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killjoy_the



Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 2275
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:03 pm Reply with quote
Wonder if the first episode ending like that was exactly why they released two episodes back-to-back. I don't know if anyone wants to end their first episode like that and give people a week to react to it before watching the next one
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kgw



Joined: 22 Jul 2004
Posts: 716
Location: Spain, EU
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:47 am Reply with quote
To me, Idaten is one of the few series that appeal to me this summer. It's not a second season, or another isekai, etc.

In my opinion, the rape scene was meant as a way to tell the audience "this is not a joke. Very nasty things happens to people here" spoiler[like when the ninja is dismembered and guts get everywhere], Because the kid-like appearance of the characters might lead to think is your typical series. Heck, we watched a kid having his heart gutted out and he was alright.

It's on its second episode and I do not know the manga, so I will wait to decide if its treating extreme violence like a joke or if there is a meaning behind it.
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NeverConvex



Joined: 08 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:09 am Reply with quote
kgw wrote:
It's on its second episode and I do not know the manga, so I will wait to decide if its treating extreme violence like a joke or if there is a meaning behind it.


I'm not familiar with the source material either, but in Eps 1-2 it doesn't seem -- mostly -- like it was portrayed as a joke or fan-service, to me, although the show is clearly very willing to regularly use ultraviolence to try to establish tone & meaning. spoiler[Concerning the rape scene, specifically, I thought the show's goal seemed to be to portray the human foot-soldier characters involved as thoroughly, enthusiastically, unrepentantly evil, to a degree that they feel almost like inhuman caricature, with the stylized panels hiding details of the act from us but showing the Zoble soldiers' unrestrained exultation -- they clearly think of it as just a fun diversion.

There was relatively little in the way of leering camera angles in the rape scene, for example (unlike, e.g., the obvious comparison scene in Goblin Slayer), except arguably the first moment or two where the nun's clothing was torn. Hm -- well, maybe the attention to detail on her body in the stylized black-out panels was also a bit needless, thinking back. There also seem to be hints at the end of Ep 2 that the nun could become a recurring character, and her loss of faith in a G/god(s) an important narrative point, so it may not just have been a single throw-away scene..?

That said, I can understand several of the reviewers feeling a sense of tonal whiplash, and them arguing that Idaten hasn't shown it has the depth of writing needed to handle delicate subject matter like this very well. I think/hope its many clashing moods and rapid flipping between grave ultraviolence and slapstick comedy is trying to build to a meaningful point of some kind, but it seems reasonable to suspect otherwise given what we've seen so far, too. At the least, its first episode feels like it could use a content warning for viewers.]


Separately, I'm surprised Richard E. spoiler[felt there were no sympathetic characters. I find most of the main trio kind've endearing so far, albeit each with major character flaws as well.] I do agree with Richard that spoiler[“if the demons win all life is doomed." is a pretty shitty hook, and if that's really all Idaten has to say, I'll probably end up checking out early. Its early forays into well-worn cycle-of-life/cycle-of-violence philosophizing felt to me like they promised a bit more meat than that eventually, though, so I'm hoping its ideas end up somewhere interesting in the end.]
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5085
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:40 pm Reply with quote
For the teenage boys and men who participate in mob/gang rape, it is a party. Because of that, they are unrepentantly evil. It isn't an inaccurate portrayal or a cartoonish caricature of villainy. Evil teenage boys and men act like this. Whether it is a bunch of college frat boys or a squad of soldiers it is all the same.
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RandomUser1471



Joined: 25 Mar 2021
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:10 am Reply with quote
You should not worry too much about the nun, the only other time we meet her in the manga spoiler[she's in the Not!Nazis raep dungeons where she's enjoying the daily raep despite herself. And it's shown as a funny joke, she's really into it, you see?]

Tasteful, it is not.

The anime is graphically competent, but after going to the manga I'm completely puzzled by it. Without massive changes, it's a story about a bunch of sociopaths doing sociopath things to other sociopaths, with a cheery art style. It's not even funny, it's simply puzzling.[/spoiler]
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NeverConvex



Joined: 08 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:01 am Reply with quote
Huh -- well, that's disappointing to hear. Sounds like the reviewers' suspicions were on point, if that's the case.
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camseyeview140



Joined: 26 Jan 2021
Posts: 88
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:34 am Reply with quote
yeah...Itaden is not great...just a terrible first impression all around. It feels like someone wanted to recreate the era of late 80s early 90s ovas where they were hyper violent, rampantly sexist, and were more for the niche fandom than the mass audience.

Also kind of weird people are trying to defend and justify THAT scene in ep 1..I'm just saying, they could have showed how evil the individuals are without doing THAT and trying to cover it up with "artistic direction"
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Takkun4343



Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Posts: 1191
Location: Gahanna, Ohio
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:23 am Reply with quote
RandomUser1471 wrote:
You should not worry too much about the nun, the only other time we meet her in the manga spoiler[she's in the Not!Nazis raep dungeons where she's enjoying the daily raep despite herself. And it's shown as a funny joke, she's really into it, you see?]

But that's in the manga. The anime may end up going a different route, and considering that nun is in one of the promotional posters (if only in the corner), I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if it did.
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Redbeard 101
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:24 pm Reply with quote
camseyeview140 wrote:
yeah...Itaden is not great...just a terrible first impression all around. It feels like someone wanted to recreate the era of late 80s early 90s ovas where they were hyper violent, rampantly sexist, and were more for the niche fandom than the mass audience.

Also kind of weird people are trying to defend and justify THAT scene in ep 1..I'm just saying, they could have showed how evil the individuals are without doing THAT and trying to cover it up with "artistic direction"


To your first point, if that's what they are in fact trying to do then I think they are failing miserably. I grew up watching those 80's and 90's shows and I'll be the first t say there was a lot of questionable content. At least by in large you knew going in what you were getting though. There was no bait and switch or a tonal 180 shift that would snap your neck like in Itaden. It's bright popping colors, over the top stylized action and gore, a small mysterious blurb with Ysley, and then right to nazi stand ins with a burning village and let's rape the nun. No segway. Just right from the fight to that. On top of that lets make the scene a bit artsy. Yea, that totally makes it better. Rolling Eyes We can debate the morals and tone of the aforementioned older anime, but at least you knew what you were getting going into it.

To your second point....yea I agree. I read a lot of dark fantasy, I know rape happens in those stories. Whether they're going for a grittier/darker tone, trying to be more realistic to what happened in such situations historically, or whatever else their reasoning I get that such despicable things happen. I know such stories are not for everyone. I do think those sorts of acts can have a place in the story, if it's handled well. The key questions to me are 1. Is it necessary in the sense of the plot/story the narrative is trying to tell? 2. Do the material use a proper tone for it? For me in Itaden it fails on both accounts. Especially with how they tried to stylize it some. To me that scene is pointless and adds nothing but to titillate viewers, or to be edgy for the sake of being edgy. I felt much the same with Goblin Slayer's first episode (no I am not starting a debate on that show, just mentioning a personal comparison that the particular scene invoked for me). In such situations it just takes me out of the experience and enjoyment of the show.

That morality aspect aside, when a show does such a tone shift like this, and as poorly as this show did, it gives me little faith in the show being cohesive moving forward. So no thanks.
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camseyeview140



Joined: 26 Jan 2021
Posts: 88
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:49 pm Reply with quote
Redbeard 101 wrote:
camseyeview140 wrote:
yeah...Itaden is not great...just a terrible first impression all around. It feels like someone wanted to recreate the era of late 80s early 90s ovas where they were hyper violent, rampantly sexist, and were more for the niche fandom than the mass audience.

Also kind of weird people are trying to defend and justify THAT scene in ep 1..I'm just saying, they could have showed how evil the individuals are without doing THAT and trying to cover it up with "artistic direction"


To your first point, if that's what they are in fact trying to do then I think they are failing miserably. I grew up watching those 80's and 90's shows and I'll be the first t say there was a lot of questionable content. At least by in large you knew going in what you were getting though. There was no bait and switch or a tonal 180 shift that would snap your neck like in Itaden. It's bright popping colors, over the top stylized action and gore, a small mysterious blurb with Ysley, and then right to nazi stand ins with a burning village and let's rape the nun. No segway. Just right from the fight to that. On top of that lets make the scene a bit artsy. Yea, that totally makes it better. Rolling Eyes We can debate the morals and tone of the aforementioned older anime, but at least you knew what you were getting going into it.

To your second point....yea I agree. I read a lot of dark fantasy, I know rape happens in those stories. Whether they're going for a grittier/darker tone, trying to be more realistic to what happened in such situations historically, or whatever else their reasoning I get that such despicable things happen. I know such stories are not for everyone. I do think those sorts of acts can have a place in the story, if it's handled well. The key questions to me are 1. Is it necessary in the sense of the plot/story the narrative is trying to tell? 2. Do the material use a proper tone for it? For me in Itaden it fails on both accounts. Especially with how they tried to stylize it some. To me that scene is pointless and adds nothing but to titillate viewers, or to be edgy for the sake of being edgy. I felt much the same with Goblin Slayer's first episode (no I am not starting a debate on that show, just mentioning a personal comparison that the particular scene invoked for me). In such situations it just takes me out of the experience and enjoyment of the show.

That morality aspect aside, when a show does such a tone shift like this, and as poorly as this show did, it gives me little faith in the show being cohesive moving forward. So no thanks.


I think what doesn't work about this show so far is that they obviously want a moral quandry with the philosophy of the Deities. Since they haven't had to fight demons for so long, and the humans aren't going anywhere anytime soon, should they jump in with what's going on now? Now that we know that the demons have come in on the human level, it feels kind of insane that they don't know or don't sense that stuff.

Also, when it's obviously one side that's doing everything, and well, are just horrible scumbags (I have seen the manga and yeah...everyone is just edgy), then it makes the Deitis look awful for not stopping the constant amount of murder and assault. The fact the deitis just scuttle around and not do anything about this makes them really despicable characters, and I could see this working, if there obviously wasn't one side that is supposed to be the bad guys, when it just seems like everyone is terrible, but the show wants you to root for the Deitis.
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Redbeard 101
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:58 pm Reply with quote
So basically everyone is shit, but this this pile of shit (the deities) smells slightly less bad than the other piles of shit? If so then yea, no thanks. That with the tone whiplash is enough for me.
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kgw



Joined: 22 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:39 am Reply with quote
camseyeview140 wrote:

Also kind of weird people are trying to defend and justify THAT scene in ep 1..I'm just saying, they could have showed how evil the individuals are without doing THAT and trying to cover it up with "artistic direction"


The scene, as we are told, did happen in the original manga. So it was bound to happen, no matter if we do not like it. So, using your own words, your opinion about other people's ideas is kind of weird, too.
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Snowcat



Joined: 01 Feb 2021
Posts: 47
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:08 am Reply with quote
lossthief wrote:
The presumed goal of that scene is to shock the viewer into realizing there are darker implications to the world this show is set in. But because the actual world was 1) barely set up to begin with and 2) portrayed with an entirely comedic, cartoonish energy for the previous 20 minutes, it doesn't. Instead it just comes off as a head-scratching nonsequitor that clashes with everything that came before and immediately afterwards.

In my opinion, the scene perfectly manage to reach its goal: showing that there was darker realities in this world and that deities doesn't care about humans and their believers (a nun in this case). They don't fight against evil.
The scene in the manga is also used for ecchi (it's a seinen manga) and was toned down in the anime to be less disturbing. It could have been replaced by an other kind of violence or cruelty and reach the same narrative objectives but the manga reader may have been annoyed and, as a publicity for the manga, completely changing the scene could have been a disservice.

Considering the whiplash of tone as a proof of narrative failure is incorrect, it's reflect the general trend to consider black humour as inappropriate, but it is more a kind of tone policing then a real argument.

But, from an entertainment standpoint, the choice to keep the rape scene is bad because it doesn't bring more than another kind of violence and is more disturbing for a part of the public. So, i don't think there was a good solution for adaptation in this case and i can understand the reaction of the reviewers. It's always the same problem to adapt works originally aimed at a segment of the public.
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NeverConvex



Joined: 08 Jun 2013
Posts: 1202
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:33 am Reply with quote
Mm, disappointed in Tsukimichi -Moonlit Fantasy-. From the reviews, I thought I would find the main cast's chemistry charming, but everything just fell flat for me. And I've always thought of Slime as kind of second-rate fare; a close imitation of it isn't really appealing to me at all. Almost feels like the exhausting trend of superficial, trope-filled isekai genre takes is starting to develop a fractal structure, bending in on itself and endlessly mirroring the sub-sub-sub-...-sub-...sub-genres...

Droppin' Peach Boy until end of season. Not feeling the out-of-order airing choice at all. Gonna watch it once the season's over, in proper chronology. Not that getting creative with chronology is necessarily a bad choice; but, having watched the first few episodes, I strongly suspect it was just someone feeling a bit too artistic with too little thought, in this specific case.

If Idaten also turns out to be a stinker, that's not gonna leave me with much for this season! Hopefully there's a show or two I haven't mined out've the reviews yet..

Snowcat wrote:
So, i don't think there was a good solution for adaptation in this case and i can understand the reaction of the reviewers. It's always the same problem to adapt works originally aimed at a segment of the public.


If there's not some larger narrative point that will be made with it (like, arguably, in the obvious comparison scene in A Clockwork Orange), then maybe a good solution would just have been to, well, cut it? Not like the show's lacking for other scenes that establish the contrast between human and deific experience, or the deities' indifference to human suffering... If the nun's not going to be a recurring character and her experience isn't going to strongly inform a character arc for her that ties substantively into the themes of the show, then including it seems like kind of careless shock, to me.
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camseyeview140



Joined: 26 Jan 2021
Posts: 88
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:04 am Reply with quote
kgw wrote:
camseyeview140 wrote:

Also kind of weird people are trying to defend and justify THAT scene in ep 1..I'm just saying, they could have showed how evil the individuals are without doing THAT and trying to cover it up with "artistic direction"


The scene, as we are told, did happen in the original manga. So it was bound to happen, no matter if we do not like it. So, using your own words, your opinion about other people's ideas is kind of weird, too.


it's really not lol. They could have cut the scene or found something different to do and just not show rape. No one wants to see that garbage. It's immensely unpleasant to watch, and considering the people I've talked to have the same problems as the critics do, well, then that's a problem...dont' defend garbage like this. If you are going to die on a hill, then choose a hill worth dying on that's not "they should keep in the rape"
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