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INTEREST: Toei Animation Refuses Labor Negotiations With LGBT Union Member


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Hellsoldier



Joined: 21 Jun 2013
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Location: Porto,Portugal,Europe,Earth,Sol
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:20 pm Reply with quote
Aresef wrote:
What is the law in Japan on these issues?


Laws vary by prefecture. If Toei is in Tokyo, as I think it is, then they are in trouble. Since April 2019, Anti-LGBT Discrimination is banned there. Thanks Koike.
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That's Big!



Joined: 23 Jan 2021
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Location: Japan
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:43 pm Reply with quote
Hellsoldier wrote:
Laws vary by prefecture. If Toei is in Tokyo, as I think it is, then they are in trouble. Since April 2019, Anti-LGBT Discrimination is banned there. Thanks Koike.


Which they only passed because it was a requirement for any city hosting the Olympic Games to have an anti-discrimination policy in place. Even Russia passed one back in 2014. Whether they actually enforce it is something else entirely, especially since the Olympics aren't even happening there anymore.
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Cardcaptor Takato



Joined: 27 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:43 pm Reply with quote
Tempest wrote:


You are both correct, and together painting a more complete picture. Overall it's true that Japan is a more conservative society than North America when it comes to "progressive issues" such as LGBTQ+ rights. But a lot of Westerners who oppose LGBTQ+ rights like to argue that there is no support whatsoever in Japan. I've never seen an LGBTQ+ ally claim that Japan as awash with support for LGBTQ+ rights. It would be nice if more people who try to bring up Japanese society in defense of their own beliefs actually knew anything about Japanese society.

I would definitely add that obviously not everyone who votes LDP opposes LGBTQ+ rights. I know many people who openly support progressive LGBTQ+ rights, but vote for the LDP for a variety of other reasons (international politics, economic policy, habit, etc.)
Looking at it from an outsider's perspective, it sounds like Japan is where the US was back in the early 2000s if one was to make an analogy where the majority of the US was opposed to marriage equality. But there was growing support for LGBTQ+ rights among young people and you had some members of the opposition party who maybe supported anti discrimination laws and a state by state approach to civil unions but weren't fully on board with marriage equality back then. But most people wouldn't say all of the US was a monolith during the Bush years.
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Villain-chan



Joined: 18 May 2020
Posts: 92
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:45 pm Reply with quote
Ok, I'm honestly a bit disappointed no one pointed what am about to say out, disappointed in, there doesn't seem to be many or any here that knows this so to those who were wondering and those saying "Why don't they change their name legally then?" As a few pointed out, there's prolly a reason for this. No reason was discussed or mentioned (Besides money) so let me mention a few that I am aware of. Keep in mind this is from the US perspective however this still most likely all applies to Japan too. So, let's assume someone wants to change their name? There's many factors involved in the process. One is money as pointed out, even if one HAS the money to do so, the law may be a problem. Take for example the US. Some states REQUIRE you to announce your name change in the NEWS PAPER for WEEKS, ya know, something LGBTQ+ people may not be ok with doing for a number of reasoning including discrimination, safety and rejection and so on.

That is just 1 aspect, other aspects involve might need certain paper work, forms, stamps etc. There's far more involved for why someone may not be able to legally change their name than what I've mentioned. The timing of when to change one's name is also an important role, lastly, in this case B-san, we do not know when they discovered this about themself, for all we know it could've been recently and they haven't been able to legally change their name as a result. Like I said, timing is important, as is perspective, this is a perspective I'm sure many didn't consider. I am sure there's other factors even i am not aware of or didn't mention here to also consider but the take away is, no one has the right to q WHY someone hasn't changed their name legally yet, its a highly personal matter and it's very rude and very inconsiderate (not to mention if asked or said to the individual, can really hurt them).

As for the article itself, Toei discriminated, i can't see any way this isn't a case of that. I hope everyone involved with the company (Not just the two mentioned) come outta this alright. I also hope Toei changes its views and ways, its honestly to me, very disappointing to see this is how they are and the hypocrisy they (the people in charge of the company) have despite what their series they make says positive stuff for LGBTQ+ people. Everyone deserves respect, regardless of who you are, ur beliefs, views and such.

And I wanna quote the below because this NEEDS to be reposted and quoted for truth.

Tempest wrote:
Numerous people have pointed to the fact that "B-san" used a pseudonym when dealing with the company, and that Toei has every right to require that their staff use their legal names.

However, B-san points out that many Toei staff work under pseudonyms. Toei did not extend to B-san the same privileges it extended to its other staff. If B-san's allegations are true, then there is a strong argument to be made that Toei discriminated against B-san.

Those arguing that "Toei has a right to enforce... ," are completely missing the point here.

-t
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HoshizoranoUtage



Joined: 20 Jul 2020
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:46 pm Reply with quote
@Juno016
Thanks for the info! I always find it really interesting whenever I read/watch things about how Japanese people view the US, so I listen to things like the "4989 American Life" podcast and watch Inoue Joe's Youtube channel sometimes. (Although the latter seems to have a fairly negative view of the US, which I find kind of interesting to watch)
I haven't read matome sites much, and when I tried they felt kind of clickbait-y, but maybe I should try reading them more to see what's popular, since it's probably less dreary than reading news sites.

-------

Also, I got curious and searched out the official Japanese government page on name changes. (Google translated link posted, since the original is in Japanese. There may be a version of it on their English site, but I couldn't find it) That link says that someone would need 800 yen (equivalent to $7.65), the form (which states the reason for the name change), a copy of the person's family register, and material providing proof of the reason for the name change.

Hmm, it also says this about the reason:
Quote:
A legitimate reason is a case in which a person's social life is hindered unless the name is changed, and mere personal whims, feelings, and religious reasons are not sufficient enough.


So I guess it's often used in cases of people with unusual names or something. It's interesting that you have to prove that your name is negatively impacting your social life. I'm assuming someone like B-san might have a good case to make then, since it's negatively affecting their career.


Last edited by HoshizoranoUtage on Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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k_ozdragon



Joined: 27 Jul 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:58 am Reply with quote
I seems like a lot of assumptions are made here that really shouldn't be made with such little evidence. When bad things happen, people often look to insecurities and other means aside from the simple fact that they may have failed. I thought my boss always hated me for the way I talked, and that's a bit of unfair discrimination. Turns out he didn't like me because I was late all the time. We're getting one side of a story here.
While it's worth merit discussing "could this have happened because of X" I think jumping to the automatic conclusion that the people at Toei are a bunch of hateful people is a bit of a wide assumption. It's not worth the "Down with this terrible company!!!!" comments, believing in something absent of fact.
Fact: union negotiations go south. It happens. Employers will also use any excuse to halt negotiations. I would imagine a society like Japan, who places emphasis on decorum at all times, would find it easy to stop negotiations based on someone showing up as a representative using a false name.
Fact: people get fired from their job. That room where employees go to do pointless things until they quit likely has other people in it. It just might possibly be, that A-san wasn't the best at their job; or maybe they were, but Toei didn't think so. If Toei didn't like the person's orientation, then *how did they get hired* in the first place? Seems odd....
I could see the easy excuse to look at their orientation and claim discrimination. Afterall, B-san is traumatized simply by looking at their own name. If that's not call for a complex, I don't know what is. Absent more information, the case is a bit weak here.
Again, discussing the possibility doesn't hurt, as it gives voice to an actual issue in society. Actually putting blame onto an entire company on such weak merit, not so much.
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enurtsol



Joined: 01 May 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:57 am Reply with quote
k_ozdragon wrote:

Fact: people get fired from their job. That room where employees go to do pointless things until they quit likely has other people in it. It just might possibly be, that A-san wasn't the best at their job; or maybe they were, but Toei didn't think so. If Toei didn't like the person's orientation, then *how did they get hired* in the first place? Seems odd.....


The orientation issue applies only to B-san, not A-san

A-san is hetero AFAIK

B-san is the union rep and doesn't work for Toei
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RealMTL



Joined: 09 Jun 2018
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:52 am Reply with quote
Aww man, articles like this really seem to rile up ANN's userbase. I wonder if the parties involved ever bothered with changing their legal name? If not they might not have much of a leg to stand on.
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El Hermano



Joined: 24 Feb 2019
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:34 am Reply with quote
enurtsol wrote:
The orientation issue applies only to B-san, not A-san

A-san is hetero AFAIK

B-san is the union rep and doesn't work for Toei


Rather than going though numerous legal hoops of officially changing their name, it seems like an easier solution would be to assign a new labor union representative to the worker's case. It seems like the company was using it as more of an excuse to leave the negotiating table and rather than play their game and stalling the whole thing for months a simple swap in would be the most effective way to expedite the worker's claim for their slashed hours.
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Psycho 101
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:13 pm Reply with quote
Some more clean up has been done. Stick to the topic at hand. Comments about the thread itself with nothing else to them serve only to further rile people up. They come off as mostly flame bait. So let's forgo that.

k_ozdragon wrote:
I seems like a lot of assumptions are made here that really shouldn't be made with such little evidence.


And you seem to be ignoring the evidence and facts presented thus far, and the clear image they present. You're toting the "little evidence" card, which now a days comes off as more of an excuse for people to ignore things that have been presented that they simply don't like or agree with. So they attempt to misrepresent those points and sweep it under the rug by claiming there's little evidence. It's disingenuous to say the least.

Especially since in your other post (that got removed for being troll bait) you wanted to start with claiming there was discrimination in the thread by people commenting on the bigoted post of a user (who has since been banned and the post removed), and how it's "funny" certain views get banned and others don't. There's nothing funny about being a bigot or making bigoted comments, and anyone who espouses to that idea will be banned. As will those who try to defend such behavior, which you're skirting the line on yourself between your 2 posts given their very disingenuous nature and tone.
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Tempest
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:01 pm Reply with quote
Aresef wrote:
What is the law in Japan on these issues?


Constitution of Japan Article 13. wrote:
All of the people shall be respected as individuals. Their right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness shall, to the extent that it does not interfere with the public welfare, be the supreme consideration in legislation and in other governmental affairs.


Constitution of Japan - Article 14. wrote:
All of the people are equal under the law and there shall be no discrimination in political, economic or social relations because of race, creed, sex, social status or family origin.


According to Japanese sources, the wording of article 14 is general interpreted to forbid all forms of discrimination, even those not specifically mentioned. The constitution does not mention gender identity (nor sexual orientation fwiw).

As previously mentioned, in accordance with requirements to become an Olympic host city, Tokyo prefecture passed a law in October 2018 (which came into effect January 1, 2019), which forbids discrimination based on sexual orientation. The law went further than the IOC requirements and also forbids discrimination based on gender identity.

I can't find the actual statute (Tokyo Prefecture doesn't publish an official translation of it's laws AFAIK), but newspapers quote the following phrase:
wrote:
[...] the Tokyo Metropolitan Government, citizens, and enterprises may not unduly discriminate on the basis of gender identity or sexual orientation[...]
.
Toei Animation is located in Nerima, Tokyo.

The Union filed it's claim of discrimination and request for relief with the Tokyo Metropolitan Labor Commission, so this definitely happened in Tokyo.

Toei Animation has denied ever discriminating against the individual (B-san).
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Tempest
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:04 pm Reply with quote
HoshizoranoUtage wrote:

Hmm, it also says this about the reason:
Quote:
A legitimate reason is a case in which a person's social life is hindered unless the name is changed, and mere personal whims, feelings, and religious reasons are not sufficient enough.


So I guess it's often used in cases of people with unusual names or something. It's interesting that you have to prove that your name is negatively impacting your social life. I'm assuming someone like B-san might have a good case to make then, since it's negatively affecting their career.


Yeah, I noticed that clause too. It isn't clear based on just the info if it's easy for a person to change their name based on their gender identity.
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yeehaw



Joined: 09 Sep 2018
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:04 pm Reply with quote
It seems like Toei simply felt like they were losing the argument with the union and realized they might have to deal with the consequences of their horrible practices and just went "aw crap, how do we get out of this...!? Uh, your name is fake bye!"
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SilverTalon01



Joined: 02 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:12 am Reply with quote
Tempest wrote:
However, B-san points out that many Toei staff work under pseudonyms. Toei did not extend to B-san the same privileges it extended to its other staff. If B-san's allegations are true, then there is a strong argument to be made that Toei discriminated against B-san.


Isn't B-san with an outside union because A-san felt that the Toei union was bias in favor of the company? It sounds like they aren't extending that privilege outside of their staff rather than not extending it to B-san like its other staff. Now if I'm misunderstanding and B-san is Toei staff, it does look like a strong argument for discrimination. However, if there is no precedent for 3rd party negotiators using pseudonyms then I think that is a much harder sell.

Either way it seems like a greedy move on the better end and a discriminatory one on the worse end, and both paint a poor image of Toei. If this wasn't intentionally discriminatory, some idiot stepped on a land mine.
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Villain-chan



Joined: 18 May 2020
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:26 am Reply with quote
SilverTalon01 wrote:
Tempest wrote:
However, B-san points out that many Toei staff work under pseudonyms. Toei did not extend to B-san the same privileges it extended to its other staff. If B-san's allegations are true, then there is a strong argument to be made that Toei discriminated against B-san.


Isn't B-san with an outside union because A-san felt that the Toei union was bias in favor of the company? It sounds like they aren't extending that privilege outside of their staff rather than not extending it to B-san like its other staff. Now if I'm misunderstanding and B-san is Toei staff, it does look like a strong argument for discrimination. However, if there is no precedent for 3rd party negotiators using pseudonyms then I think that is a much harder sell.

Either way it seems like a greedy move on the better end and a discriminatory one on the worse end, and both paint a poor image of Toei. If this wasn't intentionally discriminatory, some idiot stepped on a land mine.
You raise a good point, I forget if B-san was with Toei or not but even if not, since Toei already doesn't credit people with their names and instead uses alias' and such, their claim that B-san didn't use their legal name shouldn't even be a thing let alone hold water. Just doesn't make sense... and I agree with others that they're prolly trying to find a loophole to get outta this, disgusting tbh
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