View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
|
AmpersandsUnited
Joined: 22 Mar 2012
Posts: 633
|
Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:10 am
|
|
|
NeverConvex wrote: | Depicting a character who would be ~13 if human and having a pedophile MC comment on how she's perfect for him because she appears to be underage does not suddenly become a non-problematic portrayal because you write in the margins of the text that "Oh, by the way she's *actually* a 40 year old non-human character who just completely coincidentally looks exactly like a 13 year old human." |
Isn't that what people are doing for Rudy, though? Using his mental age rather than his physical age? Why is it okay to call him an adult but not Roxy? If people roll their eyes at the "well technically she's an adult..." explanation that pops up all the time in anime then surely they can see the irony of using the exact same argument for Rudy. Either a character's mental age is the deciding factor on how they should be classified or their physical age is. Either they're both adults, or they're both underage.
|
Back to top |
|
|
NeverConvex
Subscriber
Joined: 08 Jun 2013
Posts: 2269
|
Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:21 am
|
|
|
AmpersandsUnited wrote: |
NeverConvex wrote: | Depicting a character who would be ~13 if human and having a pedophile MC comment on how she's perfect for him because she appears to be underage does not suddenly become a non-problematic portrayal because you write in the margins of the text that "Oh, by the way she's *actually* a 40 year old non-human character who just completely coincidentally looks exactly like a 13 year old human." |
Isn't that what people are doing for Rudy, though? ... Either they're both adults, or they're both underage. |
I disagree. I think both their physical and mental depictions matter---Roxy's physical depiction matters, because she seems a character tailor-made to play into Rudy's pedophilia while trying to make it seem non-problematic. Rudy's mental depiction matters, because as our point-of-view character, we naturally judge his actions and personal judgment based on what we expect a personal of his mental age to know and be familiar with.
Really, I'd go further: I don't think Roxy being portrayed as a humanoid woman around the age of 25-30 or so, say, but mentally 5-6 years old, would make Rudy leering at her "better." It would just change the source of disgust from "Oh, the author thinks his pedophilia is funny" to "Oh, the author thinks preying sexually on a person with the mind of a child is funny".
|
Back to top |
|
|
AksaraKishou
Joined: 16 May 2015
Posts: 1410
Location: End of the World
|
Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:54 am
|
|
|
NeverConvex wrote: |
AmpersandsUnited wrote: |
NeverConvex wrote: | Depicting a character who would be ~13 if human and having a pedophile MC comment on how she's perfect for him because she appears to be underage does not suddenly become a non-problematic portrayal because you write in the margins of the text that "Oh, by the way she's *actually* a 40 year old non-human character who just completely coincidentally looks exactly like a 13 year old human." |
Isn't that what people are doing for Rudy, though? ... Either they're both adults, or they're both underage. |
I disagree. I think both their physical and mental depictions matter---Roxy's physical depiction matters, because she seems a character tailor-made to play into Rudy's pedophilia while trying to make it seem non-problematic. Rudy's mental depiction matters, because as our point-of-view character, we naturally judge his actions and personal judgment based on what we expect a personal of his mental age to know and be familiar with.
Really, I'd go further: I don't think Roxy being portrayed as a humanoid woman around the age of 25-30 or so, say, but mentally 5-6 years old, would make Rudy leering at her "better." It would just change the source of disgust from "Oh, the author thinks his pedophilia is funny" to "Oh, the author thinks preying sexually on a person with the mind of a child is funny". |
I love how you guys love grasping at a piece of info that was removed from the WN, precisely because it wasn't needed, and are then doing mental gymnastics to run into the ground. With all this grasping, i wonder if your house isn't bursting with straw...
|
Back to top |
|
|
NeverConvex
Subscriber
Joined: 08 Jun 2013
Posts: 2269
|
Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:59 am
|
|
|
AksaraKishou wrote: | I love how you guys love grasping at a piece of info that was removed from the WN, precisely because it wasn't needed, and are then doing mental gymnastics to run into the ground. With all this grasping, i wonder if your house isn't bursting with straw... |
Him leering at his "underage" tutor wasn't removed. He's quite explicit about it in the anime.
The material he was masturbating to in his real-life home wasn't revealed in the anime; that's true. It's not hard to put two-and-two together, though, and is hard to overlook after discussing it here and seeing his reactions to Roxy.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Blanchimont
Joined: 25 Feb 2012
Posts: 3426
Location: Finland
|
Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:04 am
|
|
|
NeverConvex wrote: | Him leering at his "underage" tutor wasn't removed. He's quite explicit about it in the anime. |
And you keep repeating 'underage' moniker on Roxy when it's been repeatedly explained she's not despite her appearance. Rudy may have perceived her as such at that scene based on that appearance, but she's not...
|
Back to top |
|
|
NeverConvex
Subscriber
Joined: 08 Jun 2013
Posts: 2269
|
Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:06 am
|
|
|
Blanchimont wrote: |
NeverConvex wrote: | [Him leering at his "underage" tutor wasn't removed. He's quite explicit about it in the anime. |
And you keep repeating 'underage' moniker on Roxy while it's been repeatedly explained she's not despite her appearance. Rudy may have perceived her as such at that scene based on that appearance, but she's not... |
I've already addressed this above. It is a perfectly suitable description of a character drawn to appear to be a 13-year old human, even if she is "really truly a 4,000 year old sexy space dragon", or some other superficial nonsense. I will continue to refer to her as such.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Key
Moderator
Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 18138
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
|
Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:11 am
|
|
|
Blanchimont wrote: |
NeverConvex wrote: | Him leering at his "underage" tutor wasn't removed. He's quite explicit about it in the anime. |
And you keep repeating 'underage' moniker on Roxy when it's been repeatedly explained she's not despite her appearance. Rudy may have perceived her as such at that scene based on that appearance, but she's not... |
In fairness, the anime adaptation has yet to clarify or more than very vaguely suggest this point, so this is a detail only explicitly known by novel readers. I will concede, however, that she has acted older than her apparent physical age.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Violet Park
Joined: 18 Jul 2018
Posts: 115
|
Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:13 am
|
|
|
Blanchimont wrote: |
NeverConvex wrote: | Him leering at his "underage" tutor wasn't removed. He's quite explicit about it in the anime. |
And you keep repeating 'underage' moniker on Roxy when it's been repeatedly explained she's not despite her appearance. Rudy may have perceived her as such at that scene based on that appearance, but she's not... |
And that's the problem. He is attracted to her because she is child-looking. That's pedophilia. To compare, if Roxy was physically attracted to Rudeus I'd call her a pedo too even if she knew how old he really is because she'd still be attracted to someone who looks like a child.
|
Back to top |
|
|
lossthief
ANN Reviewer
Joined: 14 Dec 2012
Posts: 1380
|
Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:17 am
|
|
|
Blanchimont wrote: |
NeverConvex wrote: | Him leering at his "underage" tutor wasn't removed. He's quite explicit about it in the anime. |
And you keep repeating 'underage' moniker on Roxy when it's been repeatedly explained she's not despite her appearance. Rudy may have perceived her as such at that scene based on that appearance, but she's not... |
Conveniently you're forgetting (or rather, purposefully ignoring)
A) Rudy doesn't initially know how old Roxy actually is.
B) His comments are entirely on her appearance and have nothing to do with her presumed or perceived mental age
C) His first comment is that she looks too young to have started growing pubic hair
D) He second comment is that looking so young, along with her demeanor, makes her just his type and that he wants to marry her.
So, y'know, if you're going to keep defending this at least get your story straight.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Blanchimont
Joined: 25 Feb 2012
Posts: 3426
Location: Finland
|
Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:23 am
|
|
|
lossthief wrote: | Conveniently you're forgetting (or rather, purposefully ignoring)
A) Rudy doesn't initially know how old Roxy actually is.
B) His comments are entirely on her appearance and have nothing to do with her presumed or perceived mental age
C) His first comment is that she looks too young to have started growing pubic hair
D) He second comment is that looking so young, along with her demeanor, makes her just his type and that he wants to marry her. |
What? That's literally what the second line says in my post;
Quote: | Rudy may have perceived her as such at that scene based on that appearance, |
Perceive; interpret or regard (someone or something) in a particular way.
|
Back to top |
|
|
AksaraKishou
Joined: 16 May 2015
Posts: 1410
Location: End of the World
|
Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:43 am
|
|
|
NeverConvex wrote: |
Blanchimont wrote: |
NeverConvex wrote: | [Him leering at his "underage" tutor wasn't removed. He's quite explicit about it in the anime. |
And you keep repeating 'underage' moniker on Roxy while it's been repeatedly explained she's not despite her appearance. Rudy may have perceived her as such at that scene based on that appearance, but she's not... |
I've already addressed this above. It is a perfectly suitable description of a character drawn to appear to be a 13-year old human, even if she is "really truly a 4,000 year old sexy space dragon", or some other superficial nonsense. I will continue to refer to her as such. |
Sir, this is a Wendy's.
To anyone who reads this and is trying to defend Mushoku and Rudeus. Don't bother. As you can see, anyone who tries to argue in favor of either is met with the same people on every thread (down to mods/reviewers).
To people on the end of the stick, if you want people to stop defending it... stop b***ing about it. People defend it this strongly, not because they particularly care, but because you just don't stop.
Don't let the high horse run you over.
PS: To the other lad above, the pedo stuff was also removed from the LN i believe. Not that it matters for EN readers. Seems like they're rewriting even more stuff than what was previously reported. In the EN LN, even side stories that touch on Lilia's rape are wooooosh.
|
Back to top |
|
|
NeverConvex
Subscriber
Joined: 08 Jun 2013
Posts: 2269
|
Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:28 pm
|
|
|
AksaraKishou wrote: | To people on the end of the stick, if you want people to stop defending it... stop b***ing about it. People defend it this strongly, not because they particularly care, but because you just don't stop. |
Getting people "to stop defending it" isn't really a goal I hold. I think most of you all defending it haven't shown much interest in taking the criticisms raised seriously, and without serious engagement it'd be kind of silly to expect to actually persuade anyone of anything.
But I like trying to articulate my concerns/criticisms of the show clearly (especially the framing issue, which seems to consistently be given short shrift), and reading when others have done so, so I'm going to keep doing so whenever a new thread pops up and it seems relevant. Enjoy.
|
Back to top |
|
|
ATastySub
Past ANN Contributor
Joined: 19 Jan 2012
Posts: 639
|
Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:01 pm
|
|
|
Blanchimont wrote: |
lossthief wrote: | Conveniently you're forgetting (or rather, purposefully ignoring)
A) Rudy doesn't initially know how old Roxy actually is.
B) His comments are entirely on her appearance and have nothing to do with her presumed or perceived mental age
C) His first comment is that she looks too young to have started growing pubic hair
D) He second comment is that looking so young, along with her demeanor, makes her just his type and that he wants to marry her. |
What? That's literally what the second line says in my post;
Quote: | Rudy may have perceived her as such at that scene based on that appearance, |
Perceive; interpret or regard (someone or something) in a particular way. |
Oh you found dictionary.com again. Cool cool. Do us a favor and look up “mitigate.” Because it sure is fun and weird how you keep doing it over pedophilia, but congrats on continuing to do exactly the same shit after a mod even called you out on it. This is exactly why the defenses of this as a redemption story fall flat. The differences in his life aren’t in Rudy, but the worlds he’s in. In ours him lusting after and sexually assaulting children is rightfully a crime. In this new one they’re magically older or, in the case of the child he attempts to assault, ends up loving him anyways because he has been placed in a world that is designed to reward him. The moral of the story claims that it’s a story about being a better person, but that betterment is not placed on Rudy. Instead its real message is that “anyone can be a better... if the world worked differently and rewarded them instead of shunning them.” Which while it sounds the same at first glance it is a completely different message. It’s a story that has worked in stories where a good person who was treated badly by society through forces like sexism or racism get a second chance to shine in a place without those barriers. What these settings are meant to convey is that the inherent traits of these characters are what are good about them, and how in a just environment they would finally be perceived for the truth of who they are. However, it is entirely different when the character that has had this world built for them is a literal pedophile. Thankfully you’ve already looked up “perception” and posted it here for everyone to see how your perception of pedophilia is quite in line with what the story is displaying.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Shay Guy
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2093
|
Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:26 pm
|
|
|
DidiGetsRekt wrote: | (I created an account just for that so I hope it's relevant) |
Sorry, I don't think it is.
If I'm understanding you right, what you're talking about is external. "Failure to prosper" is not a character flaw. It's like saying not owning a Ferrari is a character flaw. A character flaw is something internal, psychological. The standard way it works is:
Internal problem → poor choices → external problems
And in a positive, heroic character arc, the mitigation of the internal problem leads to better choices with better consequences.
(A story might also dive into how external factors cause or shape internal problems. Take Finding Nemo -- Marlin's trauma leaves him gripped with fear of anything happening to Nemo, which leads him to be controlling and overprotective, which damages their relationship. The internal and external feed back into each other.)
So... how does this break down for Rudeus? What choices of his are framed as poor? What's their psychological root? How does he outgrow that psychological issue? What better choices does he make as a result?
And is the story honest about his problems?
I know the authors of Mushoku Tensei and Re:Zero are friends and fans of each other's work, so it feels a little awkward to pit them against each other. But I can't help noticing that while Subaru has major problems before his isekai-ing, being a depressed hikikomori and all, his circumstances are much better than Rudeus in the MT prologue. As his S2 flashback episode shows, he had parents who didn't know how to help him, but still loved, supported, and took care of him as best as they could. Rudeus has bigger and more pressing problems: He's newly homeless and has what he thinks are broken ribs, having just been beaten up and thrown out of the house by his siblings.
Why the difference in how they're treated by their family? Presumably because of differences in their own behavior. Thus, Rudeus's biggest tangible, external problem -- which, by my earlier logic, should lead back to his most important character flaw -- is the result of what he'd been doing that Subaru hadn't.
And that's not withdrawal, or cowardice, or general inaction and avoidance. Subaru was no different there. It's the Hitogami-damned child porn. That's what the facts of what's happening point to, but then his inner monologue focuses on his laziness and such instead. It's deeply dissonant framing. Is this supposed to be an unreliable narrator thing? Or are we supposed to view predatory sexual behavior as less harmful than Rudeus's potential being wasted?
And now that I'm typing it out that way, whoof, if that isn't a notion loaded with ugly precedent:
Brock Turner's father wrote: | His life will never be the one that he dreamed about and worked so hard to achieve. That is a steep price to pay for 20 minutes of action out of his 20 plus years of life. |
It's okay, it was only 20 minutes of action. It's okay, he gets hit with a slapstick mallet every time he crosses the line. It's okay, Master Roshi doesn't do anything really bad, and besides he's old. It's okay, he's just a kid flipping skirts. It's okay, she only looks like a preteen. It's okay, she's happy about being his slave. It's okay, Malty/Flare/whoever had it coming.
There's a pattern here.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Blanchimont
Joined: 25 Feb 2012
Posts: 3426
Location: Finland
|
Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:50 pm
|
|
|
@ATastySub Uh, nothing in your post have anything to do with the quoted post. What are you after here?
ATastySub wrote: | The moral of the story claims that it’s a story about being a better person, but that betterment is not placed on Rudy. Instead its real message is that “anyone can be a better... if the world worked differently and rewarded them instead of shunning them.” Which while it sounds the same at first glance it is a completely different message. It’s a story that has worked in stories where a good person who was treated badly by society through forces like sexism or racism get a second chance to shine in a place without those barriers. |
The story is literally about Rudy growing up, making mistakes and learning from them. And by that I don't mean an episode/chapter or two, I mean the whole story...
And you're making a huge mistake here, the position of a protagonist is by no means reserved for characters who are good from the get go. Rudy has issues, sure, but by no means does that mean the narrative of the story is somehow handicapped or its enjoyment diminished...
|
Back to top |
|
|
|