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The Skeptic's Guide to Monogatari


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Yttrbio
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Joined: 09 Jun 2011
Posts: 3649
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:03 pm Reply with quote
TF wrote:
I've got this series on my "want to see" list.
Since there are some people here who have watched it, what order whould I go with? The internet is a bit dubious about it. I've found chronological order list and as well as release order lists and people claiming that you should watch it chronological and other people saying that watching it that way ruins your experience.

What would you guys advice me? Should I go with chronological order or just watch it in the release order?
I'd say try release order, because the assumptions about what the viewer knows assume you're watching in release order (sort of). But I could easily see the argument for going to chronological if you find yourself falling off the first season. (though in that case, maybe it's best to just steer clear)

Certainly the approach to fanservice is a bit different from its contemporaries. It's the kind of fanservice that makes you think "wait, is it fanservice?" As in, it's not really aiming to put a smile on the viewer's face the way that flashing a tit might. For me, the toothbrushing scene was hilarious because it was more of a joke about the way fanservice is presented than it was fanservice itself (along the lines of "The courage to betray!").
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Shwiggie



Joined: 18 Nov 2005
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Location: MS
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:13 pm Reply with quote
I watched the first two seasons and enjoyed them despite having to piece them together at the same time as dealing with the ever-present walls of text. Then I lost track of it, thinking it was over...only to realize much later that several sets of animated material had been put out since. Of course, I had no concept as to their order or how they connected to the earlier works, and I really didn't think I had it in me to dive back into the fustercluck of a series. I may go back now that it's been some years and rewatch the whole thing in an order that doesn't suck.
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BlueAlf



Joined: 02 Jan 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:01 pm Reply with quote
Man, I wanna get slapped by my wife from watching Monogatari too.
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Gina Szanboti



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 11306
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:00 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
an unsuspecting viewer is likely to feel utterly overwhelmed by the walls of text

This is the obstacle for me, just as it was in Tatami Galaxy, and that also kept me from diving into Sayonara Zetsubou-Sensei, which I actually really loved, what I could bear to wade through.

A few years ago, Nick reviewed this for the Classic Streaming Reviews, so I thought maybe I'd give it a go. I made it about 4 min into the third episode and then I was just too pissed off to continue. If Simbo and Oishi think it's more important to be edgy and artsy with subliminal storytelling, that's fine, but if it doesn't matter to them whether I know what the story is, then it doesn't matter to me to spend time trying to freeze frame my way through this mess to figure it out (and streaming players aren't cut out for it anyway). I can't pay attention to what is up on the screen long enough to register because I'm too distracted being annoyed that there's another conversation rudely going on in front of me in what might as well be another language. I can see why people would like it, and all the 4-frame text screens would work fine in manga form, but this isn't manga and I just don't have the required patience for this shit.

It doesn't matter if people tell me to ignore those inserts. I can't. It's a fundamental part of my constitution that I can't. But it's so frustrating trying to hit pause quickly enough every 3 seconds, and having to back up and try again, that after one episode I'm drained and furious. So I think it's best for me to leave this franchise alone. Not even Takahiro Sakurai, Hiroshi Kamiya, and Miyuki Sawashiro are a substantial enough draw to overcome this obstacle for me.
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Ojamajo LimePie



Joined: 09 Nov 2007
Posts: 762
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:39 pm Reply with quote
For those who want to watch, Funimation streams everything except Kizu. Crunchyroll is also missing Kizu, plus the last 3 episodes of Bake, which were released direct to DVD (yes, they are important to the plot.)
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thepepin



Joined: 22 Jun 2022
Posts: 69
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:24 pm Reply with quote
Yttrbio wrote:
TF wrote:
I've got this series on my "want to see" list.
Since there are some people here who have watched it, what order whould I go with? The internet is a bit dubious about it. I've found chronological order list and as well as release order lists and people claiming that you should watch it chronological and other people saying that watching it that way ruins your experience.

What would you guys advice me? Should I go with chronological order or just watch it in the release order?
I'd say try release order, because the assumptions about what the viewer knows assume you're watching in release order (sort of). But I could easily see the argument for going to chronological if you find yourself falling off the first season. (though in that case, maybe it's best to just steer clear)

Certainly the approach to fanservice is a bit different from its contemporaries. It's the kind of fanservice that makes you think "wait, is it fanservice?" As in, it's not really aiming to put a smile on the viewer's face the way that flashing a tit might. For me, the toothbrushing scene was hilarious because it was more of a joke about the way fanservice is presented than it was fanservice itself (along the lines of "The courage to betray!").


I watched it in release order. While some episodes did make references to events that aired later, it didn't matter much at all. So long as you watch Bakemonogatari first or maybe the Kizumonogatari prequel movies and next Bakemonogatari then all of the other series are largely self-contained. I would even say that the individual arcs within the series are to a degree self-contained.

As for the "wait, is it fanservice?" Monogatari is less concerned with showing skin that it is making Koyomi's attractions part of the story. Note: what follows can be considered a spoilerish I guess, but a spoiler of a show that started in 2009 and ended 5 years ago. But just in case, feel free to skip the rest.

In addition to being a deconstruction of the very idea of a hero (Katanagari, by the same author, does the same though with a very different story) because "people can't save others as you can only save yourself" Monogatari is a character study of Koyomi. Koyomi is deeply flawed, knows it and is filled with self-hatred as a result (the main point of the Ogi Oshino arc). His sexual thoughts and desires are a major part of him (a teenage boy after all) and as a result play a significant part in the character study. That is the purpose of the alleged fanservice. For example, Kanbaru is a gorgeous lesbian who reads BL while nude, is in love with Koyomi's girlfriend Hitagi and offers to have as much sex with Koyomi as he wants if he will break up with Hitagi so she can pursue her. Major fanservice fodder, right? Well if that is what you want prepare to be disappointed. Do they actually show Kanbaru's body? Nope. You see more of Bulma in Dragon Ball, Shizuka in Doraemon and Misty in Pokemon. Does Koyomi agree to Kanbaru's indecent proposal, perhaps to depict an imagine spot where he fantasizes about it? Nope because he doesn't consider it even for a second. Any of the slapstick "Koyomi trips and falls on top of her accidentally kissing/groping her in the process?" Nope. They do nothing but explore Koyomi's ambivalent fascination with the kinky lesbian.

The same with Hanekawa. Koyomi desires her pinup model body, but beyond once flipping her skirt never pursues it even though she invites him to multiple times. Mayoi? The narrative mentions her being busty for a middle schooler, but merely to depict Koyomi's attraction to preteen girls. Unlike, say, the fanservicey anime adaptations of Koharu Sakuraba's Minami-Ke and Kyou no Go no Ni and their treatment of middle school females, Monogatari never shows Mayoi's body, even when she is aged up to match Koyomi in an alternate universe.

Also, when Koyomi flips Yotsugi's skirt, it is all about revealing Koyomi. Early on (chronologically) he tried to deny or minimize his attractions. He initially claimed to be uninterested in his sisters when Hanekawa teases him about them. A short time later he similarly claimed not to be at all interested in Kanbaru - while she was trying to get him to react to her reading pornography naked right in front of him - by claiming that his sisters were more attractive. But the Yotsugi thing happened much later in the story. By that time Koyomi had given up on all pretenses of being anything what he was, but not because he accepted his feelings as OK like "male pervert" anime characters usually do. Actually it was the opposite. The PTSD from his horrific fights and guilt from his failures caused his self esteem to crater. So he spends a very extended stretch walking behind Yotsugi while holding up her skirt so to stare at her behind while hating himself for it the entire time. Was both hilarious and tragic, but - unlike plenty of other shows made around the same time - the viewer never saw what Koyomi did.

I get that Monogatari can lead to some awkward moments if someone walks in while you are watching it an an inopportune time, but the same is true of Sayonara, Zetsubou-Sensei, whose third season aired at the same time as the first of Monogatari and whose frequent fanservice of school age girls no one makes an issue of. But beyond that, I am very curious as to what the "Monotagari fanservice!" people believe themselves to have seen. And more importantly what, if anything, they regard its purpose. Especially in comparison to the violence.
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@



Joined: 14 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:13 am Reply with quote
AksaraKishou wrote:
HarveyJeckyll wrote:
It is not a simple specie of fanservice. It is controversial fanservice with a pedophilia and incest context to create controversy among the community, the point of the article is to let you think about these elements before you decide whether it is the type of fanservice you are willing to set your eyes on.


Doesn't actually have any pedophillia or incest, so eh
Which most of us agree with. Its just the words that people who DO have an issue with fanservice like to throw around because those prudes and puritans need a kind of boogieman to put labels on to feel better about themselves. That they are actually making an impact on "all the evil and perversion" in the world.

I think it's important to pay special attention to this part of HarveyJeckyll's post I put in bold letters.
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livin_large



Joined: 10 Nov 2021
Posts: 107
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:54 am Reply with quote
Past wrote:
Which most of us agree with. Its just the words that people who DO have an issue with fanservice like to throw around because those prudes and puritans need a kind of boogieman to put labels on to feel better about themselves. That they are actually making an impact on "all the evil and perversion" in the world.


I'm not sure why people care so much what those people think. I hate to quote Rick and Morty of all things but the phrase "your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer" really applies here. I can only see people unironically say things like "it's time for anime and manga to grow up like American cartoons and comics have" so many times before it becomes a point of parody. Let them suffocate in their own celebration of mediocrity if it makes them feel morally superior.
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b-dragon



Joined: 21 Apr 2021
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:59 am Reply with quote
I remember watching the first series (by release order,) and being thoroughly whelmed. It felt like a mediocre story and characters, achieving relevance and cultural penetration through a combination of excellent production values, gimicky storytelling choices, and reams of dialogue designed to obfuscate and distract. And the head tilt. That's important. I didn't hate it by any stretch, but after killing time with the first series I had absolutely no impetus to continue forward.

I think many of us have met someone, in school or work or wherever, that is absolutely obsessed with their own perceived intellect (which is likely not well anchored in reality.) That's how Monogatari struck me.
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Doctorkev



Joined: 17 Feb 2018
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:48 am Reply with quote
b-dragon wrote:
I remember watching the first series (by release order,) and being thoroughly whelmed. It felt like a mediocre story and characters, achieving relevance and cultural penetration through a combination of excellent production values, gimicky storytelling choices, and reams of dialogue designed to obfuscate and distract. And the head tilt. That's important. I didn't hate it by any stretch, but after killing time with the first series I had absolutely no impetus to continue forward.

I think many of us have met someone, in school or work or wherever, that is absolutely obsessed with their own perceived intellect (which is likely not well anchored in reality.) That's how Monogatari struck me.


I had a very similar take to you regarding the first season, but found that the show really grew on me during the second and final seasons. Perhaps that was a Stockholm Syndrome effect given the amount of time it took to watch the whole thing (twice over, as I wrote reviews of each individual story arc over the three years it took me to watch through from beginning to end).
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Sasuke149



Joined: 09 Sep 2009
Posts: 50
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:35 pm Reply with quote
I actually LOVED everything about Monogatari when I first watched it many years ago. The animation, dialogue, comedy, pacing... everything was perfect. Except the fan service. It was just too much. Dropped it after the first season. I always feel sad when I can't continue a series due to excessive fan service (e.g. Kill La Kill).
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Joe Mello



Joined: 31 May 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:36 pm Reply with quote
I've watched pieces of it; I would not deny its success as Art, but I would dispute its success as Commercial Art, but that's okay.

I also keep thinking Katanagatari is somehow part of this.
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kakugo complete



Joined: 01 Jul 2020
Posts: 71
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:55 pm Reply with quote
"you should watch this DESPITE these elements that even I admit are all over the place in this show" there is so much anime to watch with experimental visuals and nonstandard storytelling without these elements yet you chose to watch this and write as long thinkpiece analyzing it. I don't believe you really hate "objectification" you just feel obligated to say you do
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Zalis116
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:51 pm Reply with quote
AksaraKishou wrote:


Doesn't actually have any pedophillia or incest, so eh

Wow, this is incredibly low-effort bait, so eh

BlueAlf wrote:
Man, I wanna get slapped by my wife from watching Monogatari too.

I just wonder what the schedule of punishments is. Maybe something like this?

Toothbrush scene = slap
Shinobu/Tsukihi bathing scenes = slap + divorce
Mayoi molestation scenes = slap + divorce + reported to authorities
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BH0



Joined: 13 Jul 2022
Posts: 19
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:53 pm Reply with quote
The otaku fanservice is pretty much part of the core and appeal of the show, tho. I can't imagine it without it.

Also, Monogatari was very mainstream in Japan. I think it was so huge that it could almost be compared to Cream Lemon in terms of being shows with some of the most obscure otaku fetishes reaching mainstream success. Tatsuki Fujimoto for example, one of the rising stars in modern years, was inspired by it when drawing Denji vs. Makima.
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