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Small and Childlike Adult Characters




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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@



Joined: 14 Feb 2006
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Location: IN your nightmares
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 12:07 am Reply with quote
In the Talkback Section there was a post (now deleted) about adult female characters or ones in their later teens who look much younger points to a problem in Japan, and was coined as a 'loli problem.' As an example, I'll reference Futaba Igarashi from My Senpai is Annoying but I might actually be contradicting my point if I mention Bludgeoning Angel Dokuro-chan. What is the basis of or reasoning of such characters creating any kind of problem in Japan or elsewhere, or even that such a problem exists at all?

Sure you can personally dislike or feel uncomfortable when an adult character (male or female) is depicted as looking like an elementary school student. But I think that is possibly due to some kind of personal insecurity about gender, sexuality or just preference. There is no evidence of any kind of systematic cultural flaw existing because of or related to youthful depiction of adults in anime or manga.

Or is there?
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:00 am Reply with quote
I am aware of things like fetishization of youth, concepts that could start with simple things like disparaging women for getting older, to having an excuse to sexualise what seems to be an actual child while saying doing a bare minimum of saying they are not actually a child. The first has some sexist that can be kind of toxic to women, the second is almost like an open invitation for something like paedophile culture.

I myself, would be a hypocrite for saying that it is all bad and inherently a problem. I think that real people can look really young or short, so it shouldn't be something so far as saying someone would be bad for looking young as not an actual adult. A personal favourite archetype might be the ones that do show that despite their small appearance are adults, such as wear a suit or something. Like Aoba from New Game, who gets mistaken as younger than she is, but wears her business suit and has her own quirks.

While I understand some of the concern, I don't think it is a hard problem.
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:45 am Reply with quote
Good points, Dusky. One thing I'd like to suggest that might get some fans worked up about this so called, 'loli problem' is a matter of perspective. The vast majority of anime has characters who are not adults and sometimes you have characters that are just tall or mature looking for their age and others who are very much the opposite. No big deal as long as they're all Jr. Highschoolers. Once in a while a show featuring all adult characters comes out, suddenly this difference in characters' heights and appearance which we take for granted becomes an issue when the plot digs deeper into mature situations between characters than a show featuring adolescents.
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:54 pm Reply with quote
Past wrote:


Sure you can personally dislike or feel uncomfortable when an adult character (male or female) is depicted as looking like an elementary school student. But I think that is possibly due to some kind of personal insecurity about gender, sexuality or just preference. There is no evidence of any kind of systematic cultural flaw existing because of or related to youthful depiction of adults in anime or manga.

Or is there?


Common now, are we really going to ignore the blatant sexualization many of these young (often pre-pubescent in looks) looking characters receive, and label it as some sort of personal insecurity on the part of the viewer? Really? It's the viewer's personal insecurities that is the problem, not the blatant sexualization of said elementary looking characters? Yea, any normal person wouldn't possibly have an issue with that. I'm sorry but this seems like a ridiculous idea to excuse away enjoying such titillations of minor looking characters so the person doesn't feel guilty or dirty for it. No, it's societies problem that most people would react in the manner you would expect them to react to such material. Rolling Eyes

There is a vast difference between a youthful looking character, and what is often drawn or animated with an obvious titillation factor incorporated into the character designs (and camera angle choices). Having a character who is youthful in appearance or small in stature, but who has actual character depth and is treated like an actual important part of the story is not the same as a similar character used mostly for sexual innuendos, pervy gag comedy, or some other sort of sexualization. It's rather disingenuous to insinuate otherwise. There is a vast difference between say Yuki Yuna is a Hero, and say Strike Witches. There is a vast difference between a short adult female character who doesn't have her dress blown up, breasts groped in gag comedy, or is used in some other sort of sexual comedy/sexualized material, and one that is not. Let's also not ignore the fact that this is vastly a one sided case with this sort of treatment and issue being primarily used on female characters, and justified mostly by male viewers. Let's not ignore facts because they're inconvenient.

If someone enjoys a very young looking character used in these sorts of situations then that's your thing. Good for you. But don't sit there and try to pretend that most people would not have an issue with the same character in those sorts of sexualized situations or designed with those sexualized aspects to the character. Don't act surprised either when many fans are quick to initially cast doubt or side glances at a title with such a character. Considering more often then not such characters are used for some sort of titillations it's reasonable for many fans to be dubious of a character, until it's shown that is not the path the anime/manga is taking with that character.

As for Japan as a country, it has a long standing habit of promoting this sort of youthful sexualized imagery. Say hello to the idol industry for starters. The whole idea there is to promote this young virtuous image, but also sexualize it in the process. It's their version of many Disney teen shows that do the same thing. Again, you (generalized you) might not have an issue with such things, but it is entirely disingenuous to think most normal people would not. It's even more disingenuous, and downright ridiculous, to suggest that those people are just insecure themselves by not preferring to see characters who look like kids be sexualized.
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:55 am Reply with quote
I may be the OP but I actually came into this discussion with mostly an inquisitive stance. It was a topic brought up by someone else and I just wanted to bring it to light in the appropriate forum. If what I said about insecurities bothers anyone, let me clarify that was just a suggestion among many possible alternatives to there being a societal problem at large. Point taken that "normal" people should naturally be offended with all this apparent sexualization associated with youthful characters. But what is normal? Normal for North America, normal for Japan? We might use "normal" to describe people who watch heterosexual hentai, but what does that say about fans of yaoi?

And another thing about normalcy, aren't we as anime fans in the West applying a Western standard of beauty to content from a country with a completely different (but just as valid and historically important) standard? It can be perceived that childlike characters are portrayed in sexually provocative or exploitative ways. But let's take the topic of idols that was pointed out. Idols are people who willingly appear in front of others to look attractive and show off their talents and enjoy doing it. The majority of them are children so the Western argument might be they are being exploited because are too young to choose this occupation. However, this stigma that age makes it appropriate for one person to dress attractively and not for another doesn't exist to as much of a degree in Japan. Which is beside the point of my original argument: adults. Having a large bust and tall shapely figure doesn't make you an adult, being an adult makes you an adult!
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Errinundra
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:43 am Reply with quote
Locking thread.

We don't need any more of your soapboxing, Past.
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Errinundra
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:54 pm Reply with quote
Separate post due to the time difference.

The matter has been discussed on the staff / moderators forum.

We've decided that it's appropriate to have this thread in the anime forum. If discussion continues, great, but if it stops, please don't start new threads to keep the topic live. That would constitute soapboxing.

Should discussion dry up, this thread can be resurrected in the future if there is some sort of new, relevant material (for example a new anime that touches upon the subject).

Also note that, in order to keep discussion polite, please avoid making personal comments.
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Chocobos



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:22 am Reply with quote
For a long time I was convinced that Kurilín from DBZ was a child
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Blood-
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:03 am Reply with quote
To address the OP's question:

Quote:
There is no evidence of any kind of systematic cultural flaw existing because of or related to youthful depiction of adults in anime or manga.

Or is there?


First, I don't think many people have an issue with adult characters who look like children UNLESS those characters are sexualized. They may be chronological adults but appearances trump all and most people would not like to see a child-like figure being sexualized. Our brains simply aren't wired to dispassionately think, "yes, that character looks ten, but I heard another character say he/she was actually 35, so naturally I'm totally cool with this."

The same goes with loli characters who are actually child aged. I don't think many people have an issue with them as long as they aren't sexualized.

I don't believe there is any kind of "systematic cultural flaw" in Japan that leads to adult characters who look like children. Although it is a trope that appears in manga/anime, I think the general Japanese population (i.e. non-otakus) would feel much the same way as I noted above: no problem with adult characters who look like kids AS LONG as they aren't sexualized. I think some non-Japanese fans think that just because some element recurs in manga/anime, that means the Japanese population as a whole is cool with it. That's not the case. That's why the designation of "otaku" is often a pejorative term among the general Japanese public. There is a perception that to be otaku is to be perverted and the sexualization of child-looking adult characters or of actual lolis certainly doesn't help dispel that perception.
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lightturner



Joined: 07 Aug 2021
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:41 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
I don't believe there is any kind of "systematic cultural flaw" in Japan that leads to adult characters who look like children. Although it is a trope that appears in manga/anime, I think the general Japanese population (i.e. non-otakus) would feel much the same way as I noted above: no problem with adult characters who look like kids AS LONG as they aren't sexualized. I think some non-Japanese fans think that just because some element recurs in manga/anime, that means the Japanese population as a whole is cool with it. That's not the case. That's why the designation of "otaku" is often a pejorative term among the general Japanese public. There is a perception that to be otaku is to be perverted and the sexualization of child-looking adult characters or of actual lolis certainly doesn't help dispel that perception.


It's not really limited to otaku stuff You find it in mainstream anime as well. It's not even limited to anime and manga and can be found in live-action media, the music industry and fashion. A couple years ago western fans got upset with huge singer Kyary Pamyu Pamyu when she admitted to liking shota and called a boy she worked with cute and boycott her and any company or group that work with her.

I'm dunno what the point of the topic is. I guess to defend loli and shota I guess. I don't think it needs defending, though. It'll exist no matter how many complaints it gets from the west. Big companies and artists go to bat for it all the time every time Australia or America try to get Japan to crack down on it and their response is usually to point how how those countries have more actual sexual abuse victims than Japan does and they should worry about that more. Sad
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:23 pm Reply with quote
Japan may have fewer REPORTED cases of sexual abuse but I wonder if they have actual lower rates.
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lightturner



Joined: 07 Aug 2021
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:03 am Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
Japan may have fewer REPORTED cases of sexual abuse but I wonder if they have actual lower rates.


i don't doubt crime is under reported but that's the same for every country isn't it.
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Chiibi



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:21 pm Reply with quote
lightturner wrote:
every time Australia or America try to get Japan to crack down on it and their response is usually to point how how those countries have more actual sexual abuse victims than Japan does and they should worry about that more. Sad


Japan's absolutely right about that too...isn't it kind of....uh....OUT OF LINE for other countries to try to control what kind of art another country is making?

It's like "mind your own business." Nobody is being hurt by this. No actual studies back up that "kids are being hurt by this."

It boils down to "We don't like it so nobody else is allowed to like it either."
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Jose Cruz



Joined: 20 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 5:15 pm Reply with quote
There are many examples in anime.

A good example is Shino Sonobe from 3 Leaves, 3 Colours is in her mid-30s but is supposed to look like 12. Another good example is the teacher Tsukuyomi Komoe from A Certain Magical Index. In To Love Ru, King Gid Lucione Deviluke, the father of the female protagonist, is like thousands of years old but looks like a small child.

In anime a character's appeareance is sometimes completely disconnected from the sex, age, and ethnicity. I like that. Anime is all about taking your imagination as far as it can go anyway.
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Myrick



Joined: 24 Dec 2021
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2021 11:07 pm Reply with quote
I think it's a problem because while it may channel desire to a non-fictional character, in supply & demand it still increases demand for lolicon stuff and children.
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