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Ghostswillpassthroughhere wrote:

God, why is it that when a non-binary or trans character shows up in any form of media it's instantly marked as 'pandering'

Like we exist, it's not like they made us up. Can't I just have some representation of my gender without people getting all upset about it, it's exhausting

It's probably because a lot of times it pops up in media it's handled very poorly. I saw a clip of the scene where one character tells a riddle about the last man on Earth hearing a knock on the door and then when he says the answer is a woman another character goes on a tirade about if you think only men and women exist in the world you're an indiot with no redeeming qualities. It felt like someone you'd see on Twitter just lecturing the player. Then another scene had a girl saying she wished she could go around the world and kill everyone who disagrees with her. Even if these were messages I agreed with I'd say those were super forced and come off pretty bad.

All the examples that get memed on the internet are about as close as you can get from a character actually turning towards the camera mid scene to deliver a PSA, like the whole magic gender potion in High Guardian Spice or Marvel's Snowflake and Safespace. I'd say Puri Puri Prisoner from One Punch Man is more genuine and subtle than stuff since he's an actual character rather than a mouthpiece or talking point. So he's actually entertaining to watch and a fun character overall no matter his sexuality or gender identity.

Cardcaptor Takato wrote:

Can ANN not do something about the transphobia in these kind of threads?

I’m thirding this. I don’t post often, but these kinds of issues have been getting really bad in the forums lately.

BadNewsBlues wrote:

Is there a particular reason the PS4 version outsold the Switch version?

It seems like a game Sony fans would be more interested in than Nintendo fans. Switch gamers supported Omega Labyrinth Life instead. I watched a streamer play the first game and it was okay. The second game sounds absolutely dreadful and it appears Uchikoshi listened to the worst parts of the fandom though. If that's the lot he wants to throw his chips in with then that's his choice. Hopefully it works out better for him than others who have tried.

Cardcaptor Takato wrote:

Can ANN not do something about the transphobia in these kind of threads?

And I think it would be great if ANN stopped covering transphobic series and creators, but they won't. Transphobia is too profitable in this industry. Thankfully we have some Good Eggs like Uchikoshi here fighting the good fight even if the rest of Japan wont.

Bonham wrote:

lossthief wrote:

FeelMyBlade wrote:

I think it's pretty well known Uchikoshi's works have always done poorly in Japan and had more success overseas so it's not exactly a wrong assumption in this case.

It's an assumption based on such a deeply cynical and morally derelict worldview that treating it as reasonable says more about the person making the argument, imo. The idea is that anyone (in this case, Uchikoshi) cannot hold sincere beliefs that aren't solely centered on their own person, that empathy or allyship is inherently a ploy for money/clout/attention/whatehaveyou. It's essentially saying "there's no way any person could actually believe trans and nonbinary are worthy of respect or dignity, so anyone saying they do is lying" which, again, says more about the person saying it than anyone else.

In this case it's also intersecting with this blindingly stupid idea that Japan, as an entire country, does not have LGBT people or anyone who supports them or even believes they exist, and any Japanese person who says otherwise is lying or has been tricked by some cabal of western activists brainwashing the poor, unsuspecting Japanese people. So it's both good old fashioned orientalism, but packaged in an insultingly infantilizing wrapper to support this fantasy version of Japan that doesn't have anything equivalent to the political nuance and complexity of every other country on the planet.

The casual orientalism and aggressive anti-LGBT attitudes displayed in this thread from the poster you quoted, as well as others like Touma55 and FunkyDude88 comes from either a severe bad faith reading, ignorance of the fact that LGBT people exist in Japan (I guess all of those manga and anime, two of their favorite media, about LGBT people are just pandering to Westerners, including those that have never been licensed?), or histrionic reactionaries trying to dismiss this. Perhaps it's a combination thereof, and the idea that LGBT people like myself and others exist throughout the world, including Japan, and history is an affront to their sensibilities.

Considering all of that...

Cardcaptor Takato wrote:

Can ANN not do something about the transphobia in these kind of threads?

I'm seconding this. These types will try to play dumb and pretend that it's not really about that, but we routinely see them getting upset at these specific topics.

Did you seriously just call me anti-LGBT? And wtf do you mean by casual orientalism? I am a part of the LGBTQ+ community as well and I thought I made that clear in my posts. Also where did I say LGBTQ+ people don't exist in Japan? I said we are treated poorly here by a large number of the population not that we didn't exist. Sorry I don't think the exact same way as you do, but In no way does that make me anti-LGBT. Can you explain how I was anti-LGBT in any way?

Bonham wrote:

The casual orientalism and aggressive anti-LGBT attitudes displayed in this thread from the poster you quoted, as well as others like Touma55 and FunkyDude88 comes from either a severe bad faith reading, ignorance of the fact that LGBT people exist in Japan (I guess all of those manga and anime, two of their favorite media, about LGBT people are just pandering to Westerners, including those that have never been licensed?), or histrionic reactionaries trying to dismiss this. Perhaps it's a combination thereof, and the idea that LGBT people like myself and others exist throughout the world, including Japan, and history is an affront to their sensibilities.

This seems like a bad faith reading of your own. I don't see anyone saying trans people don't exist in Japan. But I have seen multiple people say that it's a very small minority and is not a group that widely gets accepted in the country at large like in America. Is that an untrue statement? There certainly is manga about trans issues but they are very rare. The strength of manga is you can make series about anything. But the kinds of series you're talking about are generally very niche and limited to web platforms and releases and not mainstream acceptance which is where most of the problem lies. Most of the discourse I see seems to stem from people attempting to claim non-trans characters as trans or non-binary. And I get it. When your options for trans representation are femboy characters like Astolfo and Hideri or a grotesque okama stereotype then it's clear which one people would want to claim represents them.. But a lot of the discourse is because people are attempting to claim a pre-existing franchise and hobby as their own. It's improtant for Astolfo to be trans because Astolfo is a popular character and they hope that means they would be acceptanced in turn if they claim they are like him. And people are pushing back against that kind of appropriation.

Cardcaptor Takato wrote:

Can ANN not do something about the transphobia in these kind of threads?

I'm fourthing this. I remember a whole firestorm about something I said about piracy laws in Japan, and the cleanup after that. And now there's Transphobia (and general ignorance regarding Japan as an actual, breathing country), and nothing is done.

Jessica Hart wrote:

I can see why the game flopped now.

FunkyDude88 wrote:

Why is it always the the people in any given industry with the least amount of success who have the biggest mouths and preach the most? Trying to prove something, I guess? There should be a term for creators who spend more time on Twitter "dunking" on critics than actually doing work. The people who get more likes on a hot take tweet than they got sales for their work. Gail Simone Syndrome, perhaps?

To Hell with this. Y'all just bitter Japan isn't the "pristine" traditional, "untouched" ethnostate you which it were. They have a term in Japan: X-Gender. It means Non-Binary. Read "Love Me for Who I Am" (Fukakai na Boku no Subete o), God damn it.

vampiyan wrote:

For a topic that isn't important in Japan I can see why it's not really talked about outside that specific English speaking fandom niche which cares about that sort of thing.

For a topic "not important for Japan"; it seems weird that the main Opposition Party, the CDPJ, affirms itself as pro-LGBT, that Tokyo's Governor, Yuriko Koike, affirms herself as Pro-LGBT, and that Major factions of the LDP affirm themselves as Anti-LGBT.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/06/15/tokyo-same-sex-japan-lgbtq/

Bonham wrote:

(I guess all of those manga and anime, two of their favorite media, about LGBT people are just pandering to Westerners, including those that have never been licensed?

Statements like these come off like when people try to say comics were always woke and then point to a picture of Captain America punching a yellow skinned, slanted eye, ricepatty hat wearing, bucktoothed Japanese soldier while yelling out racial slurs. It's not the best kind to make without understanding the context. Most of the yaoi and yuri content in anime and manga are not liked by the progressive crowd due to the way it's mainly aimed at straight people looking to get their rocks off. Even the biggest homophobes are fine with gay content as long as it's sexually enticing.

Hellsoldier wrote:

To Hell with this. Y'all just bitter Japan isn't the "pristine" traditional, "untouched" ethnostate you which it were. They have a term in Japan: X-Gender. It means Non-Binary. Read "Love Me for Who I Am" (Fukakai na Boku no Subete o), God damn it.

I've never heard of that series. Is it popular? Their posts were about how this content isn't popular, not that it doesn't exist. I can't find any sales numbers for the series though. It seems fairly niche from what I've seen. The art is cute at least so most people probably won't have an issue if they're into femboys or crossdressing stuff.

AmpersandsUnited wrote:

[

It seems like a game Sony fans would be more interested in than Nintendo fans. Switch gamers supported Omega Labyrinth Life instead. I watched a streamer play the first game and it was okay. The second game sounds absolutely dreadful and it appears Uchikoshi listened to the worst parts of the fandom though. If that's the lot he wants to throw his chips in with then that's his choice. Hopefully it works out better for him than others who have tried.

Guess not all visual novel style games are ideal for the switch.

Hellsoldier wrote:

For a topic "not important for Japan"; it seems weird that the main Opposition Party, the CDPJ, affirms itself as pro-LGBT, that Tokyo's Governor, Yuriko Koike, affirms herself as Pro-LGBT, and that Major factions of the LDP affirm themselves as Anti-LGBT.

I mean in media. There's no real fandom in Japan where the only reason people buy game because of its politics and they think it will make conservatives angry or something. Or a creator who blames trolls when something sold poorly. You know, culture war nonsense. I'm just pointing out the only time I ever see the game get talked about is those few screencaps, and making those kinds of statements are not effective marketing in Japan like they might be in the west so the game has to sell on it's own merits rather than fake outrage. And going of its sales the word-of-mouth praise for the game itself must not have been great and only found notoritiety due to arguments in the west.

I'm amazed at how well Uchikoshi manages to respond with patience and love toward people who hate and demean him for having the gall to just... say that a character is non-binary. The level of mental gymnastics some people go through to disbelieve that a Japanese author could honestly support LGBTQ+ people is astounding.

To be pedantic, though, Uchikoshi has gone on record as saying that if the game doesn't state a character's gender identity or sexuality, you can imagine it as however you like. There are several characters in both the Zero Escape and AI series that are widely considered by the fandom at large to be LGBTQ based on their actions or behaviors in the stories, which often fall in line with standard queer-coded stereotypes that Uchikoshi is undoubtedly aware of.

And all that aside, whether a game explicitly shows off queer relationships or not is much less important than whether a real person who has a significant audience expresses support for them.

Touma55 wrote:

Did you seriously just call me anti-LGBT? And wtf do you mean by casual orientalism? I am a part of the LGBTQ+ community as well and I thought I made that clear in my posts. Also where did I say LGBTQ+ people don't exist in Japan? I said we are treated poorly here by a large number of the population not that we didn't exist. Sorry I don't think the exact same way as you do, but In no way does that make me anti-LGBT. Can you explain how I was anti-LGBT in any way?

I apologize for not being clearer in that I viewed your reaction in just as bad faith while the rest are anti-LGBT or a combination thereof. But assuming that Uchikoshi is just doing this for attention, to "pander" to people, and has included such content in his games, is such a deeply cynical reading of his character. The LGBT community isn't treated as they should in Japan, but that hostility is not foreign to any parts of the world. Japan is not uniquely more hateful or discriminatory than many Western countries towards such people. I understand that you have apparently faced poor treatment by many there, but that's the case here in the U.S. and so many places elsewhere.

Your assumptions that Uchikoshi could very well be insincere and pandering is genuinely bad faith. Would you say the same of Yoko Taro and the LGBT (and intersex) characters in his games? The late Satoshi Kon with Tokyo Godfather? Takako Shimamura? Kunihiko Ikuhara?

chudmaru wrote:

This seems like a bad faith reading of your own. I don't see anyone saying trans people don't exist in Japan. But I have seen multiple people say that it's a very small minority and is not a group that widely gets accepted in the country at large like in America. Is that an untrue statement?

Exaggeration for effect. Even the most hardcore of authoritarians would acknowledge that there are queer people in Japan. Would you think that I believe that they only think cishet folks live there, rather than that there is a reactionary bent from certain posters on here (and elsewhere) at the mere mention of positive support and visibility of LGBT people (see two posts above for a glib reference to "culture war nonsense," or to the idea that there's a fandom in the West devoted to buying games in thinking it will make conservatives angry)

Quote:

There certainly is manga about trans issues but they are very rare. The strength of manga is you can make series about anything. But the kinds of series you're talking about are generally very niche and limited to web platforms and releases and not mainstream acceptance which is where most of the problem lies. Most of the discourse I see seems to stem from people attempting to claim non-trans characters as trans or non-binary.

I don't follow that type of discourse, but the problem that I've routinely seen surface in spaces devoted to nerd media is a denial of the possibility that there is acceptance and acknowledgment of LGBT people in media. Is it as apparent in the mainstream or less popular but still-beloved media as it is in the United States? I don't think so myself. But that doesn't mean it's not present. You have it visible in various games, manga, and anime. Some female idols themselves are openly queer, expressing preference toward or even having a dating history with other girls. That's a trend that's clearly different than what things were like years ago, just as the increased LGBT visibility elsewhere in Western media has become more commonplace in the past few years compared to a decade ago and longer.

And honestly, if we're going to point to it being "mainstream enough," the most visible form of mass entertainment (say, movies in the MCU) are tepid at best in their visibility of it. How big of a chunk of truly focused LGBT representation in mainstream U.S. media is there that isn't easily sidelined or ignored?

Los Nido wrote:

Statements like these come off like when people try to say comics were always woke and then point to a picture of Captain America punching a yellow skinned, slanted eye, ricepatty hat wearing, bucktoothed Japanese soldier while yelling out racial slurs. It's not the best kind to make without understanding the context. Most of the yaoi and yuri content in anime and manga are not liked by the progressive crowd due to the way it's mainly aimed at straight people looking to get their rocks off. Even the biggest homophobes are fine with gay content as long as it's sexually enticing.

Is there a reason why you're falsely assuming I had fetishistic yaoi and yuri in mind when I said that?

Touma55 wrote:

Yeah 2 numbers in my name because the regular name was taken makes everything I say bullshit yeah gtfo. And when did I say I know all of the intricacies of Japanese culture? All I said was that people in the LGBTQ+ community are treated poorly here and they are. I have been and many of my friends have been as well. Whether that be by co-workers, friends, or even family. One of my best friends was beaten by her parents when she came out. And once again you are putting words in my mouth. When did I try to " correct " the way he was acting? You are literally just spouting bullshit. And I will say it again since you really REALLY don't seem to get it. I said I was SKEPTICAL I never said I was sure holy shit how do you not get it? I also gave my reasons for being skeptical which you to seem to ignore. Obviously I have nothing concrete because if I did I wouldn't be skeptical I would just being saying that he is bullshitting for money for sure. And wow if even skepticism of him is making you furious you must be one hell of a super fan.

Which doesn't give you grounds to generalize an entire group of people, however bad your own experience unfortunately may have been with a select few. But when your "skepticism" aligns with the anti-LGBTQ rhetoric espoused by literal nazis complaining about Uchikoshi on twitter, you should probably take some time for self-reflection on how productive this brand of skepticism directed at those such as Uchikoshi is.

vampiyan wrote:

It seems like that's the only reason people seem to care about the game.

Literally the only reason anyone thinks this is because they are distant to and ignorant of the community and fandom, and they have not actually interacted with them in any way aside from maybe this *one* point. So yeah, of course you would think it's the "only reason people care", because it's the only reason *you* care about it. It's the end result of staying in your own, exclusive little bubble except when getting angry on twitter.

Bonham wrote:

Touma55 wrote:

Did you seriously just call me anti-LGBT? And wtf do you mean by casual orientalism? I am a part of the LGBTQ+ community as well and I thought I made that clear in my posts. Also where did I say LGBTQ+ people don't exist in Japan? I said we are treated poorly here by a large number of the population not that we didn't exist. Sorry I don't think the exact same way as you do, but In no way does that make me anti-LGBT. Can you explain how I was anti-LGBT in any way?

I apologize for not being clearer in that I viewed your reaction in just as bad faith while the rest are anti-LGBT or a combination thereof. But assuming that Uchikoshi is just doing this for attention, to "pander" to people, and has included such content in his games, is such a deeply cynical reading of his character. The LGBT community isn't treated as they should in Japan, but that hostility is not foreign to any parts of the world. Japan is not uniquely more hateful or discriminatory than many Western countries towards such people. I understand that you have apparently faced poor treatment by many there, but that's the case here in the U.S. and so many places elsewhere.

Your assumptions that Uchikoshi could very well be insincere and pandering is genuinely bad faith. Would you say the same of Yoko Taro and the LGBT (and intersex) characters in his games? The late Satoshi Kon with Tokyo Godfather? Takako Shimamura? Kunihiko Ikuhara?

No I would not say the same for them. I am not too familiar with Yoko Taro so I wont speak about him but from what I know the other 3 are all popular here in Japan more so than Uchikoshi at least. His unpopularity in Japan and popularity in the west is a large part of why I am skeptical. The LGBTQ+ stuff feels like it could be a way to get attention from the community in the west where it is much more accepted and not something genuine and based on what I have seen it has definitely got him some attention. And I will say this again im not saying that is the case im just saying im skeptical and I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

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