×
  • remind me tomorrow
  • remind me next week
  • never remind me
Subscribe to the ANN Newsletter • Wake up every Sunday to a curated list of ANN's most interesting posts of the week. read more

Forum - View topic
This Week in Anime - Who Are the Villains of Attack on Titan?


Goto page Previous  1, 2

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Agent355



Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 5113
Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:31 am Reply with quote
johan.eriksson.9003 wrote:

If you drop a bomb on a military target, knowing full well that they are surrounded by civillians, then you are intentionally targeting civillians.

And they established in the first episode that war crimes and treaties are a thing here.

Seriously, let's not splir hairs here.


TarsTarkas wrote:
If you use civilians as a meat shield to protect a military target, that is on you, not your enemies.

And this series is trying to have it both ways, by making it painfully obvious that Magath and Tyber chose the setting they were absolutely sure Paradis would would take their bait to attack—to the point of choosing their least favorite commanding officers seating arrangements based on where they’d most likely meet their doom. Maybe someone more well versed in military history can correct me, but I don’t think that’s based on an actual historical occurrence .

I’m in the “Eren committed a war crime” camp, but beyond the attack being immoral, it also seems poorly thought out—he took the bait, just as planned, and has now antagonized Marley and most of the world (because Tyber helpfully invited dignitaries to his one-man show). It mirrors what Reiner did on Paradis, but Eren is older, more experienced and more aware of the consequences than Reiner was when he broke the walls. He also had the support and advice of multiple friends trying to talk him out of it before reluctantly agreeing to save his ass (and maybe they shouldn’t have).

Eren is the villain now, and this attack was a huge mistake. (And before you ask, yes, I’m up to date with the manga)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yuvelir



Joined: 06 Jan 2015
Posts: 1558
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:34 am Reply with quote
Minos_Kurumada wrote:
The show only has 3 war crimes actually:

- The destrucción of both walls.

- Gaby disguising herself as a civilian in need to attack those guys un episode 1 of this season.

Can't think of another.

Certain Scouts bombing and burning random houses in order to kill as many Marleyans as possible after being ordered to minimize civilian casualties.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Johan Eriksson 9003



Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Posts: 281
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:12 am Reply with quote
Agent355 wrote:

And this series is trying to have it both ways, by making it painfully obvious that Magath and Tyber chose the setting they were absolutely sure Paradis would would take their bait to attack—to the point of choosing their least favorite commanding officers seating arrangements based on where they’d most likely meet their doom. Maybe someone more well versed in military history can correct me, but I don’t think that’s based on an actual historical occurrence .

I’m in the “Eren committed a war crime” camp, but beyond the attack being immoral, it also seems poorly thought out—he took the bait, just as planned, and has now antagonized Marley and most of the world (because Tyber helpfully invited dignitaries to his one-man show). It mirrors what Reiner did on Paradis, but Eren is older, more experienced and more aware of the consequences than Reiner was when he broke the walls. He also had the support and advice of multiple friends trying to talk him out of it before reluctantly agreeing to save his ass (and maybe they shouldn’t have).

Eren is the villain now, and this attack was a huge mistake. (And before you ask, yes, I’m up to date with the manga)


I mean, if you are up to date with the manga then Eren's actions should make perfect sense in my book. Not in a "this is the right thing to do" way but in a "he has an endgame he was working towards" way. Even if he still improvised or gambled at a few points.

Like, I'm pretty sure he knew the Scouts would come to save him even though he acted against their wishes because what else are they going to do? He knows that they can't afford to lose his power to Marley so while he is clearly taking a huge risk with both himself and others, he at least went in knowing that he would get reluctant backup.


Last edited by Johan Eriksson 9003 on Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:36 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Agent355



Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 5113
Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:19 am Reply with quote
I’m more saying that I disagree with Eren’s actions from this point on spoiler[ even if the narrative justifies it with “it was timey-whimey fate”, which it probably will reinforce at the story’s conclusion]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
proper1420



Joined: 13 Mar 2016
Posts: 32
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 1:45 am Reply with quote
Minos_Kurumada wrote:
The show only has 3 war crimes actually:

- The destrucción of both walls.

- Gaby disguising herself as a civilian in need to attack those guys un episode 1 of this season.

Can't think of another.


I think what Willy Tybur and Magath do by purposefully exposing civilians to an expected attack can be considered using civilians as shields, which is a war crime.

The war crime Gabi committed (and I suspect will commit again given that she's picked up a rifle while wearing civilian clothes) is called perfidy. An interesting question is whether Reiner, Bert, Annie, and Eren also committed perfidy by their use of their enemies uniforms to attack their enemies. There's a uncertain line between perfidy and a permissible "ruse of war"; it has been successfully argued that one can masquerade as an enemy or a neutral and still attack so long as one changes to the proper uniform or flag before attacking. But does transforming into a Titan constitute a change of uniform? I'm inclined to think so since it's so obvious, but given that this particular changing of uniform can in itself be lethal, it's rather like a warship running up its proper colors while it simultaneously opens fire; it's right on the line, which is where I think this story intends to be.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Johan Eriksson 9003



Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Posts: 281
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:13 am Reply with quote
I find it so very telling that people will bend over backwards to defend Eren and chastise Gabi.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Agent355



Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 5113
Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready...
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:00 pm Reply with quote
Just wanted to add that there is a theory among some manga readers that Eren spoiler[is being used and manipulated by Original Ymir as a tool to destroy the world, in which case he is playing into multiple enemies’ hands—Marley in this attack, and Original Ymir in the Rumbling. I don’t think the theory is likely, but it’s worth noting that even some manga readers think Eren is in the wrong for killing civilians just as his enemies want him to]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Calsolum



Joined: 11 May 2010
Posts: 898
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:49 am Reply with quote
Minos_Kurumada wrote:
I am going to place the next text in spoilers but they are not, its just a recollection of 2 past events:

spoiler[- In chapter 1 the very first thing we see Eren doing is waking up alone in a field crying for something and asking Mikasa why her hair is long and not short.

- Kruger mentioning that he was giving Grisha the Attack Titan's power in order to save Mikasa and Armin with himself not knowing what the hell was he talking about.]


This time the plot is quite in your face if you ask me.

Anyways, quite frankly I felt nothing when they attacked Marley, maybe because I don't like anybody in there.


Good eye. I had forgotten about the first event throughout the story but after the second event, that first event raised my attention again. It'll be quite some time till its brought up again but those definitely on purpose.

Agent355 wrote:
Just wanted to add that there is a theory among some manga readers that Eren spoiler[is being used and manipulated by Original Ymir as a tool to destroy the world, in which case he is playing into multiple enemies’ hands—Marley in this attack, and Original Ymir in the Rumbling. I don’t think the theory is likely, but it’s worth noting that even some manga readers think Eren is in the wrong for killing civilians just as his enemies want him to]


I don't think that's the case at least not directly. spoiler[Original Ymir is the one with all the power, always had been. Everyone else from Fritz's family had a sort of psychological hold on her, she obeyed orders her whole life and kept doing so no matter what godlike power she obtained. Eren basically 'freed' her, not because of some supernatural power but by giving her a choice, freeing her by acknowledging her existence as a person not a tool. If she really wanted to she could have just done it all anyway. It just seems ineffective to go through so many hoops just to get permission.
My guess is that there's no 'real' mastermind, all of this was set into motion long ago. Long before Ymir's time humans have been perpetuating a cycle of violence and Eren got swept up in it and he's spread it to all of humanity. He has the power to stop it but is too caught up in it to even try.
His 'predictions' tells him its pointless but ultimately I believe the series will end in someone, somehow filly ending it. Maybe it will be Armin. Maybe Historia will appeal to Eren. Who knows, maybe I'm completely wrong but June will tell]


Honestly Eren has always been sorta broken but in contrast to his enemies who were at the time literal monsters and the qualities of a shonen protagonist it went under the radar for most people for some time.
I love this version of Eren but he's become the very thing he hated.
Jean-Paul Sartre said: Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does.
No one embodies this more than Eren so he must be held accountable for his choices in some way or another.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar


Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 16935
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:04 pm Reply with quote
Some of you need to watch the thinly veiled personal insults moving forward.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
#jaycee529



Joined: 25 Jan 2021
Posts: 1
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:14 pm Reply with quote
Agree, not to mention the title of the very first episode of the series is "To you, after 2000 years". Always wondered about the meaning behind that and looks like we will be getting those answers too.

Minos_Kurumada wrote:
I am going to place the next text in spoilers but they are not, its just a recollection of 2 past events:

spoiler[- In chapter 1 the very first thing we see Eren doing is waking up alone in a field crying for something and asking Mikasa why her hair is long and not short.

- Kruger mentioning that he was giving Grisha the Attack Titan's power in order to save Mikasa and Armin with himself not knowing what the hell was he talking about.]


This time the plot is quite in your face if you ask me.

Anyways, quite frankly I felt nothing when they attacked Marley, maybe because I don't like anybody in there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group