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EP. REVIEW: Don't Toy with Me, Miss Nagatoro


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dm
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Joined: 24 Sep 2010
Posts: 777
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:31 pm Reply with quote
I'm impressed that Christopher was able to find multiple levels going on in this anime. It's almost as though it's not just the ludicrous variation on a manzai act that I would have dismissed it as.

However, I have to differ with the review on one thing:

Quote:
Compared to Senpai, these guys actually have more self-confidence than a groundhog, so Nagatoro couldn't reduce them to tears even if she wanted to.


Christopher, what do you think those guys were going "to the toilet" to do?

That was my favorite scene (probably because it wasn't bullying as much as it was cutting) --- these guys weren't even flies for Nagatoro to swat, she just brushes them off, pretty much hitting them where they were weakest, sending them running off to the toilet to rebuild their psyches.

I think this scene is also anime original?
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AnimeFlyz



Joined: 31 Aug 2015
Posts: 259
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:55 pm Reply with quote
dm wrote:
I'm impressed that Christopher was able to find multiple levels going on in this anime. It's almost as though it's not just the ludicrous variation on a manzai act that I would have dismissed it as.

However, I have to differ with the review on one thing:

Quote:
Compared to Senpai, these guys actually have more self-confidence than a groundhog, so Nagatoro couldn't reduce them to tears even if she wanted to.


Christopher, what do you think those guys were going "to the toilet" to do?

That was my favorite scene (probably because it wasn't bullying as much as it was cutting) --- these guys weren't even flies for Nagatoro to swat, she just brushes them off, pretty much hitting them where they were weakest, sending them running off to the toilet to rebuild their psyches.

I think this scene is also anime original?


If you are talking about the restaurant part being anime original, it is not. Its from Chapter 6. Also the anime combined Chapter 4 (Sempai reading that fanservice manga) and Chapter 5 (Nagatoro attempting Vampire play) into one chapter by taking Sempai's manga and making it Vampire themed.
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scowler



Joined: 30 May 2009
Posts: 80
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:13 pm Reply with quote
Remember that Nagatoro first takes notice of Senpai when she sees his drawn manga. She sees that, while the panels are clearly a dorky self-insert power fantasy, there’s also real passion and earnestness put into the work.

This is contrasted later at the restaurant, when she listens to the music created by Overconfident Boy #1... her reaction is that it doesn’t sound passionately made or in earnest.
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DirtyCircle



Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Posts: 112
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:40 am Reply with quote
I have to agree that there was a misreading of the family restaurant scene. I’ve heard that further down the line, Nagatoro is portrayed more as having feelings for Senpai so perhaps I’m misreading but I think the second episode is subtly trying to establish that there is more going on than pandering to submissives who enjoy bullying. On the blind date, she ruthlessly destroys the two guys but it’s explicitly different than her actions with Senpai. In the first episode, she was too much and I wasn’t sure if I could continue on but I am getting the feeling that he is special and she is putting in an effort towards him. We, the watcher, are supposed to understand this. Hell, I thought he was even starting to get this himself at one point.

Now, I haven’t read the manga and maybe I’m going to get disappointed but I’m getting a sense that it’s kinda similar to Uzaki, Nagatoro likes Senpai and going out of her way for his attention. Granted, it’s a different approach as Nagatoro seems to be a bit more impulsive and ill-conceived. I thought for sure that we were supposed to read that she was relieved that Senpai couldn’t guess where her nipples are. She got out of there not because of her message but she was scared of how she may react to being touched by someone she is crushing on.
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Hiroki not Takuya



Joined: 17 Apr 2012
Posts: 1779
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:43 am Reply with quote
Well, my dear Mr. Ferris, Mr Dupree was given the dubious honor of reviewing something not fully to his liking (I think) so now this one is your turn. However, I for one was curious to see this reviewed to see if it was as bad over time as some were suggesting and if it had redeeming qualities that might make it fun or interesting to watch at some point without having to slog through the first episodes.
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Yuvelir



Joined: 06 Jan 2015
Posts: 1254
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:58 am Reply with quote
And this is what I meant. By this point it should be clear that what Nagatoro does is very personal, it's meant more as playful and intimate teasing rather than conventional bullying (couldn't sell it to a wide audience if Senpai were actually tormented by this, right?). Even if there's a skewed power dynamic dictated entirely by their personalities and experiences.

Quote:
The presentation of the show coupled with its material makes it a surprising example of how the setups for comedy and horror are built out of a lot of the same framework

I love this line Laughing

Something about the author, before uploading their first Nagatoro "pilot" skit, 774 was well known for their ero-guro doujins. In case that says anything about their psyche.
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Takkun4343



Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Posts: 1155
Location: Gahanna, Ohio
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:21 am Reply with quote
Yuvelir wrote:
Something about the author, before uploading their first Nagatoro "pilot" skit, 774 was well known for their ero-guro doujins. In case that says anything about their psyche.

Ah yes, Nanashi's pre-Nagatoro works. I knew them for that long before Nagatoro became a thing. Hell, when they posted the first proto-Nagatoro image set, I was honestly surprised at how tame it was compared to their other stuff (ignoring the whole verbal abuse thing).
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paworksfan



Joined: 16 Mar 2021
Posts: 9
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:48 pm Reply with quote
Deleted due to my being an idiot.

Last edited by paworksfan on Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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lossthief
ANN Reviewer


Joined: 14 Dec 2012
Posts: 869
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:57 pm Reply with quote
^Sir, this is a Wendy's
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Horsefellow



Joined: 01 Jan 2020
Posts: 243
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:53 pm Reply with quote
paworksfan wrote:
I guess we can look at the 3 works in this area that have gotten recent adaptations: Teasing Master Takagi-san, Uzaki-Chan Wants to Hang Out, and now Don't Bully Me Miss Nagatoro.

A lot of handwringing here with these shonen works for depicting girls bullying guys spoiler[who later become their boyfriends - and in at least Takagi-san's case - husbands] and what it says about the mindset and character of the demographic that consumes them. Sure, go ahead and kick around the shonen fans while completely ignoring that this type of thing is much more pervasive in shojo, josei, yuri and BL works where the bullying far worse, regularly including physical and sexual assault as well as severe psychological and emotional abuse. Take Koikimo. Note that most of the bashers of that show either downplay its being josei like AnimeFeminist or ignore it altogether.

...


I'm not sure which anime feminists you're seeing but a lot of the self-proclaimed ones I see are pretty open about their hated for most shoujo and josei titles always being filled with problematic tropes they hate like age gap and non-consensual romance, as well as general issues like gender roles and stereotypes.

Obviously the appeal of Nagatoro is guys want a cute girl to bully and sexually tease us. The same is true for women and their series where it's a guy pursuing the female lead aggressively or in similar unhealthy ways. That's the appeal. Some people are obviously going to try to kink police people but that's true for anything. Rest assured, women's fantasy are trashed just as much by those people as stuff for guys is. The only reason Koikimo isn't getting as much discourse as Nagatoro is because josei romance is generally not as popular as these kinds of shows for men.
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paworksfan



Joined: 16 Mar 2021
Posts: 9
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:32 pm Reply with quote
Horsefellow wrote:
I'm not sure which anime feminists you're seeing
...


Whoa whoa ... I wasn't singling out for criticism feminist anime reviewers or criticizing feminists of any sort in any way. My reference to that in my comment was The Anime Feminist blog. I have seen that blog cited on ANN before so I presumed that it was well known. My mistake.

I do agree that lots of people point out the problematic shojo and josei tropes in general. Comic Book Resources does a great job. I was speaking more in terms of this site's treatment of the issue of "less than perfect but not utterly toxic" male protagonists in general.

Edited:

Horsefellow wrote:
The only reason Koikimo isn't getting as much discourse as Nagatoro is because josei romance is generally not as popular as these kinds of shows for men.


I don't think that the "girl teases boy" anime is that popular either. Like I mentioned earlier, shonen is mostly action. Most of the romance that does exist is harem stuff. Which I admit is very problematic. And I foolishly forgot about when I wrote my initial post. Which is bizarre because harems are where most of the potato-kuns are.

So the initial response was right ... this is an Arby's after all. Guess I will go hammer my complaint then.

lossthief wrote:
^Sir, this is a Wendy's


You are right. Original post taken care of.


Last edited by paworksfan on Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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RetroWinnipeg



Joined: 07 Dec 2010
Posts: 10
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:24 pm Reply with quote
My unconventional take: this show reminds me of Garfield and Friends, except that the target audience is teenage boys/young adult men. Just change the cat to a wild, hot girl.
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HAL14



Joined: 01 Apr 2018
Posts: 331
Location: Heart of africa
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:41 pm Reply with quote
paworksfan wrote:

Horsefellow wrote:
The only reason Koikimo isn't getting as much discourse as Nagatoro is because josei romance is generally not as popular as these kinds of shows for men.


I don't think that the "girl teases boy" anime is that popular either.


It really is. Two of the three you mentioned (Uzaki and Nagataro) along with similar works like Sono bisque doll are very popular even though they don't feature harems. Frankly, the most popular romcoms recently have either been one-one relationships (Kaguya-sama, Bunny girl-senpai) or love triangles (SNAFU).
Besides, as @horsefellow said: Nagataro is (probably) aimed at men while Koimo is (probably) aimed at women. Content aside, their demographics play a major role in popularity and coverage.
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all-tsun-and-no-dere
ANN Reviewer


Joined: 06 Jul 2015
Posts: 360
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:57 pm Reply with quote
paworksfan wrote:
Horsefellow wrote:
I'm not sure which anime feminists you're seeing
...


Whoa whoa ... I wasn't singling out for criticism feminist anime reviewers or criticizing feminists of any sort in any way. My reference to that in my comment was The Anime Feminist blog. I have seen that blog cited on ANN before so I presumed that it was well known. My mistake.


Hi there! I'm actually an editor at Anime Feminist as well as a writer here; so is Mercedez, who wrote the KoiKimo premiere review. She does in fact mention that the series is josei in the review. We also have a number of articles that are critical of shoujo and josei manga and how they handle issues of consent and abusive relationships. Since you mentioned the site first, I don't think this will get me in trouble for plugging, but here's a couple for you to check out:

https://www.animefeminist.com/fave-problematic-kare-kano/

https://www.animefeminist.com/feature-fantasies-and-nightmares-in-the-reverse-harem-genre/

https://www.animefeminist.com/feature-harmful-gimmick-the-normalization-of-abuse-in-shoujo-manga/

Continuing this discussion would probably be going too far off topic, but please feel free to DM me if you have any questions.
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 14708
Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:08 am Reply with quote
By episode 3, I think that her affection for him is pretty obvious, that her bringing him in front of her friends was more than him just being a toy. Her friends were actually kind of confused when she would not let them lay a finger on him, and I think mostly left the teasing of him being cute rather than just saying "pathetic". Although one of them seemed to get a clue. There is also the fact that it transitioned straight into her trying to have him stick up a bit better at least bouncing off of her. She also seemed a little down when he was defining their relationship a bit less.

Of course she has a sadistic side, and she can't herself when he gets certain ways.

I was also thinking that him accidentally touching her boob was better done than it was in Uzaki-chan, which I think at times could be a bit more exploitive in scenes where she might have an accidental grope.
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