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EP. REVIEW: Horimiya


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Maidenoftheredhand



Joined: 21 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:44 pm Reply with quote
Princess_Irene wrote:
all-tsun-and-no-dere wrote:

As for whether this happens in the manga... yes, but like with the roleplay arc, there's a lot of other surrounding content where they're a happy, chill couple hanging out and having fun with their friends, so Hori's selfishness doesn't come across as nearly as toxic.


This is the problem with the anime adaptation in a nutshell - most, if not all, of the surrounding, slice-of-life content has been excised, and that was what gave us the context that their relationship isn't a bad one. Honestly, I would have liked an adaptation that covered maybe the first five volumes of the manga closely, leaving all of those little moments in.

Also, I want to apologize - I should have used the word "biphobic" not "homophobic" in the review. Words are important.


Agreed I would much rather of had a complete adaption up to when they got together instead of rushing through the manga and skipping so much of the content.

Like I said while there are still worthwhile parts in the second half of the manga I think the first half is the best part of the series and could easily have felt like a complete work if the adaption had just focused on the story of Hori and Miyamura falling in love.
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Cardcaptor Takato



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:48 pm Reply with quote
DuskyPredator wrote:


I was kind of into the possible hint at the start of the series where Miyamura maybe hinted at some bisexuality by answering that they are not a good fit in regards to a boy rather than saying that he is only interested in girls. But kind of feels like it has mostly been used as a joke against homosexuality.
I'm glad someone else brought this up because it's something I think has been lost in the discourse around this latest episode. I might be able to buy she was just being an ignorant insecure teen girl if this was an isolated moment but even before this latest episode the show made it a running gag where every time Miyamura showed affection to another guy the other classmates would start gossiping about it and Hori would make some comment about it being gross. At the time I didn't think much about it because the earlier episodes had a more laid back wholesome vibe to it and I appreciated the show was otherwise pretty casual and positive about Miyamura's sexuality that I wanted to give the show the benefit of the doubt. But now with this latest episode it does make me more suspicious of the author's intent. I will likely still keep watching the show but what makes it even more frustrating is the anime has apparently had no issues cutting out other parts of the manga including entire chapters but for some reason it was a conscious choice they made to leave this scene in the anime when they could have cut it out and there would be no discourse. Though right now I'm more frustrated with the Horimiya fandom and the way a lot of stans seems to be lashing out at anyone uncomfortable with this scene than I am the scene itself.
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harminia



Joined: 24 Aug 2015
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:17 pm Reply with quote
I haven't kept up with the anime so I don't know if they approached it in a different way to the manga, but when I read the manga I felt that Hori's actions were just toeing the line of biphobia. I didn't feel it ever stepped over that line, but it came very close to it. It could be that the translations I read made sure to lessen the language, I'm not sure. It could also be that I'm comparing this with anime/manga that go straight down the "ew gays" joke route and this is the lesser of two evils...

But for me, it felt like Hori's reactions were mostly just due to jealousy and the idea of anyone being with Miyamura beyond her as unappealing, rather than being biphobic (I don't recall her saying the possibility was gross or using language that strong. I do know Toru would do a "gross" face to Miyamura but I feel that sort of stuff kinda mellowed out as the series went on). It felt like, after a point (I think around when the bully came in), that she'd accepted the fact Miyamura "attracts" people of both genders, and her jealousy wasn't discriminating between genders or sexuality at all.

Not to say her actions are justified at all (they aren't. Jealousy plotlines in manga are obnoxious at the best of times and Hori's repeated jealousy is tiring to read, even when she acknowledges what a bitch she's been), or that people shouldn't feel uncomfortable. I felt uncomfortable, but I also felt the manga managed to swerve right before it hit the really phobic level.
But knowing that the anime likes playing up some of the worst parts of the show (like opening the show with the stupid pedo teacher...) makes me assume they didn't handle this as well as they could've.

I plan to catch up at some point but it is a bit disappointing to hear fans of the manga say the anime isn't really adapting it as well as it could be, especially when it started off so strong.

That said I was totally expecting people to start having issues with the show because Hori's jealousy and fetish are very dividing (and annoying. I'm so tired of chapters based around her either being violent and jealous or making Miyamura do something he's not comfortable with. Even the disjointed, meandering filler chapters are better).
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Helix91



Joined: 30 Apr 2017
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:16 pm Reply with quote
harminia wrote:
I haven't kept up with the anime so I don't know if they approached it in a different way to the manga, but when I read the manga I felt that Hori's actions were just toeing the line of biphobia. I didn't feel it ever stepped over that line, but it came very close to it. It could be that the translations I read made sure to lessen the language, I'm not sure. It could also be that I'm comparing this with anime/manga that go straight down the "ew gays" joke route and this is the lesser of two evils...

But for me, it felt like Hori's reactions were mostly just due to jealousy and the idea of anyone being with Miyamura beyond her as unappealing, rather than being biphobic (I don't recall her saying the possibility was gross or using language that strong. I do know Toru would do a "gross" face to Miyamura but I feel that sort of stuff kinda mellowed out as the series went on). It felt like, after a point (I think around when the bully came in), that she'd accepted the fact Miyamura "attracts" people of both genders, and her jealousy wasn't discriminating between genders or sexuality at all.


I mean in the latest episode she very explicitly states that the idea of Miyamura being with a guy is worse than him being with another girl. It might be a change from the manga (which I read a long time ago and don't remember all of), but her biphobia is quite clear in the anime.

The second half of the anime is disappointing because it takes source material with good and bad points and emphasizes the bad points. Manga Hori has some rough edges to her character, so the anime needed to either smooth them out or address them better. Instead, it's just having her act like an asshole in (it feels like) every scene between her and Miyamura for the last three episodes. I'm much more invested in the love triangle with the secondary characters at this point.
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mangaka-chan



Joined: 06 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:47 pm Reply with quote
Helix91 wrote:
Manga Hori has some rough edges to her character, so the anime needed to either smooth them out or address them better. Instead, it's just having her act like an asshole in (it feels like) every scene between her and Miyamura for the last three episodes. I'm much more invested in the love triangle with the secondary characters at this point.


I'm also glad I'm not the only person who found Hori's development in the latter half of the story to be concerning at best, and abusive at worst. I do think the author intended to play up her jealousy for the sake of comedy, much like her penchant for violence. But it all comes at Miyamura's expense and that just doesn't sit right with me as a viewer. That's why I've stopped watching after episode 7.
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harminia



Joined: 24 Aug 2015
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:11 pm Reply with quote
Helix91 wrote:
I mean in the latest episode she very explicitly states that the idea of Miyamura being with a guy is worse than him being with another girl. It might be a change from the manga (which I read a long time ago and don't remember all of), but her biphobia is quite clear in the anime.


Hmm yeah that's true, I have a vague recollection of her saying something like that (but trying to find that chapter in particular is way too hard). I think I sort of read that scene in a sense of "if you like guys that means I can't compete, whereas if you just like another girl I have a chance [because I can change myself to be more like them etc]" but I think either reading (or even something else entirely) is valid.

Hori really became one of the worst parts of her namesake show...
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Cardcaptor Takato



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:45 am Reply with quote
harminia wrote:


I think I sort of read that scene in a sense of "if you like guys that means I can't compete, whereas if you just like another girl I have a chance [because I can change myself to be more like them etc]" but I think either reading (or even something else entirely) is valid.

But like if Miyamura falls for another guy that doesn't mean he'll never fall in love with another girl again after that. If that's Hori's reasoning she still doesn't understand how bisexuality works at all. Hori reminds me of that one scene in Sex and the City where one of the characters was freaking out about being asked out by a bi guy and everyone kept making stereotypical claims about bi people.
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all-tsun-and-no-dere
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:47 am Reply with quote
Cardcaptor Takato wrote:
harminia wrote:


I think I sort of read that scene in a sense of "if you like guys that means I can't compete, whereas if you just like another girl I have a chance [because I can change myself to be more like them etc]" but I think either reading (or even something else entirely) is valid.

But like if Miyamura falls for another guy that doesn't mean he'll never fall in love with another girl again after that. If that's Hori's reasoning she still doesn't understand how bisexuality works at all.


You'd be amazed at how many people can't wrap their heads around the idea that people can be attracted to multiple genders
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Cardcaptor Takato



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:53 am Reply with quote
And if Hori sees everyone around her as competition for her man, she should maybe not be dating at this point in time, especially when they're just in high school, and how many people go through dozens of partners in their life time before finding the right person?
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Alan45
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:11 am Reply with quote
@Cardcaptor Takato

Shh you are revealing the dirty little secret of all high school romances. They are the training wheels for relationships. We are supposed to ignore that when reading or viewing one.

Dozens might be a bit much though.
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Kuzu



Joined: 13 Sep 2019
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:20 am Reply with quote
Alan45 wrote:
@Cardcaptor Takato

Shh you are revealing the dirty little secret of all high school romances. They are the training wheels for relationships. We are supposed to ignore that when reading or viewing one.

Dozens might be a bit much though.



Well this only holds true if they break up :V


Would be funny if Hori ran Miyamura into the arms of another man though.
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harminia



Joined: 24 Aug 2015
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:34 pm Reply with quote
all-tsun-and-no-dere wrote:
You'd be amazed at how many people can't wrap their heads around the idea that people can be attracted to multiple genders


Yep. There's a reason "bisexual erasure" is a thing. That's why you still get people calling certain famous people "gay" when they were bi (or possibly even pansexual etc).
I don't know if coding Miyamura as bi was intentional or just a way of showing him being "weird/awkward" (in the authors view) but it would not surprise me if the author, and therefore Hori, saw it in a "it's either one or the other" lens.

Kuzu wrote:
Would be funny if Hori ran Miyamura into the arms of another man though.

Now I want to read a manga where that happens... Totally tip the whole "tee hee she's so jealous how funny" concept on its head and show it for how toxic it can be. The boyfriend finds he can talk easily and without stress to a dude and realises how much happier he is when he's not stepping on eggshells like around his gf... hm. yeah.


Last edited by harminia on Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kinghumanity



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:46 pm Reply with quote
I strongly disagree with Rebecca Silverman's accusation of Hori (and the show) being homophobic. When I watched the episode my fairly straightforward interpretation is this: Hori is confident that she can defeat any other girl for Miyamura's affections, but if Miyamura is attracted to another guy, then there's nothing she could do.

It's a really big stretch to call that homophobic. Anime has enough real issues with the portrayal of LGBT people, let's not create fake ones.
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DuskyPredator
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:06 pm Reply with quote
kinghumanity wrote:
Hori is confident that she can defeat any other girl for Miyamura's affections, but if Miyamura is attracted to another guy, then there's nothing she could do.


And that is kind of biphobic. That if a bi person showed interest in someone of the same sex/gender then a partner of the opposite sex/gender would not be able to have their affection. This is the sort of thing where bisexual people get treated like they would be unable to help themselves if they interacted with someone that their partner thinks that they would not be able to meet.

Perhaps you don't see it, but it kind of works that way. It has also been that the show has kind of shown the idea as a joke that would be kind of gross, which has made it a bit homophobic.

I say this as a bisexual person myself who took a long time to see how jokes about it being funny/gross for an otherwise straight guy to maybe be in a this looks like a romantic same-sex thing, probably pushed me further into the closet because it is just a joke or is gross.
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all-tsun-and-no-dere
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:38 pm Reply with quote
DuskyPredator wrote:
kinghumanity wrote:
Hori is confident that she can defeat any other girl for Miyamura's affections, but if Miyamura is attracted to another guy, then there's nothing she could do.


And that is kind of biphobic. That if a bi person showed interest in someone of the same sex/gender then a partner of the opposite sex/gender would not be able to have their affection. This is the sort of thing where bisexual people get treated like they would be unable to help themselves if they interacted with someone that their partner thinks that they would not be able to meet.

Perhaps you don't see it, but it kind of works that way. It has also been that the show has kind of shown the idea as a joke that would be kind of gross, which has made it a bit homophobic.

I say this as a bisexual person myself who took a long time to see how jokes about it being funny/gross for an otherwise straight guy to maybe be in a this looks like a romantic same-sex thing, probably pushed me further into the closet because it is just a joke or is gross.


Agreed. Biphobia is so much more than "Ew, bi people." It's discomfort with the idea of dating someone who can be attracted to multiple sexes, the belief that we can't be monogamous, and other misconceptions. Hori feeling threatened by men instead of women, instead of just believing that Miyamura will be faithful regardless, is biphobic.
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