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This Week in Games - That's Not Very Cyberpunk of You


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AiddonValentine



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 1880
PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:56 pm Reply with quote
ATastySub wrote:

You're saying all this but missing the actual point you're making. All those games you listed that are doing well now? They improved because people pointed out how they were failures. If everyone had just sat back and not said anything nothing would've changed. FF14 was a disaster and the path it took to re-make it is a notable success story because they admitted how badly they fucked up and let someone else take over. No Man's Sky was a victim of shady marketing and hype that was outside of their control, along with a forced release date. Cyberpunk is neither of these. They controlled their own marketing and release. The people in charge of fixing it are the same ones that caused this problem and are saying the same platitudes they did in making it. Calling a trash fire a trash fire is not some delusional short sighted scheme, it's stating the obvious. Looking away from the fire and telling people it doesn't exist because you aren't looking at isn't a virtue. It's a lack of object permanence, and I'll let you draw your own conclusions based on what else lacks that due to their own inexperience with reality.


Yeah, plus trying to blame it on the last-gen hardware is asinine; the last transition had nothing on this level and the PS3 and 360 versions of games ran fine. Plus the thing about games like No Man's Sky and FFXIV is those games, by their very nature, were meant to be enjoyed for years on end due to content updates or expansions. Cyberpunk is not one of those, it's a narrative experience meant to be enjoyed for a few dozen hours and maybe a couple replays. And even IF it gets improved through patches it still doesn't make it a must-get when I can wait a few months for a sale and enjoy other games right now that aren't nigh-unplayable trashfires.
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Tenchi



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
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Location: Ottawa... now I'm an ex-Anglo Montrealer.
PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:47 pm Reply with quote
CommonHorse wrote:
People forget that this was the same case for the transition between the PS3/360 era to PS4/Xbox One with some titles like GTA 5 and Battlefield 3 hitting those low frames and looking ugly as hell.


I didn't get Grand Theft Auto V for XBox 360 until it was on the bargain racks at Walmart so I missed whatever issues it would have had at launch. Once patched, it was one of the top-tier 7th generation games, and I still think the graphics look fine for an XBox 360 game and whatever slowdown there might be for intense action sequences is pretty par for the course for a sandbox game on a 7th generation console.

I don't deny the 8th generation console version of Grand Theft Auto V looks better (the thing that most impresses me in 8th gen GTA V videos I watch, mainly on the FailRace channel, is the density of trees in the forests compared to the XBox 360 version) but the only reason I'd buy GTA V again would be solely for GTA Online, and, any time a FailRace video makes GTA Online seem like something I'd enjoy playing, I remember that he has his own private lobby and doesn't have to deal with overpowered griefers as a level 1 character like I would (plus I have zero desire to pay real world money for Shark cards).
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CommonHorse



Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 10
PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:50 pm Reply with quote
OtherSideofSky wrote:
CommonHorse wrote:
glitches and bugs which will be gone in time.

I hate when people make this argument, as if all major bugs inevitably get ironed out. It's simply not true. A lot of bugs get fixed, but never all, and there are plenty of games with bugs so deeply embedded that even fan years of fan patches can't eliminate them.
You mentioned New Vegas. Well, New Vegas with years worth of official and fan patches can still easily bug quests into incompletability. I've never done a remotely thorough playthrough without needing to quick load or use a save editor to compensate for triggers that simply failed to work. And that's a game that got extensive support. Plenty of games don't, even ones from major publishers. Any kind of completion-blocker or save-corruption bug is a huge deal (especially for anyone on console, where you often can't it without a complete restart) and absolutely deserves to be included in criticism.

No opinion on Cyberpunk as a game, since I haven't played it yet and don't plan to for a while, but I don't like people pretending that performance on high-end systems (which everyone I personally know with an up-to-date gaming PC has still been complaining about) excuses the awful state of the last-gen ports. The game was announced, and accepted preorders for, those platforms years before the current gen consoles (and before the PC hardware most people running it well are using). The game was also originally stated to release months before both the new consoles and this year's batch of GPUs. Cancelling those versions to focus exclusively on high-end hardware would be one thing, but dumping an unplayable on people is inexcusable. (And there's no way this refund and delisting situation would be happening if it wasn't unplayable. These are the people who will still gladly sell you the PS3 port of Shadow of Mordor.)

Anyway, wicked excited for Dungeon Fighter Duel.


At the time, Bethesda only gave Obsidian 18 months to make the game (not to mention they were ill equipped/set up for failure basically from the start). On top of this, the engine they used/are using to this day seemingly in its nature is just prone to hosting bugs and glitches. Time and time again, Bethesda is infamous for not fixing their titles altogether before leaving it to fans/modders to fix things for them. It's not a surprise that outside the DLCs, they basically cut off support from Obsidian in giving them the manpower to fix the game. I'd say there is more riding on CDPR to fix Cyberpunk at this point which is evident by the fact that they've released a patch every single week since launch. They promptly fixed Witcher 3/redid Geralt's movement animation and will hopefully work the same magic here. Of course, no game will have all the bugs squashed. I'd argue that just because Cyberpunk was announced for the previous generation doesn't mean that the final product should be held back from meeting its true potential. I already mentioned Witcher 3 being handicapped so it would be a shame if the same fate awaited Cyberpunk. I'm not excusing CDPR because I believe they should had delayed the game if not canceled/warned about the base releases. However, the base of the game which is Witcher 3 in a Cyberpunk setting is all there. The characters, the writing, the story has a lot of heart and soul and it'd be such a shame we all just looked past this because of the problems plaguing the base consoles.
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hooliganj



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:56 am Reply with quote
ATastySub wrote:
You're saying all this but missing the actual point you're making. All those games you listed that are doing well now? They improved because people pointed out how they were failures. If everyone had just sat back and not said anything nothing would've changed. FF14 was a disaster and the path it took to re-make it is a notable success story because they admitted how badly they fucked up and let someone else take over. No Man's Sky was a victim of shady marketing and hype that was outside of their control, along with a forced release date. Cyberpunk is neither of these. They controlled their own marketing and release. The people in charge of fixing it are the same ones that caused this problem and are saying the same platitudes they did in making it. Calling a trash fire a trash fire is not some delusional short sighted scheme, it's stating the obvious. Looking away from the fire and telling people it doesn't exist because you aren't looking at isn't a virtue. It's a lack of object permanence, and I'll let you draw your own conclusions based on what else lacks that due to their own inexperience with reality.

My point was that CDPR has openly and often admitted to the problems, and pledged time, money and staff to fix the issues, and for anyone to whom this isn't good enough they've offered a full refund.

But apparently that's not enough. Judging by the general tone of the press coverage and the reactions all over the internet (including here), they need to be crushed to less than dust so that such impurity might never dirty the sacred halls of video games ever again.

Nobody is looking away from the problem, or asking anyone else to ignore what was obviously a seriously flawed release. But the tune being sung isn't one of reparation or eventual forgiveness, instead it's revenge and purging with fire.

Obviously the game needs fixing. They're gonna fix it. What else can they possibly do? For anyone who didn't buy the game, why do you care? For anyone who did buy it but regrets it, why not just go get your money back?

Basically my problem is that this has gone beyond asking a company to fix it's game, and turned into a hate parade. And that's disturbing.
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ATastySub
ANN Reviewer


Joined: 19 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:39 am Reply with quote
hooliganj wrote:
ATastySub wrote:
You're saying all this but missing the actual point you're making. All those games you listed that are doing well now? They improved because people pointed out how they were failures. If everyone had just sat back and not said anything nothing would've changed. FF14 was a disaster and the path it took to re-make it is a notable success story because they admitted how badly they fucked up and let someone else take over. No Man's Sky was a victim of shady marketing and hype that was outside of their control, along with a forced release date. Cyberpunk is neither of these. They controlled their own marketing and release. The people in charge of fixing it are the same ones that caused this problem and are saying the same platitudes they did in making it. Calling a trash fire a trash fire is not some delusional short sighted scheme, it's stating the obvious. Looking away from the fire and telling people it doesn't exist because you aren't looking at isn't a virtue. It's a lack of object permanence, and I'll let you draw your own conclusions based on what else lacks that due to their own inexperience with reality.

My point was that CDPR has openly and often admitted to the problems, and pledged time, money and staff to fix the issues, and for anyone to whom this isn't good enough they've offered a full refund.

But apparently that's not enough. Judging by the general tone of the press coverage and the reactions all over the internet (including here), they need to be crushed to less than dust so that such impurity might never dirty the sacred halls of video games ever again.

Nobody is looking away from the problem, or asking anyone else to ignore what was obviously a seriously flawed release. But the tune being sung isn't one of reparation or eventual forgiveness, instead it's revenge and purging with fire.

Obviously the game needs fixing. They're gonna fix it. What else can they possibly do? For anyone who didn't buy the game, why do you care? For anyone who did buy it but regrets it, why not just go get your money back?

Basically my problem is that this has gone beyond asking a company to fix it's game, and turned into a hate parade. And that's disturbing.

They can not do horrible business practices and then paper over it with a band-aid statement. That's the point. Cyberpunk was a creation of horrible management, horrific crunch, and misleading marketing. It is a very clear example of nearly all the problems of the modern game industry. People are rightfully calling that out, and trying really hard to get through to people like you about why it's not acceptable to simply go "they'll fix it later what's the problem?" If you see people pointing out why a broken system tried to sell a broken product and think the problem is that people are questioning why such a thing is allowed then you really need to re-read and re-evaluate what people are actually saying and why.
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DavetheUsher



Joined: 19 May 2014
Posts: 469
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:09 am Reply with quote
hooliganj wrote:
Basically my problem is that this has gone beyond asking a company to fix it's game, and turned into a hate parade. And that's disturbing.


The game has been the top seller on Steam for the past 6 weeks, 3 of those post launch so they can't be handwaved away as unassuming pre-orders. Gamers clearly like it and are enjoying it. I think that's all that should matter in the end. Sure, there's certain outlets and personalities in the industry that openly hate CDPR and will ride this grift for as long as they can, but money and sales are what matter at the end of the day, y'know?
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hooliganj



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:16 pm Reply with quote
ATastySub wrote:
They can not do horrible business practices and then paper over it with a band-aid statement. That's the point. Cyberpunk was a creation of horrible management, horrific crunch, and misleading marketing. It is a very clear example of nearly all the problems of the modern game industry. People are rightfully calling that out, and trying really hard to get through to people like you about why it's not acceptable to simply go "they'll fix it later what's the problem?" If you see people pointing out why a broken system tried to sell a broken product and think the problem is that people are questioning why such a thing is allowed then you really need to re-read and re-evaluate what people are actually saying and why.

Clearly the nuanced argument isn't going to work here. I can't compete with the self-righteousness of a crusader riding out to battle for the sake of the people.

Just keep in mind that the "broken system" you're trying to fix is capitalism, and the villain you're trying to justify throwing under the bus is actually a relatively small developer from an Eastern-bloc country.

If you're goal really is to fix the big-picture system, don't spend your money on things you don't really need, and don't vote for politicians that prop up big companies with credit loans and bailouts.


{Mod edit} I edited your post and removed another. It's rather disingenuous, and downright hypocritical, of you to complain about personal attacks while making multiple ones against specific people and the member base here as whole in your own posts. So I suggest you stop it. ~ Pyscho 101
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AiddonValentine



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 1880
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:09 pm Reply with quote
hooliganj wrote:
ATastySub wrote:
They can not do horrible business practices and then paper over it with a band-aid statement. That's the point. Cyberpunk was a creation of horrible management, horrific crunch, and misleading marketing. It is a very clear example of nearly all the problems of the modern game industry. People are rightfully calling that out, and trying really hard to get through to people like you about why it's not acceptable to simply go "they'll fix it later what's the problem?" If you see people pointing out why a broken system tried to sell a broken product and think the problem is that people are questioning why such a thing is allowed then you really need to re-read and re-evaluate what people are actually saying and why.

Clearly the nuanced argument isn't going to work here. I can't compete with the self-righteousness of a crusader riding out to battle for the sake of the people.

Just keep in mind that the "broken system" you're trying to fix is capitalism, and the villain you're trying to justify throwing under the bus is actually a relatively small developer from an Eastern-bloc country.

If you're goal really is to fix the big-picture system, don't spend your money on things you don't really need, and don't vote for politicians that prop up big companies with credit loans and bailouts.

And since you seem to insist on driving each post to a personal attack at some point, a piece of advice: try to be more constructive in your criticism. It's better to define yourself by what you support rather than what you hate, and serious people are more likely to listen to you if you do.


CDPR has over a thousand employees, is publicly traded, and even owns a digital distribution platform in GOG. They are not even "relatively" small, their valuation is $8.1 billion. They are not some underdog, they're a company who screwed up a product and they do not need your defense.
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Yttrbio
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Joined: 09 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:49 pm Reply with quote
Last month:

Other People: There's no point in even bothering with other games, the only game anyone is going to be talking about is Cyberpunk

Me: That seems like an exaggeration. I mean, maybe it's good, but it doesn't seem like the kind of game that's so incredible it's going to suck all the oxygen out of the video game conversation.

Now:

Me: Oh, I guess I was wrong.
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insert name here



Joined: 27 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:21 pm Reply with quote
The real lesson here is stop preordering games.
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BadNewsBlues



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 4368
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:41 pm Reply with quote
Tenchi wrote:
I didn't get Grand Theft Auto V for XBox 360 until it was on the bargain racks at Walmart so I missed whatever issues it would have had at launch.


I got the game at launch and don’t recall any crippling bugs or anything then again I wasn’t extensively playing the game because of my issues at the time.

hooliganj wrote:
So it pains me that almost every time I check out the internet these days there's another article jumping on the shitposting bandwagon about how terrible the game is because it runs badly on the PS4. Acting as if I'm a terrible person who should feel terrible because I can both run the game and enjoy it.


You’re not a terrible person for running the game and enjoying it.

You are a terrible person if you’re doing stuff like going on Gamefaqs (which is a breeding ground for trolls) and telling people that they should just buy one of the next gen systems (which are presently hard to find) or buy a good PC to play it on which of course not everyone can afford. All the while trying to downplay or excuse the PS4 and Xbox 360 versions being put out as is.

Or a part of the minority of people weirdly attacking and criticizing reviewers or other gamers for pointing out legit flaws in the game.



hooliganj wrote:

As if CDPR hasn't already promised to spend the next 6 months to a year making it right for every platform. As if every game designed for next-gen hardware didn't avoid showing footage from older systems.


And yet even then most last gen versions of some games are entirely playable.

DavetheUsher wrote:


The game has been the top seller on Steam for the past 6 weeks, 3 of those post launch so they can't be handwaved away as unassuming pre-orders. Gamers clearly like it and are enjoying it. I think that's all that should matter in the end. Sure, there's certain outlets and personalities in the industry that openly hate CDPR and will ride this grift for as long as they can, but money and sales are what matter at the end of the day, y'know?


What outlets and personalities hate on CD Project Red outside of a small minority of Witcher fans that probably didn’t like some of the changes they made with the games or Ciri’s increased focus in 3?

Also putting out massively buggy glitchy games should never be the norm and when we have at least 3 studios who love doing this as it is.

Deacon Blues wrote:
So, all those haters out there really have themselves to thank. All those "reviewers" shitting on things didn't even wait for day one patches


Why does a modern game need a day one patch though in fact one of the biggest criticism of the industry today is the prevalence of day one patches. So good luck trying to get that over with most gamers.

hooliganj wrote:

I've been playing on the PS4 Pro and haven't encountered or been able to mimick any of the glaring issues that people have been supposedly harping about, and god damn it's the same ones... kinda strange.


Less strange when you realize the fact that just because you don’t have any technical or graphical problems when running a buggy game doesn’t mean that the game doesn’t have the problems a good number of people are experiencing. Even more so when general consensus is that while there are problems for both versions the game seems to be more likely to run into the problems on the original PS4.

This is the equivalent of arguing that because you didn’t catch salmonella eating a brand of lettuce that’s sickened or killed others who ate the same brand of lettuce that the concern over this is strange and suspect.
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Megiddo



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:52 am Reply with quote
Played PC version over various weeks and early on (before 1.02 in particular) I ran into a lot of T-posed models and had a couple of quests gltich out. Since 1.04 came out though my playthrough has been pretty damn solid, so I can only commend CDPR for doing in mere weeks what Bethesda hasn't done in dozens of years in actually going in to fix broken parts of their game on PC.

That said, there was a real lack of good quests in Cyberpunk. I hope the DLC will bring more stories in the vein of River/Peralezes/Sinnerman cause those were the standouts of the 'side' content. Having played Blood & Wine and Heart of Stone they should be able to do so.
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DavetheUsher



Joined: 19 May 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:01 am Reply with quote
BadNewsBlues wrote:
What outlets and personalities hate on CD Project Red outside of a small minority of Witcher fans that probably didn’t like some of the changes they made with the games or Ciri’s increased focus in 3?


Cyberpunk has become one of the poster children for the war against video game crunch, as well as various accusations of transphobia for over a year now. People have called to boycott it on principle since buying and playing it would be condoning either of those issues, and one or both of those issues usually get brought up in most articles about the game. You can tell they're not exactly the most liked company at places like Forbes or Polygon.

Quote:
Also putting out massively buggy glitchy games should never be the norm and when we have at least 3 studios who love doing this as it is.


Maybe, but it's already is the new norm. That's how the industry is now and has been ever since early access and day 1 patches became a thing. Buying and playing unfinished, broken games and waiting for the patches later or the day 1 60GB patch. Early access games like Phasmophobia can even win awards and Cyberpunk's massive success doesn't really show any signs of the industry changing anytime soon since consumers are eating these models up.
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Ryujin99



Joined: 21 Jul 2010
Posts: 123
PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:34 pm Reply with quote
DavetheUsher wrote:

Maybe, but it's already is the new norm. That's how the industry is now and has been ever since early access and day 1 patches became a thing. Buying and playing unfinished, broken games and waiting for the patches later or the day 1 60GB patch. Early access games like Phasmophobia can even win awards and Cyberpunk's massive success doesn't really show any signs of the industry changing anytime soon since consumers are eating these models up.


Throughout history many bad things have been norms at some point or another. Just because it's the norm doesn't mean that it's not bad, nor does it mean that we shouldn't challenge it. If bad norms went unchallenged, we'd still be living in stone age.

Edit: fixing a quote showing up wrong.
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Denys Lalande



Joined: 28 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:18 am Reply with quote
1) I played this game 30 years ago, when it was an R. Talsorian pen-and-paper RPG.

2) Pardon me as I LAUGH IN THE FACES of the video-gaming community -- in the immortal words of Loki: "Are you ever *not* going to fall for that?"
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