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catandmouse wrote:

I hated the ending. It annoys me when authors go the spoiler[years later everyone’s is married an has kids] route, but I especially hated this ending because to me there was never any hints spoiler[ of romance betweenIchigo and Orihime and suddenly 10 years later they’re married with a kid?!] That completely ruined the whole story for me. Yup, that single thing completely ruined 600+ Chapters. I wonder if this new chapter will be about spoiler[Rukia and Renji’s wedding]? Now that I could see and it made sense to me. From his introduction I felt it was left very clear that spoiler[Renji had feelings for Rukia.]
I would like to read about that, but I don’t want to see anything about spoiler[ ichigo and orihime] so in my case, this series is dead and buried, unfortunately. Sad

So, you never saw any hints of romance between Ichigo and Orihime but Renji and Rukia makes sense for you because it was clear for you Renji had feelings for Rukia?

From her first appearance in the manga, it had been very obvious Orihime had feelings for Ichigo: she often said to her friends she thought he had a funny face, she could sense it wasn't Ichigo when Kon used Ichigo's body, she noticed Ichigo was weird on his mother's death day... In the Arrancar arc, she was jealous that Rukia was able to cheer up Ichigo and cried on Rangiku's lap; she even said she would like to have lived 5 lives to fall in love 5 times of the same man (referring to Ichigo). She went to heal him and almost kissed him before to go to Hueco Mundo. In the Fullbringers arc she was very nervous for going in Ichigo's bedroom for the first time.
In the last arc, there's also the scene were spoiler[Orihime has a new outfit and Ichigo said it shows to much for his taste. Orihime is then mortified that Ichigo could think she's a pervert].

So yeah, Orihime often showed her feelings for Ichigo.
Rukia never showed any interest for Renji, and honestly, I think Ichigo and Rukia are soul mates, but we cannot forget that Ichigo is human and Rukia is a soul. They were never meant to be together as a couple.

^ Which I've always viewed as a shame. Since Ichigo's father is a Soul Reaper, I hoped that he would end up with Rukia somehow as they both seemed to get along with one another so well. Orihime may have liked Ichigo, but I never felt any romantic attraction *from him* towards her. Renji obviously liked Rukia, but it looked like his choices had caused her to view him as a friend but that's all.

However, the connection between Ichigo and Rukia seemed much closer. When she was pretending to be Human, it seemed so obvious to her classmates (including Orihime) that they asked her about it directly, and multiple people commented on it (including the Soul Reaper sent to check on things who fought the Grand Fisher and later agreed to remain quiet about it).

Maybe it's a cultural thing, but my impression was that Ichigo and Rukia had something going on. OTOH, none of the "Big 3" mangaka were any good at romance, IMO. Even so, I found the lack of closure on this, or rather the way it fell out, to be pretty disappointing.

Tuor_of_Gondolin wrote:

^ OTOH, none of the "Big 3" mangaka were any good at romance, IMO. Even so, I found the lack of closure on this, or rather the way it fell out, to be pretty disappointing.

That's because they probably didn't really care about it. I know Oda has said something along those lines and I thought Kubo did as well.

Touma55 wrote:

Tuor_of_Gondolin wrote:

^ OTOH, none of the "Big 3" mangaka were any good at romance, IMO. Even so, I found the lack of closure on this, or rather the way it fell out, to be pretty disappointing.

That's because they probably didn't really care about it. I know Oda has said something along those lines and I thought Kubo did as well.

I wasn't going into *why* the romance is so bad, only that it is. And yes, Oda said something along those lines, too. I find it just as disappointing (and unrealistic) as I do in Bleach.

It's their stories, and they can do what they want in writing them. That doesn't mean that I can't be disappointed by it. I can be and I am.

Tuor_of_Gondolin wrote:

Touma55 wrote:

Tuor_of_Gondolin wrote:

^ OTOH, none of the "Big 3" mangaka were any good at romance, IMO. Even so, I found the lack of closure on this, or rather the way it fell out, to be pretty disappointing.

That's because they probably didn't really care about it. I know Oda has said something along those lines and I thought Kubo did as well.

I wasn't going into *why* the romance is so bad, only that it is. And yes, Oda said something along those lines, too. I find it just as disappointing (and unrealistic) as I do in Bleach.

It's their stories, and they can do what they want in writing them. That doesn't mean that I can't be disappointed by it. I can be and I am.

I guess that's fair. I don't blame them though since they are/were writing a battle series for teenage boys. Personally I think it's best not to expect romance to have much focus in battle series since most of them give it little to no attention.

Touma55 wrote:

Tuor_of_Gondolin wrote:

That's because they probably didn't really care about it. I know Oda has said something along those lines and I thought Kubo did as well.

I wasn't going into *why* the romance is so bad, only that it is. And yes, Oda said something along those lines, too. I find it just as disappointing (and unrealistic) as I do in Bleach.

It's their stories, and they can do what they want in writing them. That doesn't mean that I can't be disappointed by it. I can be and I am.

Touma55 wrote:

I guess that's fair. I don't blame them though since they are/were writing a battle series for teenage boys. Personally I think it's best not to expect romance to have much focus in battle series since most of them give it little to no attention.

It's not that they have "little" focus, it's that they have almost no focus whatsoever. As someone who was himself once a teenaged boy, I wouldn't say that "romance" is something that was especially on my mind, wanting to know girls was certainly on my mind. Relationships in high school were going on everywhere, and it's part of growing up.

Forming close bonds with the opposite sex when you're a teen very frequently leads to romance (as long as their is at least some chemistry). This is why, for example, the high school girls in Bleach were ribbing Rukia and basically *assumed* that there was more going on, because *that is normal*.

What the mangaka of the old Big Three were doing was *not normal*. I'm pretty sure it's because they had no idea how to pull it off and avoided it rather than blow up their stories trying to include something that they weren't any good at portraying. If that's the reason, then I can understand it, but I *still* don't like it.

"Focus on what you know" is an old adage for writers, so I want to emphasize that I'm not berating them for their choice on the matter. I'm just saying that I *don't like it*. I wish there were more scenes that at least hinted at a two-way interest, for example. But just because I don't like some aspect of a story doesn't mean that I don't like the story overall. I like One Piece's story quite a bit, and Naruto's is pretty decent, too. Bleach has the worst story of the three, IMO, but it's still worth reading/watching.

Tuor_of_Gondolin wrote:

Touma55 wrote:

Tuor_of_Gondolin wrote:

That's because they probably didn't really care about it. I know Oda has said something along those lines and I thought Kubo did as well.

I wasn't going into *why* the romance is so bad, only that it is. And yes, Oda said something along those lines, too. I find it just as disappointing (and unrealistic) as I do in Bleach.

It's their stories, and they can do what they want in writing them. That doesn't mean that I can't be disappointed by it. I can be and I am.

Touma55 wrote:

I guess that's fair. I don't blame them though since they are/were writing a battle series for teenage boys. Personally I think it's best not to expect romance to have much focus in battle series since most of them give it little to no attention.

It's not that they have "little" focus, it's that they have almost no focus whatsoever. As someone who was himself once a teenaged boy, I wouldn't say that "romance" is something that was especially on my mind, wanting to know girls was certainly on my mind. Relationships in high school were going on everywhere, and it's part of growing up.

Forming close bonds with the opposite sex when you're a teen very frequently leads to romance (as long as their is at least some chemistry). This is why, for example, the high school girls in Bleach were ribbing Rukia and basically *assumed* that there was more going on, because *that is normal*.

What the mangaka of the old Big Three were doing was *not normal*. I'm pretty sure it's because they had no idea how to pull it off and avoided it rather than blow up their stories trying to include something that they weren't any good at portraying. If that's the reason, then I can understand it, but I *still* don't like it.

"Focus on what you know" is an old adage for writers, so I want to emphasize that I'm not berating them for their choice on the matter. I'm just saying that I *don't like it*. I wish there were more scenes that at least hinted at a two-way interest, for example. But just because I don't like some aspect of a story doesn't mean that I don't like the story overall. I like One Piece's story quite a bit, and Naruto's is pretty decent, too. Bleach has the worst story of the three, IMO, but it's still worth reading/watching.

Alright I get what you're saying, but what do you mean when you say what the big 3 did wasn't normal? It was absolutely normal for a battle series to do especially one in Shonen Jump.

BlueBeast33 wrote:

What is this 5-year time frame y'all are talking about? No such thing existed. The final arc didn't even run for 5 years. I'm honestly confused what you're even referring to.

Around the time the Aizen arc was wrapped up, Kubo said he intended to write two more arcs, one short one that would last around a year (that ended up being the much reviled Fullbringer arc) and a longer one that would last about 5 years. Whether Jump took that estimated timeline as a hard limit for him to finish the story is unknown tho.

Touma55 wrote:

That's because they probably didn't really care about it. I know Oda has said something along those lines and I thought Kubo did as well.

Indeed, Kubo mentioned that he didn't want to give much focus to any potential romance aspect, which begs the question of then why make the ending to your magnum opus "and everyone was married with kids"

gedata wrote:

"It was axed because it feels like it was" is not proof. I feel more inclined to believe the weak flop of an ending was brought about as a result of health complications. There's actual statements from the man himself that lend to that conclusion.

If a manga series has been tanking in the weekly magazine rankings for months, let alone years like Bleach had been, with volume sales in rapid decline, and then it ends rather abruptly wrapping up a 100+ chapter conflict in 20 pages, it's almost delusional to believe it wasn't axed. The change of pace follows the pattern of the known cancellation procedure to the T: The author is notified 5-10 weeks in advance that their series is getting the chop and they have X number of chapters to wrap it up. And given Japan's hush-hush culture of never actually disclosing what goes on behind the scenes, even if it was axed (which it 100% was) neither Kubo nor Jump staff would ever come out and say it publicly.

It is also known Kubo was at odds with the editorial staff and that he had had some confrontations with them, he said it himself in interviews. It was also rumored that iirc Jump's editor in chief at the time quite disliked Bleach which I find credible considering the series didn't get a single magazine cover or full color spread in its last 2-3 years of serialization, and even single-color pages during that period can be counted in one hand.

And the series getting axed by the editorial department isn't mutually exclusive with Kubo burning out and experiencing physical and mental health issues. The former accounts for the rather sudden change of pace and expedited conclusion while the latter can explain the overall dip in quality in Bleach's last years, the increasingly notorious lack of backgrounds, the writing growing messier by the week etc. Unless you mean to tell me Kubo's mental and physical health issues suddenly appeared 10 weeks before Bleach's ending, you can't possibly believe the series wasn't axed by an editorial department that realized it was never gonna go back to its former glory in terms of sales or magazine popularity

CrowLia wrote:

Touma55 wrote:

That's because they probably didn't really care about it. I know Oda has said something along those lines and I thought Kubo did as well.

Indeed, Kubo mentioned that he didn't want to give much focus to any potential romance aspect, which begs the question of then why make the ending to your magnum opus "and everyone was married with kids"

Pretty sure he just wanted to show what life was like after things calmed down. spoiler[ Ichigo being married to Orihime and Rukia being married to Renji was just a natural thing. Besides it was just those 4. It's not like it showed 10 different pairings or anything.]

CrowLia wrote:

Around the time the Aizen arc was wrapped up, Kubo said he intended to write two more arcs, one short one that would last around a year (that ended up being the much reviled Fullbringer arc) and a longer one that would last about 5 years. Whether Jump took that estimated timeline as a hard limit for him to finish the story is unknown tho.

I don't remember that particular interview, but I do remember the ones he did right before the final arc started where he stated he had planned for TYBW to be the longest arc and that Bleach could run for 10 more years. Neither of those things happened though due to his health (though even if his health wasn't bad, I don't think TYBW would have run for 10 years). Many of us thought Jump rushed Kubo back when the manga ended, I was there for all of it. We now know through Kubo's own words through statements/interviews etc that wasn't the case. It seems some people still don't know that, though I guess that shouldn't surprise me when you still have people saying the anime was cancelled even after it was literally announced to be coming back.

Touma55 wrote:

Pretty sure he just wanted to show what life was like after things calmed down. spoiler[ Ichigo being married to Orihime and Rukia being married to Renji was just a natural thing. Besides it was just those 4. It's not like it showed 10 different pairings or anything.]

Except there's nothing natural about showing us characters got married when you clearly never took the time to develop those relationships and even explicitly said you didn't care to do so. And no, Character A being explicitly in love with Character B does not constitute "relationship development" when Character B never even becomes aware of those feelings in 700 chapters of story, and in fact never displays any interest in the concept of romance at all, let alone romantic inclinations for any one character.

To bring back the comparison to Naruto, at least Naruto did express romantic interest in Sakura, from early on so the idea of romance and relationships is part of the main character's interests and concerns since the start of the story. Likewise, Sakura is explicitly crushing on Sasuke and Hinata on Naruto throughout the whole series and spoiler[she even confesses to Naruto halfway through the series, when Naruto is awake and listening]. Even if the all married with kids ending is still pretty underdevelopped for Naruto, it still feels like it has more of a leg to stand on. Ichigo never even seems to consider the concept of romance, never shows to have a crush on anyone and never realizes Orihime has feelings for him, nor does she ever tell him. There isn't even some sort of climactic moment between them in the last few chapters leading up to the finale. There was nothing natural or necessary about that suddenly "and i guess they're married with kids now" ending

Worth noting, and maybe the anime will adapt this, there is a novel called We Do Knot Always Love You which is about Rukia and Renji's wedding and does have Ichigo confessing to Orihime there. I kind of want this chapter to show that part of the novel, but I have a feeling the ceremony is going to be something entirely different.

Touma55 wrote:

Alright I get what you're saying, but what do you mean when you say what the big 3 did wasn't normal? It was absolutely normal for a battle series to do especially one in Shonen Jump.

What I mean is that it is not normal for a healthy teen-aged male not to show some interest in pretty girls of his own age when he's in constant contact with them under stressful situations, and vice versa. Whether or not that turns into a full-blown relationship is a different matter.

Luffy, for example, showing *no interest* in Boa Hancock is even explicitly portrayed *in Universe* as being extremely abnormal -- unique, even. That is *not normal*.

Ichigo displays no interest in any of the women around him, including Orihime. Yes, she shows interest in him several times, but never the reverse. Sure, he wants to protect her when she's in trouble, but he did the same thing for Rukia and for several other characters, some of which were male. That is *not normal*.

Naruto never showed any romantic interest in Hinata during the series that I could see, except during the Pain arc, and that was only in how enraged he got when he thought she'd been killed. OTOH, he crushed on Sakura for a long time, of course, but as we all know, he dropped that. But he never acknowledged Hinata's feelings for him after she declared that she loved him. He was the most normal of the three in this respect, but narratively the whole thing appeared abrupt and fairly clumsy. Heck, I thought Shikimaru and Temari's relationship was far more natural and the outcome more sensible than what happened between Naruto and Hinata.

I'll admit: I'm not Japanese, so maybe there were cultural cues that I just am unable to see. But from my perspective, most teen male Shonen characters display an unnatural lack of attraction to the opposite sex. This is what I meant when I said "unnatural" earlier. And, again, I'll reiterate that this is a choice of the mangaka, and they have every right to take that route (or avoid it, I guess you could say). It's something I've come to expect, but it isn't something I've come to like.

Did some cleanup. People can actually have differing opinions without being insulted for them. That doesn't make them delusional for not sharing your own idea. Just because you talked to some people that share your view doesn't mean everyone else has to or that it's the only idea. I suggest some of you agree to disagree at this point and move on.

1-shot dropped today. It wasn't bad, it was just more of what you would expect from Bleach. It was fairly bloated at 75 pages for all it delivered. Made some interestingspoiler[ lore revelations before just kinda ending with a "The End". No hints of future dates or chapters. Ho hum.]

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