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REVIEW: Is It Wrong to Try to Pick Up Girls in a Dungeon? 2 BR


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Amuro1X



Joined: 02 Sep 2009
Posts: 30
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:05 pm Reply with quote
I really disagree with the so called "cop-out" in the sense that it's NOT a cop out. Spoilers below for those that haven't seen it.

spoiler[For one thing, Bell and more importantly, Haruhime's feelings are not invalidated by the reveal that Haruhime never actually did the deed. In the anime adaptation, Aisha never even tells either of the two, and to her point, they had already moved past that and it no longer mattered to them. Something I personally like about the reveal is that it means poor Haruhime was never actually raped, because lets face it, she wasn't a willing prostitute to begin with and Aisha was constantly looking out for her. At the end of the day, the lesson that Bell learned was that what a person has done in the past or whether they think they're unworthy of being saved doesn't matter. What's important is that individuals desire. If you reach out a hand and ask for help, Bell will be there to grab it, which is why I love his character so much. He struggled with deciding to rescue Haruhime this season not just because she was a prostitute and considered herself unworthy, but also because saving her and stealing her away from Ishtar would put that entire familia in conflict with his own. At the end of the day, he couldn't leave her and managed to break through to her in the process. It's not about whether she's pure or not. Something that we see when Bell continues to work with and associate with Aisha after this arc. She's not shamed for her CHOSEN profession as a sex worker. She adventures, she's sexually active, and she cares about Haruhime like a little sister. She's a great character, imo.]
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Key
Moderator


Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 16362
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:06 pm Reply with quote
^
Yes, I understand the points you're making (and to an extent agree with them), but I've had this argument a couple of times before and still fall on the side of it being a cop-out. It would have had more impact if the reveal hadn't been done, and honestly, spoiler[it's a pretty blatant play-up to otaku who want their favorite "waifus" to be pure.]
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Amuro1X



Joined: 02 Sep 2009
Posts: 30
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:24 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
^
Yes, I understand the points you're making (and to an extent agree with them), but I've had this argument a couple of times before and still fall on the side of it being a cop-out. It would have had more impact if the reveal hadn't been done, and honestly, spoiler[it's a pretty blatant play-up to otaku who want their favorite "waifus" to be pure.]


I understand. I'm not saying you're wrong or that it wasn't done for that reason, either. I just don't agree that it ruins or even lessens the impact of what came before. I mean, we can assume it was done to appease a certain demographic from a meta-textual standpoint, but from a textual standpoint it does more for Aisha's character. It even brings up an interesting dichotomy for her character now that I think about it spoiler[in that she protected Haruhime from being raped, but had no problem forcing herself on a man.]
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Ultimate N



Joined: 13 Mar 2018
Posts: 52
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:53 pm Reply with quote
Quick Question, did they include an English dub for the OVA? I haven't seen anyone confirm if it was and I feel like it would be kind of a waste not to dub it especially considering they dubbed not only the movie but also released the one OVA in its own separate release.
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Engineering Nerd



Joined: 24 Apr 2008
Posts: 780
Location: Southern California
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:53 pm Reply with quote
I am a bit curious, maybe I am giving too much credit to the fanservice OVA, but besides otaku pandering, isn’t the end of OVA basically gave us a tease of what Bell would endure in the third season? (Of course, in the form of fortune-telling dream and yeah, the execution leaves A LOT to be desired)
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FilthyCasual



Joined: 01 Jun 2015
Posts: 1446
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:58 pm Reply with quote
Engineering Nerd wrote:
I am a bit curious, maybe I am giving too much credit to the fanservice OVA, but besides otaku pandering, isn’t the end of OVA basically gave us a tease of what Bell would endure in the third season? (Of course, in the form of fortune-telling dream and yeah, the execution leaves A LOT to be desired)
It did somewhat.

More importantly it was a loony fever dream that honestly amused me. RIP most of Volume 8, I can't deny that I'd have preferred to see it instead.
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Tanteikingdomkey



Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 2072
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:00 pm Reply with quote
I am sorry but when there are more rapes (or rape attempts) then the episode count I really disagree with refusing to even engage with it. I am not saying the season 2 review of dan machi needs to be all about it... BUT when you make Forced sex work and Rape the primary thing the story is centered around, even for one book out of 20+. You need to say something about it, as is I find it worse in this series then how the subject is handled in SAO.

I am not saying the reviewer is wrong or people shouldn't like those episodes necessarily. But the series go from very occasionally hey I might really screw someone up somehow being said by an enemy to Bell and other guys constantly get jokes made about how they will be raped, Forced sex workers wanting to die because of sex work, Explicate rape and I am sorry but I can't deal with the 10 to 75 MPH acceleration here.

And I am sorry but the cop out (yes it is, even if not in the story) is really insulting to me.

One problem I have with the review itself "she does not hesitate to overwhelm even the schemer Hermes with sex" Should really be "she does not hesitate to RAPE Hermes to get what she wants from him" since she does actively rape him and he acts like any other rape victim.
I have a similar problem with the phrasing around bells incident but that is more accurate even if it comes across to me as casually delegitimizing rape towards males. As if you need to be a naïve innocent boy to be freaked out by being surrounded and loomed over by a group telling you they commonly kidnap and rape people, after begging them for a long time to let them go (because they are physically overpowering you) and saying I do not want this.

To me as someone who has dealt with it, it comes off as crass and insensitive.


Last edited by Tanteikingdomkey on Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:27 am; edited 2 times in total
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Morry



Joined: 26 Jun 2016
Posts: 713
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:37 pm Reply with quote
My only issue with the "reveal" was that it lessened the impact of the underlying message. Total taking your cake and eating it too.
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 4640
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:58 am Reply with quote
Every time I see these arguments about a message, I think, what if there isn't any real message at all. What if the writers, never intended for there to be any deep underlying message. That all the situations and events we are deconstructing are merely there for the drama and the story to get you invested into the characters.

I love anime, but I think we give it too much credit sometimes. Look at our own TV shows, unless it wears it on its arm, "This is a Message Show", many of our shows are just entertainment.
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Seagloom



Joined: 04 Nov 2017
Posts: 134
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:28 am Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
Every time I see these arguments about a message, I think, what if there isn't any real message at all. What if the writers, never intended for there to be any deep underlying message. That all the situations and events we are deconstructing are merely there for the drama and the story to get you invested into the characters.


There can be a message even where a message was not necessarily intended. The way a story is presented can still express support of an ideological viewpoint. Even an author throwing something in for narrative expediency or style says something. It is impossible to write in a vacuum.

Take the endless tidal wave of samey isekai light novel, for example. Most of these are written by inexperienced authors that barely understand how to structure a story or do any research. They literally come up with a gimmick then follow a popular template. That does not stop what they are writing from conveying a message; and it still says something about them regardless of their personal views.
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Animegomaniac



Joined: 16 Feb 2012
Posts: 3540
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:01 am Reply with quote
I've come to the conclusion that I just watch Dan Machi for Ryu Lion and I just ignore the rest of it.

Season 2 has a good bit with Ryu Lion therefore season 2 did not waste my time. The rest of it? Stuff happened than was not related to a waitress warrior elf so it could have been anything.
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 4640
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:46 pm Reply with quote
Seagloom wrote:

There can be a message even where a message was not necessarily intended. The way a story is presented can still express support of an ideological viewpoint. Even an author throwing something in for narrative expediency or style says something. It is impossible to write in a vacuum.


I'll have to disagree. A message is something clearly being communicated by the writers or directors. It is intended. That is why some movies or TV shows are called message movies or shows. Just because some movies or shows have themes, doesn't mean they are messages.
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Tanteikingdomkey



Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 2072
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:54 pm Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
Seagloom wrote:

There can be a message even where a message was not necessarily intended. The way a story is presented can still express support of an ideological viewpoint. Even an author throwing something in for narrative expediency or style says something. It is impossible to write in a vacuum.


I'll have to disagree. A message is something clearly being communicated by the writers or directors. It is intended. That is why some movies or TV shows are called message movies or shows. Just because some movies or shows have themes, doesn't mean they are messages.

I see what you are talking about. Not entirely sure I agree but it is an interesting one.

Personally I would argue if you are going to have a theme of sexual slavery and rape, outside of porn for the sake of porn (even then uhhh) you really should have some message to go along with it.
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Seagloom



Joined: 04 Nov 2017
Posts: 134
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:48 am Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:

I'll have to disagree. A message is something clearly being communicated by the writers or directors. It is intended. That is why some movies or TV shows are called message movies or shows. Just because some movies or shows have themes, doesn't mean they are messages.


The lack of an intended message does not preclude a message being conveyed, however. A person will interpret a story however they see fit. More so if an author is going to dabble in themes that invite scrutiny. Themes do not prevent inference. No one is going to care if a writer or director claims to have nothing to say if they blithely choose to explore controversial themes and imagery.
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Alan45
Village ElderVillage Elder


Joined: 25 Aug 2010
Posts: 8803
Location: Virginia
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:34 am Reply with quote
Seagloom wrote:
Quote:
A person will interpret a story however they see fit.


Yes, but the validity of that interpretation is limited to the person making it. Everyone else is entitled to their own interpretation or none at all if they don't see a deeper meaning.
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