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TarsTarkas
 Posts: 5827 Location: Virginia, United States |
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I understand where you are coming from, and what you are trying to prevent, due to the subject matter. I mean if he just killed them all, we wouldn't be having this discussion. That said, all the restrictions, shades of restrictions, and the threat of perma ban, make any discussion a dicey and dangerous matter. Especially when it would be up to the interpretation of the mods, or those above. Considering that, is there any reason to have a discussion, that could be make some fall into hot water. |
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gloverrandal
Posts: 406 Location: Oita |
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How many This Week in Animes have there been since Moriarty the Patriot debuted where the writers gleefully praise, cheer, and encourage for the torture and murder of characters and hail the serial killer protagonist as the hero they in the real world could use in 2020? Approving multiple articles using words like "cathartic" at the sight of people who have better off lives than the writers being murdered in cold blood but putting a foot down on forum posters suggesting similar vigilante justice seems like a double standard, unless the staff are explicitly exempt from the rules. I would have posted this in the feedback forum but the thread for this was already locked. |
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Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10420 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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There are many subjects where people have to be careful with what they say. Every person old enough to post in this forum should understand that you regularly have to self-censor when discussing certain subjects. If you think certain races are superior to others, you don't bloody say it. Likewise, if you're happy someone was raped, you don't bloody say it. The chilling effect argument doesn't always apply. I made the warning very blatant because I wanted it to be clear that certain posts simply wouldn't be tolerated. The more serious the likely reaction to a rules transgression, the more important it is to be clear and warn people about the possibility of that serious reaction. I wanted to avoid any "but you didn't warn us," excuses. Bans are handed out by the admins, not the moderators, and we take the context into consideration. If a non-problem user crosses the line just slightly, they'll get a warning, not a ban. If a new user, or a problem user crosses the line significantly and blatantly, they'll be banned. If a problem user repeatedly crosses the line after numerous warnings, they'll be banned. ANN bans are handed out based on merit, not technicality. So, if you make a good-faith attempt to stay within the spirit of the rules, you have nothing to worry about. Last edited by Tempest on Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:07 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Tempest
I Run this place. ANN Publisher Posts: 10420 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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TWIA is written entirely from a viewer POV, not a critic POV. Yes, the writers are critics, but it's not a critical review. It's meant to be very much a discussion of their personal reactions to what they've seen. It's common place for viewers to be happy when despised characters are killed off. There's a line between, "I'm happy this character died," and "I think rape is fair punishment." I admit there are similarities between taking delight in fictional characters being harmed in various ways, but there is a difference, and that difference is where we have drawn the line. I'm pretty sure you probably understand the difference, so I don't need to define it for you. I respect that you may disagree with where we've drawn the line, but we have drawn it. If for some reason you wish to celebrate the rape of fictional characters, we're not stopping you, we're just telling you not to do it here.
TWIA is an article, not a forum post. The forum rules do not apply directly to articles, but in general we keep the same sensibilities. I would expect ANN's senior editors to fire any writer, whether they were staff or freelance, who suggested that rape was a legit form of punishment.
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Yttrbio
 Posts: 3652 |
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Tempest
I Run this place. ANN Publisher Posts: 10420 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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Yttrbio
Posts: 3652 |
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It's this one.
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Tempest
I Run this place. ANN Publisher Posts: 10420 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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To the best of my knowledge, there has only been the one. And at no point did they encourage torture, but they did indeed cheer the murders. The column itself doesn't say anything about the real world needing a Moriarty, but the title of the column might be interpreted that way. It was actually a reference to Batman The Dark Knight though. I can certainly see how the writers' reactions in this column might be uncomfortable for some, and yes, I can see it being measured on the same scale as one might measure comments about Redo the Hero. On that scale, the comments in TWIA might be a 7 (out of 10), while comments suggesting that rape is a good thing would be a 12. Somewhere between 7 and 12, we draw the line. The first and biggest difference of course, to paraphrase a popular expression, is "Punching up vs Punching Bag." Moriarty is a clear example of violence against oppressors. It's an extreme side to the "stand up versus oppression," trope; something our culture and our literature has frequently celebrated since antiquity, and continues to celebrate today. On the other hand, Redo the Hero is about violence against oppressed, certainly within the story they've been turned into oppressors, but in reality women have historically been and continue to be oppressed by men. The real world simply does not have a problem with rich people being oppressed by serial murderers. Whereas there is a real world problem with the oppression of women, and rape is the absolute worst example of that oppression. It's simply not acceptable to turn real-world abuse of oppressed classes into entertainment. Creating an anime that celebrates racism is no less unacceptable than creating an anime that celebrates child abuse or racism. The second difference is that one is about murder, the other is about rape. As a society, our legal systems often have a harsher punishment for the crime of murder, but many people will say that rape is the worse crime. And in Redo the Hero, the protagonist rapes his victims over and over again. I understand the discomfort with the topic, but celebrating women being repeatedly raped is much less acceptable than celebrating the murder of incredibly wealthy individuals. All this to say that, yes, I see the point about the TWIA column, it was borderline and I wasn't 100% comfortable with some of the comments in it myself (but as a publisher, I frequently disagree with things ANN's writers say, their job isn't to pander to me), but those comments are nothing like celebrating rape. I've discussed this with the editor in charge of the series, and they will keep the discomfort this column caused in mind in the future. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16935 |
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I would argue part of that comes down to the fallout from each crime. Murder does end a life, but in that context there is no lingering punishment or trauma for the victim. They're simply dead. I am not condoning nor excusing murder nor the severity of it. Nor the fallout family members and friends of the victim suffer from it. That being said, with rape the victim often continues to suffer themselves. It might be emotional, it might be physical as rape can happen over and over. With murder it's one and done to be blunt. The idea of power also comes into play more with rape, or sexual assault of any variety, than murder. This all doesn't even take into account the possibility of the victim becoming pregnant if they are female. I'm not trying to start a debate on this, but offer some context for those who might wonder why there might be a harder stance taken on the topic of rape over murder. Not to mention within our fandom there are plenty of example of characters who fight against an oppressive force, with methods including murder, and are seen as heroes of the show. There are no examples of that being the same for an MC who rapes people. We're not including hentai here btw. That should say something. |
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TarsTarkas
Posts: 5827 Location: Virginia, United States |
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This is what I was warning about. ANN can't handle this show. Now it is a criminal sin to talk about the popularity of this show. Any other show, there would not be any problem with talk about how popular or not popular a show was, unless that talk became uncivil. Note the tone taken and the blatant name outing from the mod. The reality is the mod and others have a visceral disgust for this show, and probably will not handle any hint or degree of disagreement of their opinions on it very well. All discussion on Redo of Healer should be shut down. The popularity issue was not part of the rules that were laid down by Tempest. As seemingly framed by octopodpie, there can't be any discussion of the show, that casts even a little bit of light on it. If the posters aren't dragging the show through the mud, they can be rapped alongside the head and be told you are doing it wrong. I understand Tempest's and Octopodpie's opinions on the show. It is quite understandable. But if ANN is going to knock heads, because the discussion is not an echo chamber, then their shouldn't be any 'discussion'. It is not fair to posters who like the show, and others who might have slightly differing opinions on it, to be baited like that. |
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Tempest
I Run this place. ANN Publisher Posts: 10420 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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I believe the moderators handled this situation quite well; moving the discussion about it's popularity to the appropriate thread and allowing it to continue there.
I understand where you're coming from, but the same could be said of almost any topic; "You can talk about this, but there are certain things you can't say here." As an absolute policy, I am not, under any circumstance going to ban discussion of any title. Telling people that they may not glorify rape while discussing Redo is similar to telling them that they may not glorify the Holocaust while discussing Mein Kampf. You may discuss anime with racist themes on ANN, but if you make pro-racism statements you can expect to be banned; you may discuss anime with rape themes on ANN, but if you make pro-rape statements you can expect to be banned. As I said, I understand your point of view, I have considered it, and I have made a decision that I am comfortable with. -t |
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TarsTarkas
Posts: 5827 Location: Virginia, United States |
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I'll have to disagree with you about the moderator handling it well. It could have been simply stated that discussing the popularity of the show, should be in the other thread. But that was not what was done. But that is spilled milk now.
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ANN_Lynzee
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 2945 Location: Email for assistance only |
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Perhaps it isn't/wasn't clear to TarsTarkas, but the context and participants in that conversation are important. The comments themselves were not related to an article about sales numbers or general series stats/information. They were brought up by Blanchimont, who had previously spent multiple posts in another thread arguing why the sexually inappropriate actions of a 34-year-old man in a child's body were normal, actually, because any other man in that scenario would definitely be sexually interested in a prepubescent girl.
The point and context of the sales numbers post was essentially the logical fallacy known as argumentum ad populum in order to be dismissive of the response to a series whose primary selling point is violent rape material. So I was pretty fed up with their "actually this fetish material is popular/normal routine" and was especially disappointed to see one of my writers, whose work I am responsible for, patting them on the back about it when he's aware of the previous conversations mentioned above as well as how it affects other staff members on the site and has knowledge of the content in Redo of Healer's first two episodes. It might be appealing to simply say I made it personal by inserting my experience into the argument, but I felt it was entirely necessary. Sexual violence in fiction does not exist in a vacuum and while it's often been popular to uptake the "the first one that feels something loses/my logic argument defeats yours," I find that kind of insensitivity about such a topic reprehensible. I have been extremely open (http://www.animeoriginstories.com/125-lynzee/) about my status as a survivor of sexual violence and was the primary author of ANN's new forum rules to make this a more inclusive environment and that includes the large number of people affected by this unfortunately common trauma. If it simply too difficult to discuss a show like Redo of Healer without attempting to normalize its content, that likely shows that there is little else to discuss to begin with in what is otherwise a mediocre animated hentai title for edgelords. |
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TarsTarkas
Posts: 5827 Location: Virginia, United States |
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Thanks for the added context. Sorry for not seeing that, and making this necessary.
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ANN_Lynzee
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 2945 Location: Email for assistance only |
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No harm, no foul.
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