword Golem which is only defeated by Eugeo in sword form. That is also not a win for Kirito imo.

As for the fight against Administrator I find that to be pretty iffy as well. Administrator was still alive after Kirito's final hit and was only killed because Chudelkin burned her alive. Kirito was so exhausted at that point that he collapsed so I don't think he was in any position to fight either. You also have to remember that Kirito only did as well as he did in that fight because Administrator was already badly wounded by Eugeo, so Kirito already had an unfair advantage.

There are also other occasions where Kirito fails to succeed, like his attempt to climb the World Tree in ALO alone or his failure to save the Moonlit Black Cats after Kirito and them fall into a trap. If were counting fights that aren't life or death he also loses to Yuuki twice. He is also only able to tie with Alice when they fight and that was with the help of Eugeo.

There are more, but I think I've made my point. Kirito is not an unstoppable badass. Sometimes he wins sometimes he loses, but even when he wins 90% of the time it's by the skin of his teeth and almost never a stomp like people make it out to be. I've seen a lot of overpowered characters in anime, manga, and light novels and imo Kirito just isn't one of them. Hell, his win rate isn't even that good compared to non overpowered MC's imo. I really don't get why people think this dude is overpowered when you can clearly see that he's not by watching the anime or reading the novel. Is it because of that damn Gleam Eyes fight!?!?
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Gina Szanboti



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:42 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
The anime version deviates from the original novel by even suggesting that Yanai was the tentacle monster who caught Asuna

Of course it did. They never pass up an opportunity for sleazy fan service, even if it's old footage. Rolling Eyes
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Yuvelir



Joined: 06 Jan 2015
Posts: 764
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 4:54 pm Reply with quote
I was enjoying Alicization up to Administrator's defeat but honestly, War of the Underworld has been such a neverending slog, revelling in torture and misery as the action and story move at a glacial pace, plus a newfound taste for random amputations. Like they aren't even gruesome or scary anymore, just edgy.
And let's not get into all the Kirito Kirito Kirito Kirito Kirito. Sure, they're there to save him but it's tiring to have them crying for him 95% of the time (and then getting saved by his magical spirit several times. Could they be their own characters for once?
(incidentally, I remember reading about the writer making an effort to treat his female character betters and I thought it had to be an exaggeration since by Mother's Rosario he had improved a lot already. But hoo boy little did I know...)

This episode was specially bad by abusing all that to the extreme and also further slowing down the action by reintroducing two characters from the movie. Which I didn't know, but they were so well-known by other players, the guy's seiyuu was so bad at this and ultimately their intervention was so inconsequential that there was no way that they weren't an anime original insert.

I just want this to be over and move on to the next arc.
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Kisuke525



Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 191
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:50 pm Reply with quote
Yuvelir wrote:
I was enjoying Alicization up to Administrator's defeat but honestly, War of the Underworld has been such a neverending slog, revelling in torture and misery as the action and story move at a glacial pace, plus a newfound taste for random amputations. Like they aren't even gruesome or scary anymore, just edgy.
And let's not get into all the Kirito Kirito Kirito Kirito Kirito. Sure, they're there to save him but it's tiring to have them crying for him 95% of the time (and then getting saved by his magical spirit several times. Could they be their own characters for once?
(incidentally, I remember reading about the writer making an effort to treat his female character betters and I thought it had to be an exaggeration since by Mother's Rosario he had improved a lot already. But hoo boy little did I know...)

This episode was specially bad by abusing all that to the extreme and also further slowing down the action by reintroducing two characters from the movie. Which I didn't know, but they were so well-known by other players, the guy's seiyuu was so bad at this and ultimately their intervention was so inconsequential that there was no way that they weren't an anime original insert.

I just want this to be over and move on to the next arc.


Uh... Nobody has been saved by Kirito's "magical spirit?" Are you talking about Sinon saving herself by using Incarnation? That's completely her doing Kirito isn't doing anything. I really don't get how some people seem to forget Incarnation exists even though it keeps being used...

As for Reki Kawahara's comment about his female characters what were you expecting? This arc ended around 10 years before he said that so it obviously wasn't going to be affected lol. So if you wanna see improvements on that front you will have to wait until the the Unital Ring arc or check out SAO: Progressive or Accel World.
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Yuvelir



Joined: 06 Jan 2015
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:13 pm Reply with quote
Kisuke525 wrote:
Uh... Nobody has been saved by Kirito's "magical spirit?" Are you talking about Sinon saving herself by using Incarnation? That's completely her doing Kirito isn't doing anything. I really don't get how some people seem to forget Incarnation exists even though it keeps being used...

As for Reki Kawahara's comment about his female characters what were you expecting? This arc ended around 10 years before he said that so it obviously wasn't going to be affected lol. So if you wanna see improvements on that front you will have to wait until the the Unital Ring arc or check out SAO: Progressive or Accel World.

Let's not get into the whole Incarnation thing because it's getting more ludicrous as it goes on.
I don't care about debugging this series by attacking the meaningless minutia, but I do care about how the girls are holding on solely because they keep mentioning his name every other second. Or how everyone in this war seems to count on him as if they were summoning a god. They literally expect him to wake up and whoop all the baddies as the only capable hero in the whole underworld.

And of course I know this was written a long time ago. I'm not mentioning Mother's Rosario out of a whim. At that point he had achieved some stuff as a writer and I didn't think he would go backwards, but here we are.
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Kisuke525



Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 191
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:30 pm Reply with quote
Yuvelir wrote:
Kisuke525 wrote:
Uh... Nobody has been saved by Kirito's "magical spirit?" Are you talking about Sinon saving herself by using Incarnation? That's completely her doing Kirito isn't doing anything. I really don't get how some people seem to forget Incarnation exists even though it keeps being used...

As for Reki Kawahara's comment about his female characters what were you expecting? This arc ended around 10 years before he said that so it obviously wasn't going to be affected lol. So if you wanna see improvements on that front you will have to wait until the the Unital Ring arc or check out SAO: Progressive or Accel World.

Let's not get into the whole Incarnation thing because it's getting more ludicrous as it goes on.
I don't care about debugging this series by attacking the meaningless minutia, but I do care about how the girls are holding on solely because they keep mentioning his name every other second. Or how everyone in this war seems to count on him as if they were summoning a god. They literally expect him to wake up and whoop all the baddies as the only capable hero in the whole underworld.

And of course I know this was written a long time ago. I'm not mentioning Mother's Rosario out of a whim. At that point he had achieved some stuff as a writer and I didn't think he would go backwards, but here we are.


Incarnation has been working exactly as stated so I really don't understand the complaint there. All Sinon did with it was block a bullet, transform her bow, and push herself away all those things have been done before. Hell, moving things with Incarnation has been a thing since the first episode of Alicization. As for Kirito, the only people that are genuinely praying for his return are his friends and family which is not unusual at all especially since that's the main reason they jumped in so how is a small percentage of people = everyone in the war? And apparently it's odd to think about the main reason you're fighting while you're fighting? The girls are holding on because they are strong and want to save Kirito and the Underworld what is wrong with that? They are trying to focus on their goal while enduring insane amounts of pain. Am I the only one who finds that commendable? Nobody seems to mind when Kirito fights for his friends so why is it a problem when other characters do it?

I find your complaints to be pretty odd honestly. Your Incarnation complaint seems to come from a lack of understanding though, so I can kinda understand that.
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CrypticPurpose



Joined: 15 Jan 2020
Posts: 101
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:09 pm Reply with quote
I really liked the last season, but this one feels like bad fan fiction.

Magically connecting tens of thousands of players to a secret government simulation not built for that purpose was bad enough, but the bad guy magically gets a magical floating platform, can magically suck souls and telekinetically strangle people, people can magically transform their weapons, and then the other bad guy gets a magical brainwash ray that can even control real people playing using an amusphere? And don't get me started on the plan to reboot Kirito (As a psychologist with a neurology background, that hurts the most).

It's one thing to have magical abilities because you're on a God account programmed to have super powers; but this is just rule-of-cool BS. At this point I'm just waiting for Kirito to be reborn as Jesus, summon a holy Gundam and lay waste to all evil, both inside and out of the Underworld.
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Yuvelir



Joined: 06 Jan 2015
Posts: 764
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:46 pm Reply with quote
Come think of it, Eiji biting the dust like that means he's very unlikely to ever show up again, right? Since his good account is gone.

CrypticPurpose wrote:
It's one thing to have magical abilities because you're on a God account programmed to have super powers; but this is just rule-of-cool BS. At this point I'm just waiting for Kirito to be reborn as Jesus, summon a holy Gundam and lay waste to all evil, both inside and out of the Underworld.

Given the Incarnation system, he just has to imagine it hard enough!
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