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EP. REVIEW: Higurashi: When They Cry – SOTSU


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danpmss



Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 762
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:49 pm Reply with quote
NeverConvex wrote:
Those text boxes are getting pretty long, would be nice if you'd snip them when quoting.

For what it's worth, I have no idea what's in the VNs, original Higurashi or otherwise. My complaint that the Super Saiyan Satoko-Rika battle was an abrupt and poorly written change for the nature of Higurashi is in relation to the original few anime series (and to a lesser extent from the pre-mid-air-flying-shounen-battles parts of Gou and Sotsu, I suppose), and just the anime series.

I did trim them when quotting though? Only left their replies since otherwise there's no discussion to be had.

It wasn't at all abrupt anyway, has been a long time coming and teased from the start with the Opening segment. Sotsu was a slow burner through and through covering Satoko's breakdown over guilt for her murderous obsession and separating from her looping alter ego as a result after she couldn't handled her own façade using people that genuinely cared for her (which still is Satoko, just the worst part of her personalities being upscaled inhumanly after 100+ years worth of loops). That much was covered reasonably well in the Kai anime anyway, as even Rika considered her past "I" long gone, only for Keiichi to show her a miracle and get herself going once more. In here, in direct contrast, Satoko's past "I" tried to go against her alter ego as well, but couldn't and it assumed control instead of the opposite. Their separation is shown in Saikoroshi, but the anime never covered the specifics, unlike the VN, in which something similar happened. Even then, this anime is covering these plot points now with Satoko as a counterpart and expanding on what the old anime didn't. This always has been in there even in the old anime, as poorly covered as it was.

Her breakdown is also much more interesting with VN information, since there's a huge plot point about her faking abuses in the past, which in turn bit her once the real abuse started happening. Satoko was always one of the most problematic characters in the original who actually didn't get her character resolution from Minagoroshi during Matsuribayashi, it didn't carry on. Rika completely forgot about Minagoroshi, so she has no idea Satoko still has those same problematics. All of this is being covered only now rather subtly in the Newgurashi anime, but people unaware of those things are just saying they ruined Higurashi, while unknowingly attacking the original higurashi, likely because of their only contact being with the poor adaptation the anime series was for the most part, which they are more familiar with.

I can literally go all day quotting the VN and comparing the equivalents represented in Newgurashi that were missing in the first anime and that now are finally included, I have the entire script on me. Gou/Sotsu are per definition both a sequel and an adaptation expansion to the original Higurashi anime (just a sequel, in the case of the VN).


Last edited by danpmss on Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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NeverConvex
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:56 pm Reply with quote
danpmss wrote:
I can literally go all day quotting the VN and comparing the equivalents represented in Newgurashi that were missing in the first anime and that now are finally included, I have the entire script on me.


I don't see how this would help, since I'm not interested in the VN source material. Citing the VN constantly just makes me think your arguments are irrelevant to my experience of Higurashi.
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danpmss



Joined: 30 May 2015
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:07 pm Reply with quote
NeverConvex wrote:
danpmss wrote:
I can literally go all day quotting the VN and comparing the equivalents represented in Newgurashi that were missing in the first anime and that now are finally included, I have the entire script on me.


I don't see how this would help, since I'm not interested in the VN source material. Citing the VN constantly just makes me think your arguments are irrelevant to my experience of Higurashi.

Well, if you read even half of what I just wrote, you would know that you don't even need to read the VN, the Newgurashi anime is covering several of those as we speak, as part of its overarching plot. The point is that this IS and always will be part of what was already in the original Higurashi to begin with. The new Higurashi anime is perhaps more careful with the source material content it is covering than the first Higurashi anime season ever was (and that's considering we got a rather abridged version of many of those, with the SoL parts, those are full chapter length in the VN). At least Kai was a much better adaptation all in all, so it made for a satisfying conclusion (that a lot of people hate for the bullshit fun stuff, but hey, same happened with the VN anyway).
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NeverConvex
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:15 pm Reply with quote
"Newgurashi" is how you're referring to Gou and Sotsu? I disagree that they've naturally built up to this, for the reasons I laid out earlier, but I don't see much point in engaging further on that. I'm glad you still enjoy the show; someone should.
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danpmss



Joined: 30 May 2015
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:24 pm Reply with quote
NeverConvex wrote:
"Newgurashi" is how you're referring to Gou and Sotsu? I disagree that they've naturally built up to this, for the reasons I laid out earlier, but I don't see much point in engaging further on that. I'm glad you still enjoy the show; someone should.


Newgurashi, Sotsugyou, Gou/Sotsu. Whatever floats your boat, Newgurashi is cuter imo.

Well, there wasn't much of an argument anyway.
- There was you saying that your complaint was that the Super Saiyan Satoko-Rika battle was an abrupt and poorly written change for the nature of Higurashi is in relation to the original few anime series, repying to my comment exemplifying how it was a natural progression in the series and arguably much less abrupt than the Original Series final portion.

-Me responding that it always has been the case and that most of its content that directly led to said climax even came from the visual novel itself (and that were also present in the old anime in one way or another). I could bother copy-and-pasting the big text with specifics, but nah.

-You concluding with "I disagree" and not elaborating at all, going smug with "at least someone enjoy it" ("someone" you say, a.k.a. still a fair majority of the people watching and engaging with any popular polls on both Reddit and MAL, so no need to go with an argumentum ad populum and act like I'm alone on this, if that's what you are going for) and running away with nothing to add.

Why did you even bother to participate in such an argument if you are going to do that, I ask myself? At the very least explain in which way they DIDN'T naturally built up to this.

Your whole point had no substance more than "it sucks because I think so". Next time don't bother to address me if you are going to do that.

As for the other comments:

kyokun47 wrote:
danpmss wrote:
all of this mess
I mean yeah, you can bring all of this up, but it doesn't change the fact that we STILL don't like what Gou/Sotsu has turned into. Whether that means we like Higurashi or not because of "what it always was" is irrelevant because we and many other people here are frustrated with this show and no justifications or last-episode-discussions would have justified the almost 40 episodes of bad decisions, period.


That's literally what I said, from the start. You are free to call it the mess you believe it to be all you want. Just be sure to keep in mind that's just how Higurashi always has been, so do consider my TL:DR applicable to this. My point is about people complaining about the escalation being like that. And the escalation in here is by far more consistent than what it was in the original, while using those escalations from the original accordingly.

Am I saying you are forbidden of disliking it? No.
I'm saying that if you paid any attention to Higurashi's build up in the OG plot, you would see the very same thing happening, except it escalated with supernatural elements out of nowhere after 6 arcs of grounded horror mystery (+Tsumi shounen battle escalation). And then went full deus ex machina in Matsuribayashi in a much more contrasting way to the originally grounded story than Gou/Sotsu, which had that same supernatural lore as a base from the start.

You go and shit on all that for all I care, I'm just pointing out the ironic hypocrisy of devaluing Newgurashi as "not being Higurashi-like", for literally being, for better or for worse, the most Higurashi it could possibly be, down to the over-the-top climactic escalation. You seem to be on board with that, basically repeating what I just said as some sort of counterargument, so hey, nice that we are on the same page.

Not even saying Sotsu doesn't have its pacing problems and flaws, but they aren't anywhere near as bad nor "ruining the original" as people in here are making it up to be.

Hell, the first anime has a number of major plot holes that can't even be corrected (particularly, try explaining the finale of Onikakushi, Watanagashi and Meakashi without the VN information anyway), this is at least much more consistent than that by far.

Now if you are going to generalize all of this as "almost 40 episodes of bad decisions", you are just demonstrating your complete lack of interest from the start, to even try to find at least some positive substance that is definitely in there. Therefore it really is pointless for me to reply seriously to anyone that would say such a thing for real, no matter how frustrated they may be with the slow weekly progression in Sotsu alone because of the contextualizing revisits (which honestly, are not too big of a deal binging anyway, I've seen much worse padding in long-running shounen anime).

Whether you are saying this in the heat of the moment or not, it's just silly, so please don't.

MagicianMan wrote:
You misunderstood my last point. I didn't articulate it well, so fair enough. You kept saying Ryukishi writes this, Ryukishi writes that. What I was saying is that the author can do wrong by their own work. So just because Ryukishi "subverted our expectations" intentionally doesn't make that a good decision.


I could give a bigger damn for who wrote this (which was the same writer in this case). The point is that it's completely in line with what Higurashi always has been. Being from him or anyone else wouldn't change a thing about that (wouldn't even be the first time, the console arcs are not written by Ryukishi, and they are arguably lenghtier than the original story on itself at this point, and they were really good overall).

Nobody is arguing whether something was done right or wrong in here either, I'm not sure where you are getting this from at all. You guys really don't seem to have actually read my comment (I know I write a lot, but if you are replying to me, at the very least do that).
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Gem-Bug



Joined: 10 Nov 2018
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:52 pm Reply with quote
Danpmss, you need to chill out with the snide, condescending tone. Having an Umineko avatar doesn't make you boss of the WTC franchise, nor the judge of who's opinion on anything regarding any of the series matters or is correct. You've been gate-keeping with walls of rambling, "so there!" text, so I'm not at all surprised that NeverConvex or anyone else just wants to stop engaging with you. I'm certainly not inclined to. Confused
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NeverConvex
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:08 pm Reply with quote
I didn't mean 'someone should' to imply that most people aren't, Danpmss. I have no idea how popular Gou and Sotsu are with the general fanbase, and genuinely meant that I thought someone should enjoy it. Even though I think the state it's in now is pretty lamentable, at least it still feels like Higurashi has some unusual ideas they want to explore. I'd rather eyeballs draw more production committee money to a Higurashi than another one of the 10,000 0-effort isekais, say. Even if I've come to mostly dislike this arc of Higurashi, I'll still probably be at least curious what happens with the franchise in the future. Can't say that for a lot of franchises, heh.

As to why I'd engage at all if I didn't want to dig into all of the details of any of your replies: I had a specific, simple point to make (that I felt citing reams of VN evidence was largely missing the point). I just wanted to point that out, and am now content - deeply messageboard-fulfilled, even. Laughing
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ANN_Lynzee
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:22 pm Reply with quote
danpmss wrote:

-You concluding with "I disagree" and not elaborating at all, going smug with "at least someone enjoy it" ("someone" you say, a.k.a. still a fair majority of the people watching and engaging with any popular polls on both Reddit and MAL, so no need to go with an argumentum ad populum and act like I'm alone on this, if that's what you are going for) and running away with nothing to add.


Someone refusing to engage with you is not "running away" but that being your approach to discussions should answer all of your questions about why three different posters have chosen to disengage. No one wants to have a conversation with someone who approaches disagreements about media as "defend your opinions to my satisfaction or LOSE."

The primary point you seem to be missing is there is a difference with inclusion of supernatural aspects and the execution of those aspects. Regardless of whether magical timeline-hopping murder battles is in line with past plot developments in Higurashi, the way it was depicted reminded people of Dragon Ball Z (or in my case, DBZ and Eva finale). The DBZ part is based entirely on how the fight looked, not its inclusion and there are ways to avoid that. It's a visual problem.
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killjoy_the



Joined: 30 May 2015
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:58 pm Reply with quote
danpmss wrote:
1- Higurashi? For a minor early example, Tsumi has a long af battle shounen roof battle out of nowhere, after 5 serious business grounded arcs. But that's not even when it really escalated, because after introducing supernatural elements in Minagoroshi, it went full deus ex machina craziness with supernatural powers by the end, making sense in context (it's a literal Goddess doing business). Transferring memories and life experience from another world to a person's brain for them to kick some kung fu ass in the world you are in with no foreshadowing whatsoever AND going full JoJo with ZA WARUDO bullets at the very end of the climax? Yeah, definitely super grounded compared to all that came before, I won't even start with Satoko's traps working against trained counter-intelligence forces (at least that one got some foreshadowing despite being comic relief lol).


I'm glad you brought this up. I did, in fact, hate those things you mentioned, and have thus concluded that this series is just absolutely not for me if this is the where it was all leading up to. Dude can write some neat mystery, but absolutely sucks at the conclusions, kind of spoiling the whole thing
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Sven Viking



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:41 pm Reply with quote
ANN_Lynzee wrote:
there is a difference with inclusion of supernatural aspects and the execution of those aspects. Regardless of whether magical timeline-hopping murder battles is in line with past plot developments in Higurashi, the way it was depicted reminded people of Dragon Ball Z (or in my case, DBZ and Eva finale). The DBZ part is based entirely on how the fight looked, not its inclusion and there are ways to avoid that. It's a visual problem.

Agreed.

The timeline-hopping beyond what’s been possible so far and characters displaying strength seemingly well past even the exaggerated strength common in Higurashi were already supernatural escalations. Blades being summoned into existence (or at least conscious visibility?) was a supernatural escalation. I was pretty fine with that. For me personally, though, traps being unusually effective, teenagers swinging weapons about on a roof, or even a long-established supernatural being using her last remaining power to deflect a single bullet just aren’t escalations on the same level as abrupt magical girl transformations and flying DBZ battles.

I might have been more inclined to roll with it if I hadn’t been disappointed by the way some of the other elements were going at that point, admittedly. I also thought a number of the Matsuribayashi-hen plot elements were technically weak, to be honest, but in that case I was so relieved to finally see a happy ending that I had no problem ignoring a few details.


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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:53 pm Reply with quote
On a moderator note the condescension and passive aggressive snark stops now please. I also suggest that before anyone tells others to "read my posts before you comment" in essence, they should take their own advice and actually read what others are saying. People can have differing opinions here without being told they're objectively wrong for those opinions.
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rizuchan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:41 am Reply with quote
Yes of course there was magic and supernatural elements in Higurashi (and far more in Umineko) to begin with. But I always saw it like there was sort of a front and back side. The mystery on the "front" side was almost entirely composed of human elements in the real world, while most of the supernatural elements occurred in the "back" fragment world. It felt like you could even choose not to believe in the "back" side. And while Masturibayashi strayed from this a little by bringing Hanyuu to the real world, I don't remember it being that jarring. Hanyuu blocked a bullet. That was her one little miracle, and hell, you could even argue that maybe Takano just got spooked by Hanyuu's sudden demeanor change and missed.

I don't want to create a wall of spoilers, but Umineko not only follows this trend, but makes it a pretty big element of of the plot. Due to the nature of Umineko, nothing can be certain, but... I feel like someone who says "there's tons of crazy magic flying around willy-nilly in Umineko" missed something pretty crucial from that story. And even then, the witches in Umineko had to work hard to study magic, and were still bound by rules and their own limitations. (Neither of which seemed to apply to Sotsu)

The biggest problem with Sotsu in the last episode is it brought all of the magic to the "front" side without any proper explanation. This is inconsistent both thematically and in terms of the plot, in the Higurashi world. It would be one thing if this battle occurred in the sea of fragments and Eua was clearly propping them up. But if Rika and Satoko had these crazy powers in the "real" world this whole time, there should have been some better indication of that. Why did Satoko put so much effort into learning to use a gun properly if she could just ki-blast people or use super strength? You can argue that this is following Umineko rules and not Higurashi rules, but again, there was no indication of this shift. You can't change the rules mid-game.
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Dayraven



Joined: 21 Jul 2021
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:37 am Reply with quote
Thought about the final episode:

This might not have been such a bad ending if it were part of a story that consisted more or less just of the Satokowashi arc and then this. It’s everything that Satoko’s done or caused elsewhere in Gou/Sotsu (and which the repetition has help to dwell on) that has to be ignored to make the redemption work. (And of course spoiler[Satoshi wakes up and remembers she’s supposed to look after Satoko] in time for the happy ending scenes.)
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kyokun47



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:35 pm Reply with quote
Here we are besties, it's been a WILD ride lmao. For all of Gou/Sotsu's missteps, I'll admit the last 5 minutes or so did have me sobbing my little eyes out lol. spoiler[A really nice send-off to Hinamizawa, even if these last two series didn't earn it.] This was also probably the best ending I would have hoped for given where we were before this episode. I'm most glad that spoiler[Rika and Satoko are still very much not friends after all of the crap Satoko pulled, and minus the weird witch stuff by the train before Rika left, they need that distance apart for each others' sakes.] Still disappointed overall, but I can only be glad that the last half of this episode was a decent last hurrah for the fans before R07 hopefully shelves Higurashi's story for good.

Edit: spoiler[Also yes, I really do wish that Rika finished Satoko off with the sword. I think she fully deserved it. I knew they'd NEVER actually do it though, so *shrugs*]


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MagicPolly



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:41 pm Reply with quote
I feel like the ending was ok, but it really did not need the 13 episodes of setup that it got. I'm glad we're finally at the end though, despite my reservations that they wouldn't be able to wrap up the plot in the two episodes given. I may have disliked most of the season, but the ending was ok enough though not enough to forgive the 13 episodes of grueling recap.

Also the ending song being a version of You (You Sotsugyou) was really nice.
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