Forum - View topicINTEREST: Gundam's Tomino, Yasuhiko Comments on War Themes in Girls & Panzer, KanColle
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fathomlessblue
 Posts: 345 Location: Manchester, UK |
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I took it to be commentary about how if someone's only response is churlish dismissal masking defensiveness instead of actually discussing the points made in the article, then that's literally the level of engagement they invite back, but eh, what do I know. 
Last edited by fathomlessblue on Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Rogueywon
Posts: 250 |
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Ehh... complex one.
Got to say, I found bits of KanColle and Girls und Panzer uncomfortable. They make extensive use of WW2 imagery, with the Axis stuff getting equal billing with the Allied. There's a horribly complex history of anime intersecting with radical Japanese politics, from Space Battleship Yamato through to Code Geass S2. They've got the whole horseshoe-effect thing going, where the far-right wants to re-interpret WW2 as Japan's legitimate ambitions being crushed by a colonial power and the far-left wanting to reinterpret it as "America is bad so Japan must have been good". The Iron Crosses (which admittedly have pre-Nazi pedigree) in Girls und Panzer and the reimagination of actual WW2 battles in KanColle can feel uncomfortable in that context. It's hard not to see the last two episodes of the KanColle TV anime as "Midway but Japan wins". And let's be clear, there are still bits of anime, manga and Japanese gaming that sometimes get a bit weird in this respect. Yamato 2199 tried to neuter some of the far-right undertones of the original, but it still has some very odd vibes. Valkyria Chronicles 4 goes pretty close to absolving Japan of its WW2 sins because "OMG Hiroshima" in its final acts. Other anime, ranging from the crap (Coppellion) to the legendary (Grave of the Fireflies) have skirted with similar themes. And yet, weidly, on reflection I don't think Girls und Panzer or Kancolle end up as particularly unpleasant when you actually look at them in detail. GuP is, in structure and tone, a sports anime about a very strange sport. There's very little ideology in there... it's mostly just about throwing cool tanks around. Kancolle engages with WW2 more directly, but the movie goes some very strange (and interesting) places that definitely marks it out as "not a simple WW2 reimagining". Code Geass S2 remains, for me, the epitome of "thematically creepy" when it comes to this stuff. Plus Tomino is Mister "War sucks but my god I like the money I'm making from those toy sales". |
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Electric Wooloo
Posts: 310 |
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I think even putting GuP and Kancolle in the same category is a bit disingenuous to begin with, though not really surprising to someone not familiar with either series.
GuP is all about removing the war from the weapons and focusing more on the engineering and individual tactics in a sports anime like setting. It also goes to lengths satirizing the different sides in WW2, including Japan, with it's portrayals of the schools injecting actual historical attitudes albeit exaggerated ones. You can argue whether or not you CAN actually remove the war from weapons made for war, but it never seemed to be in any way glorifying war, and it takes a serious tone in actual mock battles portraying what it was like to be caught in those situations, though of course there are no life threatening stakes. Do some people still watch it because "Guns are cool, war is cool?" Yes, but better they get that from a series like GuP than a blatantly Nationalistic one like Gate. Kancolle on the other hand does the opposite, it keeps the war setting but treats its characters and the war itself with all the seriousness of a high school slice of life. The characters go to literal war and come back to silly shenanigans and light-hearted interactions. Kancolle almost infantalizes war and makes it seem like a Sunday stroll. GuP is "these are how these machines worked and here's a battle showing them in action" Kancolle is "Gotta kill these American boats so I can get home in time for curry!" |
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AmpersandsUnited
Posts: 633 |
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From what I always heard, Bandai pretty much let Tomino do whatever he wanted with the series so long as the toys kept selling Gundam may be a bit contradictory, but "war is bad" is not exactly a complex or controversial statement. It's probably one of the most basic statements you can make. Nobody likes war. It just something that unfortunately can't be avoided. Organizations like the JSDF or military in general are kept so that if other countries suddenly decide to roll up on your doorstep to invade you you can fight back. Whether or not a show should make war 'fun', well... Nothing in Girls und Panzer promotes war or violence in my opinion so I don't agree with his criticism. Treating vehicles and weapons like toys? Well, I don't see anything wrong personally with that. I think that would only lead down a slippery slope in the end. For example, Lego is known for not making any kind of sets based on military vehicles, yet they still make things like castle battle sets, pirate fight sets, fighting robots sets, and other stuff you could technically classify as war or battle themed. So I guess I'd ask why making tanks fun is bad but other weapons like swords, cannons, martial arts, giant robots, and other weapons are okay. Last edited by AmpersandsUnited on Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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fathomlessblue
Posts: 345 Location: Manchester, UK |
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As is often the case with Tomino - interesting and even insightful views, given by someone with perhaps not the best track history to be confidentially making them.
It definitely presents as an interesting angle on things like military industrial complex fetishization or the commercial repackaging of war tech that I’d never really thought much about. Obviously, I don’t think Tomino is saying people are bad for enjoying Azur Lane, etc, but that from the perspective of people that have had to actually deal with the consequences of such weaponry, seeing the youth essentially ‘mascotize’ them must be surreal at best, unsettling at worst. I mean at the risk of sounding insensitive, imagine some Yemini grandfather years down the line discovering their grandkids are into buying model kits of drones and you can see why it might come across as a somewhat ghoulish. I also severely doubt the assurance that some of the products are former or current symbols of national pride would impress Tomino. I’d be curious to hear his thoughts on the Yamato franchise. Obviously, everyone in this forum will be going on about his political hot takes, if you even call them that, but the secret bigger story in the article is that Tomino actually liked another anime. I don’t think I’ve heard him so sincerely praise something in decades. Even his comments about Miyazaka films often came across as backhanded compliments. Well, that’s something to put on the cover of In This Corner of the World’s director’s cut, when it eventually gets released on BD. “A film so good that even Tomino liked it” |
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Beatdigga
 Posts: 4367 Location: New York |
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This is an argument that has existed as long as fictional war has been portrayed. Toy water guns, laser tag, and in this case, mock battles with cute girls. Panzer is a great example. It’s about things that should be weapons of war used for games and appreciating the technical aspect, but can you ever divorce it from the true intention of the weapons? That’s the question and one that we probably don’t have the answer to.
Tomino treats war in a toy based franchise the same way Larry Hama did GI Joe comics. Sure the tech is cool, but never, ever forget the purpose. |
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Sakura Shinguji
Posts: 190 |
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Tomino will never miss a chance to passive-aggressively wax philosophical about how war is thematically addressed the "wrong" way in anime and manga with the astonishing exception of titles he has worked on.
And, setting aside the merits or lack thereof in other titles, Tomino's track record of addressing such themes in his own projects, be it Gundam or anything else, has been largely hamfisted at best and distressingly off the mark at worst. Even limiting it to Gundam, it's interesting to note how so many of the installments that he did not have a role in (beyond the required vanity credit at the beginning of the opening) have done a much better job at addressing a variety of themes, including war, than titles that Tomino has helmed. But, I guess, those clouds won't yell at themselves. |
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CrownKlown
 Posts: 1762 |
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I think those who have issues have missed the point. He is basically making the argument that Miyazaki did in wind rises . Ie can you appreciate the technical skill of something designed to kill or as a weapon. Like the point isn't oh well gup is using tanks for sports it's a question of should they .
I think thiI'm a little surprised stuff like strike witches wasn't mentioned . That's basically trying to make war cute with cute girls. |
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Sakura Shinguji
Posts: 190 |
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Maybe we shouldn't get too excited. He can always say he was misquoted. 
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TexZero
Posts: 583 |
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Outside of the Build and SD series most gundam has the war is bad message emblazoned across it. 08th MS team shows that war effects everyone from kids to innocents who village just happens to become a battlefield. IBO shows how the conflict is often started by Old Men doing stupid stuff only for Women and Kids to suffer the human cost. Thunderbolt showcases the horrible mental states soliders and their significant others suffer through. Etc...Point is Gundam has always had an anti-war/conflict message you just have to be willing to not get lost in the spectacle. |
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John the Dark Lord
Posts: 232 |
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First and foremost, Tomino sold his rights to the Gundam franchise after Victory Gundam, so he is not receiving that money. Second, you are talking about the guy who hated having to make Gundam more marketable so much he said that the true enemies of Gundam are Sunrise, sponsors and television stations in a interview made 10 years after the original Gundam aired. |
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kae kurono
 Posts: 102 |
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Man i tell you what this is why i love this website no one else is reporting these thought-provoking interviews or comments by legends like Tomino & Yasuhiko that also always create these thought-provoking discussions & debates in the forum. I'm just saying no other anime website has reported this yet (sometimes no other website rarely ever reports what tomino says in general its pretty annoying).
Anyway i love these discussions here on ann i always gain some new form of insight on the anime industry. I should sub lol Keep up the awesome work ann staff without your website their wouldn't be very many comments tomino has made reported in the western anime news world. This is one of the reasons why I've been a fan of this website for a long time. Thank you. |
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Heishi
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You what I’d like to see in an anime? Cute girls doing with other cute girls. Whether it is in the style of Saving Private Ryan or something more ancient like Kingdom of Heaven would make for an exciting watch! |
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kae kurono
Posts: 102 |
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Yeah that's very much the exact vibe i get from common anime fans who never seen a gundam series before, i don't get where most anime fans in the west could come to such a odd conclusion about the franchise. Its a sentiment connected with the "i don't like mecha anime but" or the "i like these mecha shows because their not about robots like gundam a.i. ether code geass or eva" it's a ridiculous and frustrating stereotype about the genre i blame the parent company & bandai for this. |
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Banjo
Posts: 779 |
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entertainment shouldn't be used to send serious real life messages.. fans want fun and cool stuff, so even war stories will eventually turn into fun/cool mecha/fan service etc to satisfy those fans..
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