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Crunchyroll Originals Have Been A Disaster


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Horsefellow



Joined: 01 Jan 2020
Posts: 262
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:46 pm Reply with quote
octopodpie wrote:
You don't have to quit watching anime if you like representation or LGBTQ characters or whatever. That stuff has been in anime forever and the idea that it's not or that it's a minority is ridiculous. The (two) examples you cited are series where LGBTQ issues are a central point but you're cherry-picking to an extreme and also making a value judgment based on JP streaming links...are we going to ignore data from CR and Funimation entirely?

Queer stuff has always been in anime. Sometimes it's problematic, like the okama stereotype or lesbian tragedy couple but it's incredibly common even when it's not central to the plot. Like, it's kinda weird you left Wonder Egg Priority off your haphazard thesis statement. Or Dragon Maid. Or all the subtextual yuri stuff in KyoAni works that sell like crazy. Are we pretending that yuri and yaoi markets don't exist either here?

Also if the answer to "the children's cartoon of She-Ra isn't sexy anymore, watch this other children's cartoon (PreCure) for sexy women"... Question I mean there's doujinshi for everything but I don't think the majority of anime fans look to PreCure for sexy anime girls. Remind me (don't) if you were the same guy who talked about getting off to Sailor Moon a few threads ago and that's why it can't be 'feminist'?


I would argue there's an important difference between earnest LGBT representation and kink fuel. They're not entirely mutually exclusive or anything, but there's a reason no one complains about Madoka and Homura, or Kanna and Riko, or Yuu and Touko; because they're always conventionally attractive characters in cute or sexual situations. Plenty of homophobic people consume same-sex content because they find it hot, but still harbor opposing beliefs when it comes to actual same-sex couples in the real world. Generally, western animation avoids all that. None of the stuff in Steven Universe is done for the male gaze or fetish pandering. Nor She-Ra, The Owl House, Kipo, The Loud House, or any of those other shows that have come out the past decade with LGBT couples and characters. I find that to be the huge difference between the two. The reactionary complaint is never strictly about there being a female protagonist or gay couple in a show, it's about them being a non-sexualized female protagonist or a non-hot gay couple. High Guardian Spice represented the more realistic and non-pandering kind of representation, which is why there was ire directed towards it. If Crunchyroll funded a typical looking anime with yuri in the style of Cirtus or Yuriyuri then there wouldn't have been any complaints at all, at least not from these specific people. I feel the distinction between the two approaches is important to make.

If people do find positive LGBT portrayals in anime then kudos to them. But at the same time I also know a lot of people who get very frustrated at things like queerbaiting, fetishizing queerness, male-gaze, problematic archetypes, and all those kinds of things that sour the genre for them and require a lot of compromises to be made in able to enjoy these series. I guess my overall point is this kind of genuine, serious, respectful, non-pandering looks into the subject matter is not really popular in anime since it doesn't sell as well as the pandering stuff.
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Puniyo



Joined: 08 Oct 2015
Posts: 271
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:51 pm Reply with quote
Horsefellow wrote:
^

Madoka and Homura... always in "cute or sexual" situations? Did we watch the same show and movies? Nothing is as cute and sexy as spoiler[watching your girlfriend die over and over again and being powerless to save her], I guess.

You can't please everyone at once, LGBT people aren't a hivemind. We aren't all looking for the same kind of representation. While more serious and non-pandering stuff would be great and something I'm definitely personally onboard for, not every show can or should be serious, just like not every straight romance series is.

I'd argue it's more that, in general, more serious shows don't sell as well, regardless of their content. Comedy series probably do better than stuff like Snow White Notes.
Regardless, Given, for example, did pretty well all things considered, and is a pretty serious and respectful, non-pandering show. Even though I'm a woman, it was the first time I watched a show - japanese or western - and really felt understood, because the scene where the main character comes to accept his orientation felt so genuine.
Meanwhile I find a lot of the western stuff mentioned to be oversanitised and unrealistic. Another LGBT person might disagree though, because all of our experiences and preferences are different.

But as for High Guardian Spice... did it? I watched all the trailers and didn't get that impression at all because of how little of the actual series they had shown. It might not be anime-style, but the characters were still designed to be cute and appealing. I really think HGS would've done just fine if it was announced by Netflix instead. Surprise, people who sub to an anime service want to watch stuff that looks like anime.

Zallis116 wrote:
Come on, let's drop the historical revisionism. The backlash to HGS was not "You guys fail marketing 101 so hard" it was a fear of a dastardly feminist/woke/whatever "agenda" being propagated and imposed. Strange how, for example, no one reacted to CR announcing Goblin Slayer with "they're spending literally all my subscription fees on fantasy rape trash." Almost as if there's a large contingent of the anime viewerbase that holds certain ideological viewerpoints


Imo the marketing may not be the root cause but it really, really didn't help. The way they marketed it baited these people pretty hard and left a bad taste in a lot of feminist/LGBT people I know, ultimately pleasing no one.
I'm not going to pretend this contingent doesn't exist because it clearly does. However pretending that CR did a good PR job with HGS would just be dishonest, especially given honestly a lot of their PR hasn't been handled well.


Last edited by Puniyo on Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:07 am; edited 5 times in total
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BadNewsBlues



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 5888
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:03 pm Reply with quote
mangamuscle wrote:
This is exactly what happened to Cartoon Network decades ago. They went from paying royalties for the series they had to creating new intellectual property they owned, even if that was in detriment of WB as a conglomerate (that is the reason they cancelled Teen Titans in lieu of Ben 10).


???

I've never heard this offered up as reason for why they canceled TT and it looks weird when you remember they produced Young Justice, Green Lantern, Brave & The Bold, Beware The Batman, Justice League Action, DC Super Hero Girls,......and TT Go which is basically a more comical take on the original TT series all this coming years after the cancellation of Teen Titans.

Piglet the Grate wrote:
The issue here is if someone subscribes to Crunchyroll to watch Japanese anime, should that money be put towards making American style animated cartoons?


Yes?

Just because you subscribe to CR doesn't mean they're obligated to exclusively spend that money on licensing or producing IP's created mostly by and for Japanese people and then stream that content to markets in other countries.

Netflix is like Crunchyroll an American company that licenses and airs content native to it's market while also creating and streaming content designed specifically for markets in other countries and weirdly no one seems to mind that.....outside of that same content being region locked or exclusive specifically to the service.
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kakugo complete



Joined: 01 Jul 2020
Posts: 71
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:40 pm Reply with quote
From the article:
Quote:
From January 2020, a number of Crunchyroll co-productions were branded as Originals. These included Gibiate, TONIKAWA: Over The Moon For You, and So I'm a Spider, So What? However, it notably doesn't include co-productions like A Destructive God Sits Next to Me, Woodpecker Detective's Office, or the currently airing Odd Taxi. This is part of the reason why Crunchyroll Originals are so difficult to define – there's little consistency in what counts.

I'll be meaner and say they're either lying OR their PR simply have no idea what they're talking about & make stuff up on the spot. They gave an interview to ANN specifically outlining the oh-so-clear difference between co-productions & originals, trying to make it clear In/Spectre is an original made specifically for CR & not a co-production: animenewsnetwork.com/feature/2020-05-06/interview-crunchyroll-talks-what-makes-an-original/.159103

Then called it an original on Youtube too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9QsM6PeTV4

Yet before that, they themselves called it a co-production. Which it absolutely is. https://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2019/11/21-1/new-key-visual-air-dates-and-additional-characters-revealed-for-crunchyroll-co-production-inspectre
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Shiroi Hane
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 7578
Location: Wales
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:54 am Reply with quote
JoelBurger wrote:
Piglet the Grate wrote:
Based on how they cheapen and ruin everything else they get their hands on by cutting costs, putting production over quality, and appealing to the lowest common denominator, one thinks not.


That's not something unique to Hollywood or Western animation generally. Anime has pretty much always been about finding economical solutions, and the industry has been on the track of vastly overproducing anime since before companies like Crunchyroll became major parts of production committees (you can argue that they've accelerated the process, though).

I think it was a short way into this video that details not only the things Tezuka did to produce anime as cheaply as possible (a lot of which are still happening today and we're used to it so don't even notice), but also how he undersold it to get producers onboard.

IceLeaf wrote:
I really don't count I'm a Spider, So What? as a Crunchyroll Original. The manga had a going to get an anime announcement years before were said to be a thing.

Not really any different to the last series of Torchwood being promoted as a "Starz Original" when it had a couple's of successful series under its belt already.
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mangamuscle



Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 2658
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:07 am Reply with quote
BadNewsBlues wrote:
I've never heard this offered up as reason for why they canceled TT and it looks weird when you remember they produced Young Justice, Green Lantern, Brave & The Bold, Beware The Batman, Justice League Action, DC Super Hero Girls,......and TT Go which is basically a more comical take on the original TT series all this coming years after the cancellation of Teen Titans.


I remember 15 years ago I read said reason somewhere on the internet. But instead of googling for said quote, lets consider this.

1) Budget Constraints. Any business works on a fixed budget imo that is the reason crunchy has not dubbed Nagatoro even tough it is obviously very popular, they do not have money allocated for more dubs this season. Back then I think Cartoon Network didn't have do money to do Ben 10 and Teen Titans at the same time.

2) income by business unit. Even tough DC comics and Cartoon Network were owned by Warner, each one reported their own income and expenses (and therefore, their profits). Of course every year warner executives must pound into each unit executive that they must increase profits, paying DC comics for the right to use their characters is an expense, gambling on a new intellectual property they own is a sensible strategy to increase profits (and it worked).

3) Public relations. "Hey kids, we are cancelling your favorite show to get more filthy money, now please go watch our new show". No media company is so tone deaf as to alienate their viewers ... wait!
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ANN_Lynzee
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 02 May 2011
Posts: 2930
Location: Email for assistance only
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:07 pm Reply with quote
Combined some posts together. I know the ANN forum version is OLD and not friendly when you wanna respond/quote multiple people, but please try to combine your posts when you can.
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 4566
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:06 pm Reply with quote
DamianSalazar wrote:
You don't speak for me. I got into this medium because I love animation and was curious to see whether it would pique my interest. Mind you I watched Pokemon, Digimon, Medabots, Beyblade, YuGiOh, Bakugan before finding out they were anime.

Thanks for posting this, because it gets a massive +1 from me. Maybe some people got into this medium out of some (most likely misguided) perception of cultural differences, but that's not me. I love anime because I love animation: I fell for it as a little kid watching dollar-store VHS compilations of Looney Tunes shorts at my grandmother's house, and I've never looked back. The fact that anime is produced in Japan holds no real inherent fascination for me beyond the fact that Japan produces a massive amount of animation in a broad array of genres and demographic targets. I've often thought that, if the American animation industry had been equally diverse, I may not have ever felt the need to look beyond it for something more. As it stands there are many American animated works that I hold very dear. Batman:TAS remains one of my all-time favorite animated series. Animaniacs was sheer unadulterated genius. Avatar:TLA has better character writing than a lot of shonen series I've seen, and certainly handles its female cast far better than the vast majority of them. Phineas and Ferb cracks me up as much as any anime comedy ever has. And there are any number of other shows like Adventure Time or Gravity Falls or Steven Universe that I'd like to sit down and watch at some point. I don't care where it's from: so long as it's animated and it's good, I'll give it a try.

Regarding Crunchyroll originals, I haven't seen any of them that I'm aware of, but I have nothing against them in principle. (Hell, I don't have a Crunchyroll subscription, so I'm not paying for them either way.) However, the reviews of a few of the projects I've read don't exactly inspire confidence, and from this article it sounds like the management side of things is a complete fustercluck. Oof. I know nothing about High Guardian Spice other than the uproar generated by whiny incels that can be summarily ignored. I don't have much personal investment in whoever happens to be on the creative team, other than the general agreement that it's good to hear from voices who have been traditionally grossly underrepresented in this industry. It absolutely sucks that the team has seen their project apparently shelved due to Crunchyroll's supreme marketing incompetence. At the end of the day, if it gets released and winds up being good, I'll gladly give it a try.
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shabu shabu



Joined: 25 Jan 2019
Posts: 79
Location: Tokyo
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:46 pm Reply with quote
Top Gun wrote:
I know nothing about High Guardian Spice other than the uproar generated by whiny incels that can be summarily ignored.


If you dislike "incels" so much you might be in the wrong hobby as that's what anime is primarily aimed at. It appears Crunchyroll did not ignore them and knew what the fandom wanted in the end and for that they should receive praise.
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ninjamitsuki



Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 589
Location: Anywhere (Thanks, technology)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:07 pm Reply with quote
DamianSalazar wrote:


You don't speak for me. I got into this medium because I love animation and was curious to see whether it would pique my interest. Mind you I watched Pokemon, Digimon, Medabots, Beyblade, YuGiOh, Bakugan before finding out they were anime.

.


Add me to the list. In fact, I got into manga BECAUSE it was more inclusive and diverse than American comics and actually bothered to consider audiences other than "guy". And I definitely wasn't alone. There was even a corny news article about the phenomenon. (ignore the thing about a Disney Sailor Moon movie... Whut?)


Last edited by ninjamitsuki on Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 4566
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:10 pm Reply with quote
shabu shabu wrote:
If you dislike "incels" so much you might be in the wrong hobby as that's what anime is primarily aimed at. It appears Crunchyroll did not ignore them and knew what the fandom wanted in the end and for that they should receive praise.

Hate to burst your bubble, but there's an entire world of anime out there beyond those which are hyper-focused on ticking off various specific otaku fetishes. Fortunately such series tend to stick out like a sore thumb, which makes it easy for me to blissfully ignore their existence.
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ninjamitsuki



Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 589
Location: Anywhere (Thanks, technology)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:22 pm Reply with quote
Top Gun wrote:
shabu shabu wrote:
If you dislike "incels" so much you might be in the wrong hobby as that's what anime is primarily aimed at. It appears Crunchyroll did not ignore them and knew what the fandom wanted in the end and for that they should receive praise.

Hate to burst your bubble, but there's an entire world of anime out there beyond those which are hyper-focused on ticking off various specific otaku fetishes. Fortunately such series tend to stick out like a sore thumb, which makes it easy for me to blissfully ignore their existence.


Also... "otaku" and "incel" are not the same thing. Even the male otaku obsessed with moe girls (which again, are NOT the sole target audience of the entire medium of anime) don't all hate women. If you seriously think the two terms are interchangeable, that says more about your own view abhorrent view of otaku than anything.
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shabu shabu



Joined: 25 Jan 2019
Posts: 79
Location: Tokyo
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:41 pm Reply with quote
ninjamitsuki wrote:
Also... "otaku" and "incel" are not the same thing. Even the male otaku obsessed with moe girls (which again, are NOT the sole target audience of the entire medium of anime) don't all hate women. If you seriously think the two terms are interchangeable, that says more about your own view abhorrent view of otaku than anything.


Incel is just a generic adhominem buzzword people use when they have no point to make. Unless Top Gun is suggesting that the only people who would dislike HGS are people who hate women. But then how come they like other shows with women? It makes no logical sense. When people use that word as an insult, they just mean it the same way they do neckbeard or virgin or loser.
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Saiphaz



Joined: 30 Aug 2020
Posts: 60
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:54 pm Reply with quote
Top Gun wrote:
I don't have much personal investment in whoever happens to be on the creative team, other than the general agreement that it's good to hear from voices who have been traditionally grossly underrepresented in this industry.


But they haven't, and I don't think it was ever the case. Be it manga, LN or anime, you'd be hard pressed to argue that women are underrepresented.
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Piglet the Grate



Joined: 25 May 2021
Posts: 523
Location: North America
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:54 pm Reply with quote
Puniyo wrote:
Surprise, people who sub to an anime service want to watch stuff that looks like anime.


Hot Dog - We have a Wiener!
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