Forum - View topicTrans and Gender Non-Conforming Anime Characters.
|
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 Next |
| Author | Message | |||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15457 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
|
|||||||
|
I agree, and know that I should not just put it onto just any character who might be some level androgynous or something. But I do think it can become more valid when the ambiguity is an integral part of the character, so much that they and other characters go out of the way for things like gender neutral language.
With Opera, apparently along the lines of the English dub there is only ever gender neutral pronouns used, saying they. And apparently the creator has gone out of the way to avoid mentioning a gender. To be fair, not saying a gender is not the same confirming one, but in regards to things like language, I do think deliberate avoiding an answer can be synonymous where the word non-binary is still rather niche. Other examples I can think of are Hange from Attack on Titan, and I think that I saw a video that said a character from Soul Eater probably fits the bill. Normalisation can come from being able to identifying such characters, and have them be more than just that weird character that the text does not confirm a gender of. And that you will get a lot of fanbases that will on top of just decide their gender by figuring out what they likely have between their legs. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
P€|\||§_|\/|ast@
 Posts: 3498 Location: IN your nightmares |
|
|||||||
|
I find that Nagisa from Assassination Classroom is a bit similar to Opera as a character who presents with a bit of gender ambiguity. Nagisa's big eyes, small stature and blue hair with short twintails makes him easily mistakable for a girl. The difference is, since he's first introduced as a student (with a boys uniform), we are almost completely certain he's male. Opera, despite using a butler-like uniform (rather than maid's), we are a bit less certain in this context of their gender. I know in a few scenes, Nagisa crossdresses but because those scenes are played up for shock value or humor, it's even less questionable that he's AMAB. Perhaps there is a bit of utility in Nagisa's crossdressing such as needing some sort of disguise or simply that he's comfortable with flexibility in gender expression. Dusky or whoever's seen more episodes of Assassination Classroom than me, would your (non-presumptive) assessment of Nagisa be non-binary or possibly AFAB, but living as a boy?
|
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
DuskyPredator
Posts: 15457 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
|
|||||||
|
Not to spoil too much about Nagisa, if you have not seen the rest of the series, but Nagisa's gender is something that becomes more relevant later in the series, regarding his own plotline. For a little bit of a damper, his androgyny is actually a bit of a complex of his, and at least a relevant element, and not exactly consensual on his part. It gets revealed as something of a trope that I think can be more harmful than helpful in regards to possible trans characters: spoiler[he was kind of raised as a girl, and would rather be seen as his assigned at birth gender].
Not that I dislike the character, I can think of him fitting well into the gender non-conforming. I probably can even head canon that his general androgynous characteristics could lead him to discovering that he might be non-binary after he sorts out his complex. He is in a number of ways similar to Hideyoshi from Baka Test. But I do feel conflict at especially claiming a character is a gender when their plot goes a bit into that character being able to declare themselves another gender. I have had similar problems with Rimuru from Reincarnated as a Slime. While technically his body is sexless, and or I think he could choose to give it a sex, he still seems to prefer going by male, regardless of how other characters seem to enjoy forcing him into feminine clothes. A character with the body could have been better enby representation if the character claimed something like a non-binary gender. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
P€|\||§_|\/|ast@
Posts: 3498 Location: IN your nightmares |
|
|||||||
|
Thanks for not spoiling anything about Assassination Classroom, it is a series I want to pick up and finish sometime.
I haven't seen Reincarnated as a Slime but Rimuru was a character that interested me because image portals with both NSFW and safe images of Rimuru are predominantly of a cute girl with small breasts and listed as female. But I knew that Rimuru is the reincarnated form of the male protagonist who died in his world. Like you pointed out as a slime, Rimuru is a being that lacks any form of sex characteristic. What I read about him taking on a human form is he's only human as a mimicry ability, like there are still no organs, bones and the inner hollow area is filled in magically to give additional mass. But the mimicry has limits, he can only copy an existing being (in this case a woman named Shizu who died afterwards) and it will end up being sort of a hybrid of his slime form and whatever or whoever he's mimicking. Hence that girly, blue-haired androgynous person with an existing male gender identity. There's obviously a lack of genitals of any kind plus because of the limits to the mimicry, I guess the undeniable choice of swimming attire would be a girl's bikini 
|
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
DuskyPredator
Posts: 15457 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
|
|||||||
I hope I am not just remembering some sort of doujin, but I think the implication is that if he chose to he could give himself either type of genitals, but it is just an unnecessary. In terms of presumed proper wear in regards to androgyny, it is maybe an interesting question. Specifically that I think it can be something like a lack of masculinity or something in a character that gets presumed for female appearance, especially in a more fetish like side that many anime fit into. I remember a joke from Baka Test where Hideyoshi gets in trouble for being indecent because he wasn't wearing a swimming top. Something like only masculine chests can be bare. Although back to Nagisa of Assassination Classroom, there is a pretty iconic scene with him in only swimming trunks. But maybe I am talking a bit too much nonsense, since I also thought of Kashima from Nozaki-kun that did do the androgynous swimsuit from the AFAB direction. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
Professor Nihil
 Posts: 27 |
|
|||||||
|
Nagisa and Dororo come to mind to me as well.
My spouse is trans and this topic is close to the heart. Marulk from Made In Abyss is also cool this way. I didn't really like the forced -trans Yakuza idols from Back Street Girls. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
P€|\||§_|\/|ast@
Posts: 3498 Location: IN your nightmares |
|
|||||||
|
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
DuskyPredator
Posts: 15457 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
|
|||||||
|
I have been thinking that it might be worth mentioning some of the characters relevant in this topic for currently airing in the Fall 2021 cour.
First, a dishonourable mentions for The Vampire Dies in No Time with Senya Siriski, and random unnamed older guy from The Great Jahy Will Not Be Defeated. The general idea the same, in having a super masculine character, being in some level of crossdressing that we the audience are to find upsetting and perverse. It isn't like I haven't laughed at these sorts of jokes before, in fact the timing in one of the jokes in Jahy did make me laugh in leading us to believe it was the magical girl, before showing that it is some random dude dressed up as one. In general I think there be some indication of some jokes that run especially homophobic, that are still rather prevalent. The Vampire Dies in No Time has been especially heavy in some homophobic stuff, which hasn't helped with by itself been hit and miss with jokes, but granted again it did actually manage to make me laugh with at least one case of a character forced into drag at their expense, which I am trying not to feel too conflicted over how it might be problematic. But for actual examples, the first is Leslie Blanc from Deep Insanity: The Lost Child. Now, perhaps I am not big in the know of what general consensus is with the character, but my reading of them is that she is a transgender woman. She has some masculine features such as in her face, is voice by a man, but also seems to have some feminine features such as what can be made out as breasts and is pretty vocal about being a woman. The general sense I got in the show was from an implication that the characters entered dangerous program to get something out of the program, with what Leslie having gotten being unsaid, which I kind of thought was perhaps transitioning. There is though this sort of air of concern with Leslie's character, that some of her excessive flirting and iterations of things like women's intuition, could match certain unflattering depictions of a general queer man. Generally that her depiction might be meant to be a joke that we are meant to laugh at the gay guy who is not fooling anyone in pretending to be a woman to pick up guys, not helped by some subtitles I have seen that use he/him pronouns for her. At the same time sort of conflicting from the fact Leslie actually holds a position of power in the team, and actually rather taken seriously when she doesn't seem to be actively trying to make a joke. One could actually read into her character actually being something a bit empowering, that she shouldn't have to be 100% passing to be valid and taken seriously in her position. I actually was kind of liking the character as we went into seeing her as more serious and comfortable with who she is, up until a certain trope comes into affect which is not that great nowadays when it is singled out on the one queer character. Next for probably the more serious one of the season, Ryuuji "Yuka" Ayukawa from The Blue Period. Actually a bit of a case where I was a bit of a dumby in not paying enough attention to the first episode, and missed that they were meant to be AMAB with a generally more feminine appearance, other than noticing that that despite that they sometimes wore a male uniform and sometimes a female one, or a mix and match. Yuka has kind of sat in an interesting position, as they clearly seem to be messing around with their gender, while our main character started off by writing them off as a weird 'crossdresser', where they have managed to sit in a place as the quirky student that has managed to get away with playing with their presentation by their sheer charisma. The audience might even be expected to just see them as weird in following the main character's view who can only see them as a guy. The more interesting parts of Yuka's character I think existed in what one might call reading between the lines, that things are not actually perfect in their life, and there are some strong insecurities there. What has kind of missed might be something like a more Western idea of identity, as it has kind of felt like no one has tried to pin down if Yuka is a trans girl, or just a crossdressing boy. Really I think it came down to that Yuka really doesn't know themselves, that they are in a time of questioning how they feel and what feels right, and perhaps in general feels constrained by the types of labels and expectations of what others think they should be because of how they might look. At this point of watching (episode 10), I am thinking that it isn't right to quite to just decide where on the binary they fit, and being a case that perhaps they are in flux of figuring themselves out. The third character and show is Najimi Osama from Komi Can't Communicate. This also seems to be a character that is open to much debate, where early on the main character has noted some confusion that in middle school they were certainly a boy, but suddenly in high school they are wearing a skirt and saying they were always a girl. That is with the addition of a male student uniform tie, and when a guy suddenly confesses to them they quickly try to turn him down by saying that they are actually a boy. The disagreement seem to exist in those who say that they said they are a girl so from that alone they are a girl, whether trans or not, that they are likely amab and according to them that means crossdressing boy (usually with less PC words used. And then there is the third category that see the general ambiguity around Najimi that point to them as being a rare non-binary character. I myself fit into the third category that see ambiguity being such a key part tied to a character's gender, even if the heavier implications is probably amab with a more feminine presentation, as representation of non-binary. I think considering that most people don't even get what non-binary is, where most people confused seem to be focusing on figuring out their junk, I think the character exists best not defined by the binary. Granted that by following the character seems to be met in fandom by the sort of jokes and memes of saying they are their own gender or a funny mystery, the sort of jokes that followed Hideyoshi. Buy as time has gone on as a coming to terms with my own non-binary gender has just kind of annoyed me more, where possible ideas of not being binary get made as just a joke of a crazy abstract character. And lastly is Eve Louise from Visual Prison. I might honestly say that this could be a mostly me thing, since pretty much all the vampires in the show are just guys, and in the particular type of culture Eve's sort of more feminine presentation could be seen as pretty normal for boy bands. Even with the feminine name of Eve, there is another guy with the name Elizabeth, who generally seems to be more obviously a dude. The thing is though that despite that, Eve does come across as very androgynous, and I have noted that the subtitles I have seen seem to have been clued in on not using gendered pronouns for them. Within the context of the show, with all the dudes that do general bishounen stuff, Eve does kind of stand out as more almost maternal. A sort of interesting aspect did show up in the most recent episode, where Eve spoiler[suddenly shifted into an alternate person that exists in their body, being pretty explicitly a woman, and being more obviously feminine]. The obvious thing for me to jump on was of spoiler[genderfluidity, even if by magical means of a separate person possession, the difference that existed there from Eve and Eve from the more obvious male characters], kind of did more to convince me of them as non-binary. Which I have kind of thought as cool with the character. Where at the least they don't usually conform to ideas of male presentation, and at best they intentionally avoid putting themselves into one of the gender binaries. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
Piglet the Grate
 Posts: 549 Location: North America |
|
|||||||
It is not unknown for authors to put things in their works that are intended to remain a mystery, so there may be no definitive answers to what set of chromosomes and what sexual preferences Najimi Osama has. Possible that the author has not even decided what the answers are.
When a limited segment of society (such as academia) decides to adopt a new meaning to an existing word, or coin a new term, they should assume some obligation to explain the meaning until if/when it becomes common usage. To me binary, unless explained otherwise, is base 2 arithmetic, as I learned over 40 years ago when the first home computers became available. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
DuskyPredator
Posts: 15457 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
|
|||||||
And those questions of chromosomes or sexual preference means almost nothing on the topic of their gender identity. Most people are not going to see their chromosomes.
You are right that binary means 2, and in regard to gender it generally means male and female. A non-binary person then identifies as not that binary, neither a male or female. [Edit: fixed quote tabs. Errinundra.] |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
Piglet the Grate
Posts: 549 Location: North America |
|
|||||||
Ignoring the vanishingly rare persons with XXY or XYY chromosomes, and those whose mothers were subjected to conditions that caused non-normal fetal hormone levels that result in hermaphrodite development to some extent, everyone is born either XY as a biological male or XX as a biological female with the resulting reproductive roles. I think it is reasonable to assume that most persons are aware of which biological sex they are. What their preferences for romantic/sexual relationships and what they self-identify as are obviously separate matters (how much is due to biology and how much is due to social conditioning is beyond any relevance to Komi Can't Communicate). Najimi Osama would presumably have XY chromosomes and male reproductive organs or XX chromosomes and female reproductive organs. At least in the anime, we have no positive indication of what Najimi Osama is biologically. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
DuskyPredator
Posts: 15457 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
|
|||||||
|
Thanks Errinundra, my previous post was on mobile during a break, I figured that I might have not done the quote thing the best.
Look, Piglet the Grate, my concern really isn't about what Najimi's sex may or may not be, but their presentation, perhaps what you might assume by looking at them, probably fully covered. Even if an anime character had sex characteristics and stated chromosomes, of a certain sex, that doesn't change them from the gender that they identify as, it might make them a trans girl rather than a cis girl, but they would still be a girl. My point still stands that for most people there is no way they can see another's chromosomes, rather than making a likely guess. And Still, I don't think you are understanding why I mentioned Najimi here. I mentioned them because of there is a general ambiguity to their gender, where they even mix and match their uniform. Sure in their introductory episode they said they were a girl, while in the same episode saying they are a boy. They could be either sex and there would still androgyny to their character. Me saying that they might be non-binary, has nothing to do with what they have in their pants.
I am not sure why you are bringing it up then. Other than perhaps an opinion that maybe you think trans people only exist because of "social conditioning"? |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
Piglet the Grate
Posts: 549 Location: North America |
|
|||||||
The biological characteristics (unless surgically altered) would be pretty obvious in a high school locker room or college dormitory group showers, or public baths, no? Or do contemporary Japanese high schools provide completely private changing areas and mixed P.E. classes? Even with clothes on, it is usually evident unless dressed for outdoor winter conditions.
My sole intended point is both the biological sex and gender presentation of Najimi Osama are ambiguous.
The argument of "nature versus nurture" goes back much further in time (19th Century) than any public discussion of gender (1950s) and covers much more than gender identification. But it seems we are communicating at cross-purposes and getting off topic, so I am happy to bow out here. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
Errinundra
Moderator
 Posts: 6523 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
|
|||||||
|
Conversation is OK so far, but please be aware that it's a sensitive topic. Words can do damage.
|
||||||||
|
||||||||
|
P€|\||§_|\/|ast@
Posts: 3498 Location: IN your nightmares |
|
|||||||
Yeah, I wanna back-up what Dusky said about gender presentation. This is the key here. We can argue all day about what people have or don't have under their clothing, but the point is some people are not comfortable with those aspects of themselves. Think of the discomfort of feeling like your own body is somehow mismatched from your identity. Clothing is one way we modify our appearance to help others understand our own perceptions of our identity. When you are so worked up about chromosomes, genitals or biology, you are basically robbing people of the dignity that comes with self-expression through fashion and wardrobe choices. Furthermore, no its not reasonable to assume merely MOST people are aware of which biological sex they are because being trans or non-binary doesn't make anyone LESS aware of that fact. If we lived in a society with no association between what clothing is for men or women, then various communicative gestures indicating your biological sex would be more commonplace. But its specifically because clothing is gendered and inseparable from a gender binary that non-binary and nonconforming people can be who they are. |
||||||||
|
||||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group