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INTEREST: Toei Animation Refuses Labor Negotiations With LGBT Union Member


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KabaKabaFruit



Joined: 20 Sep 2007
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Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:48 pm Reply with quote
And this is precisely why I won't pay a single cent for anime that comes out of these types of studios anymore.

I have no reason to support industries that exploit their workers for the sake of the bottom line. I like anime but not that much to the point that workers need to be whipcracked at the expense of their own physical and mental well being.

I strongly suggest everybody else here do the same.
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Horsefellow



Joined: 01 Jan 2020
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:29 am Reply with quote
Cardcaptor Takato wrote:
I would understand why they wouldn't with pressure from the studio higher ups but it would still be nice if some creative voices behind some of their shows known for having inclusive messages like Sailor Moon and Precure would speak out against Toei's atrocious behavior here.


You're assuming they don't share the same views, which are quite common in Japan. I won't cite manga adaptions they do since those are written by other people, like all the Okama stuff in One Piece, but Toei originals like Precure, Super Sentai, and Kamen Rider tend to have joke trans characters like Madam Momere in Happiness Charge and the Donut shop lady in Wizard.

Although this sounds like it's more of a "we need your legal name" technicality thing than anything else.
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Shay Guy



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:48 am Reply with quote
Vent wrote:
I think this is exactly the case and honestly it makes the whole thing even worse to me, because it's not just discrimination it's discrimination tactically invoked to avoid having to work with a union rep.


It's kind of stunning in its cynicism, but then again, I don't know that I can consider "I don't like how they make me feel, so there must be something wrong with them" to be better or worse than "we don't really care, but it's a useful bludgeon to save a buck".
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Cardcaptor Takato



Joined: 27 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:15 am Reply with quote
Horsefellow wrote:


You're assuming they don't share the same views, which are quite common in Japan. I won't cite manga adaptions they do since those are written by other people, like all the Okama stuff in One Piece, but Toei originals like Precure, Super Sentai, and Kamen Rider tend to have joke trans characters like Madam Momere in Happiness Charge and the Donut shop lady in Wizard.

I think that's also making broad assumptions about metaseries franchises that are done by different directors and writers for each series that have different attitudes and worldviews. Just this past year Kamen Rider Zero-One got a lot of high praise for having both non-binary characters and actors in the series. Hugtto Precure also got a lot of praise for the character of Henri and the person at the center of this case specifically sites Precure for it's hopeful messages and having inclusive portrayals of gender expression. But I feel like this is something we have to repeat every time this subject comes up that Japan is not a monolith and they have a large and vocal community of LGBTQ+ people and allies. But my point is that if they don't share the viewers of the higher ups and they're not just using LGBTQ+ identities to make money off of character goods, it would be really helpful to facilitate change at the corporation for people involved in the creative staff who are in a position of power and influence to do something about it when there's a real world situation in front of them.


Last edited by Cardcaptor Takato on Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:19 am; edited 3 times in total
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Sailor Sedna



Joined: 08 Jan 2015
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:17 am Reply with quote
Good job, Toei Animation. Is this really the hill you want to die on or Corporate Darwin award you want to win (a bad decision made by a company/corporation that kills the business)? This is a new low, even for you.
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:34 am Reply with quote
CrowLia wrote:

They do have unions, but instead of being wide unions for workers of the same trade across different companies, each company has its own union which therefore tends to be under the company's thumb; rather than pushing for better working conditions and protecting workers' rights they de-escalate conflicts and tend to favor the company's interests over the workers'

Why does this not surprise me in the least. Japanese corporate culture is a terrifying dystopian hellscape.
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Rentwo



Joined: 05 Oct 2019
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:29 am Reply with quote
Cardcaptor Takato wrote:
I feel like this is something we have to repeat every time this subject comes up that Japan is not a monolith and they have a large and vocal community of LGBTQ+ people and allies.


While this is true, I also think it's important to notice that Japan as a whole does lean very heavily to the right. Even among young voters, about 65%-70% of those in their 20s favored the Liberal Democratic party last election, which is ironically the conservative party in Japan. It's at the point where the younger generation is more supportive of the LDP than the older generation are, so it's unlikely this willl change even as the older generation passes on.

Of course there's groups that support LGBT folks in Japan, but they're not anywhere comparable to the size and influence they have in the west. There's always going to be exceptions to the rules, but I think it's unhealthy for people to try to pin stuff like this solely on faceless executives and CEOs and try to keep the creators hands clean so they can still enjoy the anime and manga they produce. A lot of writers in Japan do hold beliefs people probably aren't going to like if they lean more progressively.
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Tempest
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:02 am Reply with quote
Numerous people have pointed to the fact that "B-san" used a pseudonym when dealing with the company, and that Toei has every right to require that their staff use their legal names.

However, B-san points out that many Toei staff work under pseudonyms. Toei did not extend to B-san the same privileges it extended to its other staff. If B-san's allegations are true, then there is a strong argument to be made that Toei discriminated against B-san.

Those arguing that "Toei has a right to enforce... ," are completely missing the point here.

-t
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Tempest
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:26 am Reply with quote
Cardcaptor Takato wrote:
I feel like this is something we have to repeat every time this subject comes up that Japan is not a monolith and they have a large and vocal community of LGBTQ+ people and allies.


Rentwo wrote:
While this is true, I also think it's important to notice that Japan as a whole does lean very heavily to the right. Even among young voters, about 65%-70% of those in their 20s favored the Liberal Democratic party last election, which is ironically the conservative party in Japan. It's at the point where the younger generation is more supportive of the LDP than the older generation are, so it's unlikely this will change even as the older generation passes on.

Of course there's groups that support LGBT folks in Japan, but they're not anywhere comparable to the size and influence they have in the west. There's always going to be exceptions to the rules, but I think it's unhealthy for people to try to pin stuff like this solely on faceless executives and CEOs and try to keep the creators hands clean so they can still enjoy the anime and manga they produce. A lot of writers in Japan do hold beliefs people probably aren't going to like if they lean more progressively.


You are both correct, and together painting a more complete picture. Overall it's true that Japan is a more conservative society than North America when it comes to "progressive issues" such as LGBTQ+ rights. But a lot of Westerners who oppose LGBTQ+ rights like to argue that there is no support whatsoever in Japan. I've never seen an LGBTQ+ ally claim that Japan as awash with support for LGBTQ+ rights. It would be nice if more people who try to bring up Japanese society in defense of their own beliefs actually knew anything about Japanese society.

I would definitely add that obviously not everyone who votes LDP opposes LGBTQ+ rights. I know many people who openly support progressive LGBTQ+ rights, but vote for the LDP for a variety of other reasons (international politics, economic policy, habit, etc.)
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Tempest
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:29 am Reply with quote
Top Gun wrote:
Why does this not surprise me in the least. Japanese corporate culture is a terrifying dystopian hellscape.


Some of problems with Japan's corporate cultures are very different from the problems with American corporate culture, but no less horrifying. Japanese people are no less horrified when they hear about certain things that happen in American corporations that would never happen in Japan.
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residentgrigo



Joined: 23 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:39 am Reply with quote
Another giant L for Toei. Good luck to whoever they f###ed over.
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[email protected]



Joined: 21 Jan 2021
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:43 am Reply with quote
Shueisha also need to be opened up to LGBTQ and minoraties in order to become diverse, and by the time that 5000 signature has reached Toei will open up it's eyes and realize the mistake, and apoligize to the public for everything. Disney is became most beloved for becoming diverse, and became successful.
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HoshizoranoUtage



Joined: 20 Jul 2020
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:07 pm Reply with quote
Tempest wrote:
Top Gun wrote:
Why does this not surprise me in the least. Japanese corporate culture is a terrifying dystopian hellscape.


Some of problems with Japan's corporate cultures are very different from the problems with American corporate culture, but no less horrifying. Japanese people are no less horrified when they hear about certain things that happen in American corporations that would never happen in Japan.

Part of me wants to put my Japanese skills to good use and search around to see what kinds of things Japanese people find horrifying about American corporate culture now...
I know that Japanese media tends to paint the US as dangerous and crime-ridden (and there's some truth to that), and some Japanese people I know are scared to travel to the US because of this, but I hadn't heard of Japan finding parts of US work culture horrifying.
Interesting...
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Aresef



Joined: 22 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:11 pm Reply with quote
What is the law in Japan on these issues?
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Juno016



Joined: 09 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:19 pm Reply with quote
HoshizoranoUtage wrote:
Part of me wants to put my Japanese skills to good use and search around to see what kinds of things Japanese people find horrifying about American corporate culture now...


I don't hear "horror stories" per say, but I see a lot of anonymous opinions on matome sites talking about healthcare, insurance, low wages (ironic considering some industries in Japan pay worse on the bottom), and access to transportation. I notice a lot of people who say they have worked in the US cite problems with healthcare and access to transportation mostly. Most general comments are just shocked about whatever individual situation a news article is about, though (matome sites are very tabloid in nature and tend to exaggerate news for clicks).

Btw, @Tempest, I genuinely appreciate your contextual insight in these threads. Sincerely, thank you!

I was not openly LGBTQ+ in Japan, but I did come out as trans upon coming to the US again in 2018 (I've lived back and forth throughout my life) and my Japanese friends suspected this already, constantly encourage me to return to Japan so we can do makeup and go clothes shopping together, and are confident that Japan will continue to get more socially progressive as the age groups shift. I'm not an expert on Japanese politics, but I have studied general political party history right up to the major party shift and from what I remember, it's not as simple left vs. right as those I see in some Western countries like the US and UK. The LDP generally opposes some LGBTQ+ legislation, but there are some prominent members who openly support and advocate it, too. The US at least tends to see a huge tug-of-war shift between the left and right, but Japan's ruling party often reflects a wider audience based on general consensus in the public. Right now, it's mostly conservative because it reflects the aging population, but there are some younger people within and outside the party who are hopeful for a shift. I don't see a lot of anti-capitalist sentiment, though. Most people generally support whatever economic policies seem to be working for them. There are fewer populist movements in Japan because the rich tend to live modestly and the poorer groups usually have access to many of their basic needs. Income inequality is still growing, but it's not as visible in society at large. ...Of course, I have spent very little time caring much about Japanese politics since 2013, so things may have changed drastically since. Even living there, I was isolated from tv news and newspapers and stuck to whatever I was reading on the internet to inform me, so... blegh. Not an expert.
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