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EP. REVIEW: Talentless Nana


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:14 pm Reply with quote
Yeah, Michiru had enough death flags that I wasn't surprised at all that she didn't survive. That didn't make the way things played out any less cathartic, however.

I have been more impressed with this series than I expected to be, and Nana would be among my favorite characters for the year because of it.
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Agent355



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:03 am Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
Agent355 wrote:
.
She is a minor. We generally don’t hold children accountable for crimes to the same extent as adults, including child soldiers and terrorists who were brainwashed to kill innocents. I know that in the US, convicts under 18 are never considered for the death penalty or even life in prison (a more recent change), even when charged with violent crimes or murder and tried as adults..

You are generally right, but when it comes to crimes like this, we do hold them accountable. You can bet if the Columbine shooters were caught alive, they would be serving life sentences too. Child soldiers is not a U.S. problem, and I think if a teenage terrorist had a multiple body count, they would be in prison for life too.


I looked up juvenile sentencing to make sure I was getting the facts right, and you’re right; the US still allows states to impose life without parole sentences on minors. It’s important to note that it is the only country that currently has people serving life sentences for crimes committed as minors and is one of only 13 countries that allows such sentences at all:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment
Quote:

Few countries allow for a minor to be given a lifetime sentence with no provision for eventual release; these include Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina (only over the age of 16),[4]Australia, Belize, Brunei, Cuba, Dominica, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, the Solomon Islands, Sri Lanka, and the United States. According to a University of San Francisco School of Law study, only the U.S. had minors serving such sentences in 2008.[5]In 2009, Human Rights Watch estimated that there were 2,589 youth offenders serving life sentences without the possibility for parole in the U.S.[6][7] The United States leads in life sentences (both adults and minors), at a rate of 50 people per 100,000 (1 out of 2,000) residents imprisoned for life.[8]


TarsTarkas wrote:
I have no problems with stories that feature a villain and their life story. There is no problem even with sympathizing with them. Even in real life, a lot of bad people, had bad lives growing up, and had to make hard choices. But in real life, forgiveness comes from the victim's or their families, not the courts. When it comes to serial killings or serial assassinations, however you want to frame it, there is no room for sympathizing on judgement day. There are too many family and friends that want their pound of flesh for the killing of their loved ones.

This is not real life, but if they are framing it as a redemptive story, (no problem with that at all), it is a personal redemption, not a redemption from society. The proper course of such a story, is for the killer or former evil one, to save their victims and/or destroy the organization that turned them to evil. Usually with them dying in the process. This comes with a proper denouncement and a dying redemption. But in cases where the former evil one survives, they spend the rest of their life, hunting the remnants of the evil organization till they die. They are not supposed to have a happy end, nor be part of society.

I am curious on what the writers have planned, you may get what you want, but personally, I would view it as a failure. When villains get happy ends, I view it as a betrayal of their victims.


I hear you. There are certainly characters that I personally feel don’t deserve sympathy or redemption, even when the narrative seems to be on their side. In this series I personally see Nana as being used and brainwashed into killing people by adults more powerful than her, and I think a realization that she’s been on the wrong side could be the impetus for her to completely change course in an emotionally satisfying way. Michiru’s death (inevitable, but heartbreaking) will probably be the spark that changes Nana. If that makes some viewers want to rage quit the series, I get it. That’s pretty much how I felt about Lelouch in Code Geass spoiler[Yes, he dies at the end, but he was portrayed too sympathetically for my taste.]. I think Talentless Nana’s narrative wants the viewer to be on Nana’s side, though, so one’s enjoyment of the series will hinder on whether they can sympathize with Nana despite the assassinations she’s carried out.
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TarsTarkas



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:37 am Reply with quote
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I think she also would have helped Nana absolve herself of her guilt and crimes.


This is the most dangerous comment made in the review. Killers can't absolve themselves of their crimes. Forgiveness and/or absolution must come from the victims and their families. (though supposedly you can get it from your religion too). Yes, Nana had a lot of extenuating factors, and was played. But that only takes you so far. Nana knowingly killed innocent people, whose only crime was having power. No matter what lies she was told, she knew this. Following orders is not an excuse, at least that is what society has been telling us since World War II.

If Nana was arrested and found guilty of all the murders in real life, (naturally, she would be disavowed), expressing support for Nana would definitely not be a popular thing.

Nana no longer has a place in civil society. Her victims do matter. All that is left for her is the revenge road. Punish those that destroyed her life, and if possible make amends with her victims's families.

I am not anti-Nana, I can and do sympathize. She can have a personal redemption, where she acknowledges her evil actions and seeks to make amends. But absolution and forgiveness is not hers to claim. I would definitely watch a Nana "revenge road" anime sequel, where she takes out her former masters and peers, all the while agonizing over her victims, and making amends where she can.

The anime chickened out on the ending, basically leaving it open ended.
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Cryten



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:34 am Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
The anime chickened out on the ending, basically leaving it open ended.


I have theorised in the this week in anime column's take on Talentless Nana that the series will need to do something to continue satisfying the fans of complicated twisted murders. Unless the series take quite a different narrative turn. It could be a simple manner of Nana being victimised by her former backers or her fully turning on them and any extra plots they have going in the island or where ever the show moves to.
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Anneyuno1



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:39 pm Reply with quote
@TarsTarkas I wonder, when a king orders an execution, does one have to attack the executioner guy? Nana's job is like an executioner of the government service, she is not to blame because it is her job, those boys were already sentenced to death by superior orders
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Cryten



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:30 pm Reply with quote
Its really odd to compare Nana to an executioner. An executioner has the law and public support on their side, which lets them do their executions in the public eye. An Assassin is someone who operates as killer based on a code of ethics, whether personal, from business or from culture groups but in the shadows of society. That suits Nana's character far more.

Though she had the conviction of a zealot in the beginning, refusing to consider herself unjust no matter what she saw in the school. So you could argue that she was a fanatical murderer instead of assassin. But I think she has had training in killing. Assassin is far better. Neither her government nor society recognises her doing a job.

To give it another media's point of view, Jame Bond was a Government Assasin not executioner. While he was employed by the government and trained to kill for them. He received no public recognition and no support should he fall afoul of the public.
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TarsTarkas



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:50 pm Reply with quote
Anneyuno1 wrote:
@TarsTarkas I wonder, when a king orders an execution, does one have to attack the executioner guy? Nana's job is like an executioner of the government service, she is not to blame because it is her job, those boys were already sentenced to death by superior orders


Nana is an assassin for the government. Her actions and her government's actions are kept secret from the public for obvious reasons. If she was killed, arrested, or captured she would be 'disavowed'.

Nana's actions and her governments actions have more in common with Nazi Germany, than our modern justice institutions. You could make the argument that Nana was participating in genocide against those with super powers.

Nazi concentration camp guards were following orders too. They were also held accountable for their actions. Following orders is not an excuse. Even if not following orders could lead to your own execution or imprisonment.
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Anneyuno1



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:54 pm Reply with quote
Cryten wrote:
Its really odd to compare Nana to an executioner. An executioner has the law and public support on their side, which lets them do their executions in the public eye. An Assassin is someone who operates as killer based on a code of ethics, whether personal, from business or from culture groups but in the shadows of society. That suits Nana's character far more.

Though she had the conviction of a zealot in the beginning, refusing to consider herself unjust no matter what she saw in the school. So you could argue that she was a fanatical murderer instead of assassin. But I think she has had training in killing. Assassin is far better. Neither her government nor society recognises her doing a job.

To give it another media's point of view, Jame Bond was a Government Assasin not executioner. While he was employed by the government and trained to kill for them. He received no public recognition and no support should he fall afoul of the public.


Whatever, Nana has the law and public support on their side the governments of that world made the decision that meta-humans should be executed The executions are not public because they want to avoid a new revolt of the meta-humans and instead they send assassins as a precaution (in fact in the anime they mention that as revenge one of the boys created a virus and and they had to disinfect the area with a nuclear bomb It is not so easy just to nuked the island with military aircrafts)
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Cryten



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:16 am Reply with quote
We dont yet know how much of that is propaganda fed to Nana to fanaticalise her. What we do know is that the killing are entirely secret and kept from society. Indications from the only outsiders we have seen in the story is that the villians presented to society is the made up enemies of mankind. She does not have the law or society on her side, otherwise the children would not have been tricked there by those who put Nana there. Their propaganda is that the gifted are the soldiers to fight the enemies of mankind remember. Even if that project failed before.

So I stand by my assessment that she does not have the support of the public.

Crucially we dont know how normal society works in this story outside of this being a gifted camp designed to kill the gifted. It is an isolated island story where point of view matters more then detailed background. As such I am willing to accept her as executioner if the show gives us a perspective of normal people trying to take part in the slaughter of the gifted. But Nana's own revelations about the children seem to indicate that it is not.
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