Forum - View topicREVIEW: Cowboy Bebop Live-Action
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NeverConvex
 Subscriber Posts: 2301 |
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This is a very dishonest description of Faye's role in the anime. Yes, there is one important scene in which she's basically a damsel in distress (actually, maybe two? Brain Scratch maybe counts as well, though it's been a while); and, yes, she uses her 'feminine wiles', or however you want to put it, as a primary part of her skillset; but she spends much of the show fighting effectively and making proactive decisions. Last edited by NeverConvex on Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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everydaygamer
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I wasn't nescesarrily talking about Faye but yeah, having a female character that uses her body to get what she wants would be considered problematic by today's standards. |
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NeverConvex
Subscriber Posts: 2301 |
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^
Why? I would agree that it is important that stories also be told in which women gain power in other ways (or achieve their goals, or what-have-you; 'gain power' was a bit unintentionally narrow), and am happy we're in the middle of a significant wave of new media productions & literature featuring female leads with wider variety than used to be the case, but I don't see why "modern sensibilities" imply some need to outlaw the femme fatale archetype, especially when adapting older material in which that forms the basic outline of one of the main characters. Adhering to that kind of narrow set of requirements is almost certainly going to ruin (EDIT: well, harm; ruin was a melodramatic word to use here) most adaptations of older stories - not necessarily because re-telling them while massive overhauling key characters is impossible, but because it is hard to make changes that large to an already effectively told story while maintaining the feeling and cohesion of the original. |
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everydaygamer
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^
The problem is most people watching this show aren't gonna be aware of the anime so it has to stand on its own. It can't just use the anime as an excuse for doing things that were fine 20 years ago but are viewed as problematic by today's standards. |
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NeverConvex
Subscriber Posts: 2301 |
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I don't think that quite addresses my question, though, everydaygamer. I mean -- yes, I think it is especially pertinent because this is an adaptation, and large changes to an adaptation create special risks not present in a new work written from scratch.
But at the core of it I was really just asking: why is a woman who flirts suggestively to distract a mark before robbing him an unacceptable character (which is the most common way I recall Faye behaving like this), in your view? I realize there was a time when this was one of just a few narrow roles most female characters were cast in, and I can understand not wanting to write very many of those characters, now, but I don't understand just labeling that archetype 'problematic' and deciding it's unacceptable to ever write. I'd rather see it become one of a large variety of female characters, rather than just removing it from the archetype pantheon, if you will. |
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everydaygamer
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I think its probably fine for minor characters but there is this expectation that when one of your main characters is a woman that they will be more than just a pretty face. But I don't pretend to be an expert on what is considered ok. |
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Cutiebunny
 Posts: 1747 |
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Why is it considered problematic when an attractive woman uses her assets to con? And, in that same vein, is it ok if an attractive man does the same? I get that society wants to add more personality to women characters than relying on a character's personality as being defined as 'just a pretty face'. That message would be perfectly acceptable to push if Cowboy Bebop were aimed at young children. But, it's not. As much as society wants to say that it's advancing the rights for all genders, sexual preferences and backgrounds, there will always be people who will use their physical attributes to get ahead.. And, as this is a large part of who Faye is, I don't think it's wrong to incorporate that aspect into her live-action character. There were plenty of more subtle ways they could have fleshed this aspect of Faye's character out in the live action that they chose to ignore. |
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Errinundra
Moderator
 Posts: 6525 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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Cleaning up this thread.
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Cardcaptor Takato
 Posts: 4823 |
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It is perfectly fine to not like Bebop or not think it's a flawless masterpiece. It's also fine to like both a remake and the original source material of something while acknowledging the original might have flaws or that a 20+ year show might be a little dated (the Gren arc anyone?). There are plenty of shows and movies out there where people like the remake more than the original and it's perfectly acceptable to do so. Even in anime fandom there's lots of people who like Bubblgum Crisis Tokyo 2040 more than the 80s OVAs and people who like the live action Sailor Moon more than the 90s anime and that is acceptable. Just a few months ago we had the final film of the Evangelion remakes and lots of fans said they liked it better than the original anime. I still kind of like the original Evangelion more but it's not a big deal other fans like the Rebuild movies more.
There have been anime fans who don't like Bebop or think it's over-rated for decades now long before this remake came out. It's not helping your cause to trash the live action remake while getting upset when someone doesn't like the anime. Cowboy Bebop being beloved or popular doesn't mean no one is allowed to criticize the original show ever. Making broad assumptions about anyone who is critical of the original source material is not a defense of the source material. The person who made the original comment didn't even say the original Bebop was bad. They just said it wasn't perfect which is hardly a controversial statement. |
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Errinundra
Moderator
Posts: 6525 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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Clean up completed.
Posts were removed or edited for the following reasons: * Abuse directed at other posters * Political grandstanding * Anti-difference dog whistling * Soapboxing Some quite acceptable posts were also removed as they made no sense without the deleted posts. A couple had some thought and effort put into them so it was a shame giving them the chop. (An hour and eight minutes of my life wasted.) |
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ladybot
Posts: 5 |
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It’s very infrequent that I post here, but I’ll do it for this. I wasn’t like OH WOW I LOOOOOVE NETFLIX COWBOY BEBOP but I sure didn’t hate it! I thought it was fun. It had some weak spots, but the good generally outweighed the bad for me. I don’t have a lot to say that hasn’t been said already other than that I am old, female, watched Cowboy Bebop when it was still relatively new, watched all of the new show, and I came out of it with some thoughts:
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JoelBurger
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Since it got deleted, I guess my takeaway here is that it's apparently a good thing that Christopher Yost and a room full of other white dudes basically went up to Keiko Nobumoto (a Japanese woman) and said "don't worry, we'll fix the problems of anime and your horrible treatment of women", before stumbling over themselves to come up with new ways for Faye to curse (because that's what makes a strong woman, not having actual character).
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AiddonValentine
Posts: 2204 |
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I think the best way to describe this series is that it's insecure. The script is just so fully of insufferable, milquetoast quips, like it's afraid of being called "emo" or something if something serious happens and as such it's just kind of hollow.
I knew something was wrong with this series when they started doing those comparison shots with the original anime and if anything it just showed they were more interested on the surface level aesthetics than the actual substance. That's not a good way to go into an adaptation and as we've seen, it didn't turn out well at all. Live action anime adaptations are likely going to continue (because anime is popular) but it's going to be awhile until we get a good one. |
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penguintruth
 Posts: 8461 Location: Penguinopolis |
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This is exactly right. The show is insecure. It's like it's afraid that it'll be ridiculed for taking itself seriously. |
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Beatdigga
 Posts: 4371 Location: New York |
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I think you nailed it. You’d think after a decade of live action adaptations of funny books finally had directors get over their fear of colorful outfits and seemingly silly ideas, that Hollywood wouldn’t still be trying to play the “too cool for school” card. Which of course begs the question why adapt the property in the first place. You are not better than the property, as the torrent of unfavorable reviews clearly shows. Live action anime will continue, and the amount of them will likely increase significantly as anime continues to be tied to streaming services without any sort of disconnect or segmentation, while the comic book well runs dry. And while we know it’s not impossible for them to be good, getting a project that gets the sort of wide-scale acceptance the MCU has is going to take a while. |
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