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I like the general direction that the show is going with... Those boob and butt shots longer a bit too long. Had the misfortune of someone walking in while the opening sequence of the episode was happening and getting a judgy face about the content I watch Mad

I hope Sayu gets more independent. I believe Goto lied when she said she was in a relationship for 5 years though

HAL14 wrote:

The reason the age difference is problematic is that it's a part of the larger power imbalance between them. She is an emotionally immature runaway minor with no money or apparent friends or family that she can turn to. It would barely be better if she was 18 but it's definitely worse that she's not, cause at seventeen (depending on where you live) you're not legally able to make certain decisions for yourself and it doesn't matter if the person is only "a few months below 18". That's like saying you shouldn't get fined for driving w/out a license because you're driving to the place to get your license.
Anyway, a romantic/sexual relationship b/w someone who, by law, can make decisions for themselves and someone who can't is inherently problematic.
There are places that allow you to date or even marry a minor if you have consent from their parents. So, yeah it's really not good to be in a relationship where legally you have no or less power.

Oh, for sure. She is a girl, not a woman. She has a lot of growing to do before she should be in any relationship with anyone. And as I was telling my partner last night, she's going to have those emotional scars for the rest of her life no matter what happens to her going forward that's never going to change. Getting a part-time job and all of those things are good but it's going to take a long long time before she'll be ready to be in a relationship with someone where the power dynamic is somewhat even.

Of course the protagonist doesn't love her. How could he? It's like saying you love a 13-year-old and you want to be in a relationship with her. It wouldn't make any sense. If you take the sex away what do you have left with her? She offers him nothing intellectually whatsoever. Perhaps emotionally he gets a sense of companionship from her but is that by itself enough to build a relationship on? No. Look at the woman he's courting. She's beautiful and all of that whatever but also she's intelligent she's in control she has power and she could be an equal or maybe even slightly dominant in a relationship. Take the sex away and a kid absolutely holds no interest for him whatsoever. What a great character what a great person he is. I love this show.

I've been way behind on my anime watching lately (so many shows, so little time...) but I'm glad I gave this one a chance. I first learned about it after seeing One Peace books put the manga up for pre-order online. I like rom coms with unusual set-ups and this one definitely caught my eye with its premise.

The first three episodes have been very enjoyable, with the situation given appropriate weight and seriousness, but with enough levity around the edges of the storyline to keep it from getting too bogged down with SERIOUS DRAMA.

And put me down as someone hoping Yoshida and Sayu end up together. Gotou-san is a good foil for our main character's emotional conflicts and I like the bubbly new co-worker who couldn't be less obvious in her feelings, but I've enjoyed watching Yoshida and Sayu bond as he does all the right things and lets it be clear that the help being given is a two-way street.

I also have an age gap with my wife, of 7 years. She was 24 and I was 31 when we first started dating and so the age gap here doesn't bother me as much as it seems to some other people. He's not raising her from being a little girl like in Bunny Drop and they're not siblings like in Koi Kaze.

At this stage of the story, Sayu's emotionally immature/insecure and obviously has some growing up to do, even if she is, as she points out, "busty for a high school girl." I hope the storyline follows her growth into being more her own person than the person she thinks others want her to be, eventually circling back around to Yoshida, who's realized his own feelings for her in the meantime. Or not. The show has me genuinely in suspense about what direction it will take and either way, I'm looking forward to seeing where the story goes.

Differences in Age is an amazing story telling device. Both in older women, younger man, and of course what we are shown.

There are many countries and even states in the US where 16 year old teenagers can AND are married off. I do not agree with this, and I am not attracted to teenagers. AM I one of these man who like much younger women? Yes. But this particular version I would find disgusting. Just as I find disgusting any teacher who abuses his implied power over a student to have sex.

Otherwise, James' review of the first 3 episodes is exactly on target.

I would very much like to have ZERO fanservice in this show and have it treat the subject matter more seriously. But maybe, just maybe the fanservice will draw in those who would leer at such subject matter and are capable of having such an inappropriate relationship and have them learn something from this show? One hopes....

I like this so far, but I can't help but feel like it might be a less good version of After the Rain ... guess we'll see where it goes!

Regarding the term enjo kousai, there's a specific term for girls who are looking for board and lodging and intending to pay with their bodies - kamimachi.

Last edited by Redbeard 101 on Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:01 pm; edited 2 times in total

Swissman wrote:

Being a high school teacher may explain your personal uncomfortableness with such a premise, but I do hope that you're not insinuating any kind of "inherent problem" with shows such as Koikimo or Higehiro. I'm a junior high school teacher and I work with teenagers every day myself. I don't have any problems with a show like Koikimo because I realize that's it's just 1) a dumb comedy at heart which doesn't want and doesn't need to be taken seriously at all, and 2) it's anime.

And you should realize that just because YOU don't have a problem with these shows, or their premise/material, does not mean that others feel the same. People can have different opinions and reactions towards material other than your own. Then you mention underaged girls selling themselves for dates, or sex, as it relates to compensatory dating, and equate that to often being the girls just trying to expand their own social circles. That comes off as a nice way to excuse older men preying on, or looking for, underaged girls. Interesting that you seem to think that, especially since you touch on James's uncomfortableness of the material due to being a teacher (chiding him for it basically), but yet have no problem with such material yourself while teaching even younger children. Not exactly painting a good picture here.

Let me be clear to everyone, as 2 posts who tried to start this debate were removed, this is not going to turn into a debate on the age of consent. Thank you.

Netero wrote:

Regarding the term enjo kousai, there's a specific term for girls who are looking for board and lodging and intending to pay with their bodies - kamimachi.

Interesting... I did not even know this went on at all. I must live a sheltered life.

I'm not sure if she has a chance, but I already like the junior coworker. She has her work cut out for her, since she's neither older nor busty, but she's a)very interested, b) very understanding, both to Sayu in her talk and later to this whole situation.

Camera was again bit too pervy in episode 3, hopefully that's the last time as Sayu seems to finally get the picture.

I don't care much about workplace stuff that dm mentioned - they can just ask company for little move around to get rid of direct boss/underling relationship, and I think people in the States tend to be creeply way to obsessed with so called "danger" of workplace romance. In my workplace (C/E Europe) there are several married couples without any problem, and it's normal for people to find other people in their social circle - which often means basically just work - attractive as partners.

Psycho 101 wrote:

Swissman wrote:

Being a high school teacher may explain your personal uncomfortableness with such a premise, but I do hope that you're not insinuating any kind of "inherent problem" with shows such as Koikimo or Higehiro. I'm a junior high school teacher and I work with teenagers every day myself. I don't have any problems with a show like Koikimo because I realize that's it's just 1) a dumb comedy at heart which doesn't want and doesn't need to be taken seriously at all, and 2) it's anime.

And you should realize that just because YOU don't have a problem with these shows, or their premise/material, does not mean that others feel the same.

And what exactly gives YOU the idea that I wouldn't know this by myself?

Quote:

People can have different opinions and reactions towards material other than your own. Then you mention underaged girls selling themselves for dates, or sex, as it relates to compensatory dating, and equate that to often being the girls just trying to expand their own social circles. That comes off as a nice way to excuse older men preying on, or looking for, underaged girls.

Look here, I know what I'm talking about. A) Enjo kosai as a theme was part of my master thesis in Japanese Studies about Murakami Ryû's novel Love & Pop and Anno Hideaki's movie adaption. B) I never said or hinted at that Enjo kosai = underaged girls selling themselves for sex. Stop assuming something that I never said.

Quote:

Interesting that you seem to think that, especially since you touch on James's uncomfortableness of the material due to being a teacher (chiding him for it basically), but yet have no problem with such material yourself while teaching even younger children. Not exactly painting a good picture here.

Please spare me your condescending moralizing, thank you. I'm a 45 old guy trying to explain my disagreement with a point of view/review which thinks it needs to warn it readers about the allegedly inherent problems of such stories, when it's all due to personal feelings/morals, and James mentioning his discomfort with being a teacher as a reason was a bit excessive in my eyes. *To me*, it came off as an excuse.

Swissman wrote:

Please spare me your condescending moralizing, thank you. I'm a 45 old guy trying to explain my disagreement with a point of view/review which thinks it needs to warn it readers about the allegedly inherent problems of such stories, when it's all due to personal feelings/morals, and James mentioning his discomfort with being a teacher as a reason was a bit excessive in my eyes. *To me*, it came off as an excuse.

Doesn't take a teacher to have a moral issue with the idea of children dating adults, especially once you add in a transactional nature and the sexual attitudes around that. You may for some reason think morals are some unnecessary part of life, but I'm sure plenty of your own students are much safer not believing you on that.

Swissman wrote:

No, not at all. Enjo Kosai or "compensated dating" is a term which was mostly rampant in the mid- to late 90s' tabloids and newspapers aimed at male readers, who were shocked to find out that school girls, which could be their own daughters, had gained sexual independence and allegedly did things which were not "proper behavior" for girls their age. In reality, enjo kosai was a way for school girls to meet new people, usually men, which didn't belong to the circle of family and school. It was/is a way for them to expand their social relationships (not necessarily sexual). It was a behavior scandalized in aforementioned media aimed at men.

I would like a source for this, cause it doesn't read like any of the understanding of enjo kosai in other cultural sources, especially contemporary ones. Especially the expanding social circles angle, cause why would school girls be expanding their social circles by meeting older men?

helln00 wrote:

Swissman wrote:

No, not at all. Enjo Kosai or "compensated dating" is a term which was mostly rampant in the mid- to late 90s' tabloids and newspapers aimed at male readers, who were shocked to find out that school girls, which could be their own daughters, had gained sexual independence and allegedly did things which were not "proper behavior" for girls their age. In reality, enjo kosai was a way for school girls to meet new people, usually men, which didn't belong to the circle of family and school. It was/is a way for them to expand their social relationships (not necessarily sexual). It was a behavior scandalized in aforementioned media aimed at men.

I would like a source for this, cause it doesn't read like any of the understanding of enjo kosai in other cultural sources, especially contemporary ones. Especially the expanding social circles angle, cause why would school girls be expanding their social circles by meeting older men?

CASSING-NAKAMURA, Katja (1999). Die Darstellung von Enjo Kōsai in japanischen Zeitschriften oder die Skandalisierung eines Phänomens. In: Deutsches Institut für Japanforschung der Phillip Franz von Siebold Stiftung (Hrsg.): Japanstudien - Band 11. München: Iudicium, S. 211-233.

KREITZ-SANDBERG, Susanne (1998): Sexuelle Revolution im Japan der 90er Jahre? Neue Formen der kommerzialisierten Sexualität von burusera bis Enjo Kousai [sic]. In: Akademischer Arbeitskreis Japan, Österreichische Japan-Gesellschaft für Kunst und Wissenschaft (Hrsg.): Minikomi Nr.4 (Dezember). Wien, S. 5-15.

NAKAGAWA, Narumi (2002): 'Enjo kōsai' wa baibaishun dewa nai? – Seisa naki identity o motomete. In: OKANO,Yukie/HASEGAWA, Kei/WATANABE, Sumiko (Hrsg.): Baibaishun to nihonbungaku. Tokyo: Tōkyōdō Shuppan, S. 330-344.
中川成美「【援助交際】は買売春ではない？−性差無きアイデンティティーを求めて」岡野幸江／長谷川啓／渡邊澄子(発行人)『買売春と日本文学』東京堂出版2002, 330-344.

UENO, Shizuko (2003): Self-determination on sexuality? Commercialization of sex among teenage girls in Japan. In: CHEN, Kuan-Hsing/CHUA, Beng-Huat (Hrsg.): Inter-Asia Cultural Studies, Vol.4, number 2, August 2003. Routledge: Taylor & Francis Group, S. 317-324.

ATastySub wrote:

Doesn't take a teacher to have a moral issue with the idea of children dating adults, especially once you add in a transactional nature and the sexual attitudes around that. You may for some reason think morals are some unnecessary part of life, but I'm sure plenty of your own students are much safer not believing you on that.

Thank you for sharing your personal view on this moral issue to us and making me an evil guy with no morals. I hope you feel superior now.

Are we having a debate about forced marriages happening in real life here, or having different views about the moral ambiguity of stories in some japanese cartoons with fictional characters?

I'm a bit sorry I raised the topic of enjou kousai.

I only did so because I was wondering to what extent it was media hype at the end of the last century, and to what extent it is a real social issue today.

Even if media hype (as long as it's not a 20th Century relic), I thought it might be a part of the context in which the characters of this show are behaving and acting, and partially color their views on what they see and do, because it lies on a spectrum of behaviors that people can engage in.

Or, if it is a 20th Century relic, perhaps it's irrelevant.

@dm

Don't be sorry, you brought up a valid point of discussion. It's rather me who should apologize. I'm a quite direct person when I disagree with someone about a topic I'm familiar with, which makes me look confrontional, even though I don't mean to be it. So I'm sorry for that. In case of Higehiro, be both were enlightened in this discussion that there exists a more contemporary term to describe Sayu's behavior and pointing to a more recent (?) societal phenomenon in Japan.

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