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Malevolent Spirits: Mononogatari (TV) (w/ index).


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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 23668
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:11 am Reply with quote
Awesome episode and it raised two questions for me. 1) What exactly is the deal with Botan (in terms of her power) and 2) why has Kunato REALLY been sent to her household to live? The original rationale that Zohei wanted to blunt his bloodthirsty attitude towards tsukumogami is starting to seem like it's not the only reason and maybe not even the primary one. I say that because we now know that Kunato's presence in Botan's household is threatening a carefully maintained nonaggression pact and that Zohei and Botan's tsukumogami were perfectly aware of this before he was sent. So why? What reason justifies taking this risky step? Stay tuned!

Another highlight for me was watching Yu practise what she was going to say to Kunato regarding cleaning up his talisman mess once she got him on the phone. This is great character work. It was endearingly humorous to see that she felt the need to do a run through to make sure she got her tone and message exactly right. I like all of Botan's Six, but I think Yu might be my favourite.
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b-dragon



Joined: 21 Apr 2021
Posts: 430
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:58 pm Reply with quote
I continue to be more and more glad I kept the show on my watchlist. Its quickly become one of my favorites each week.

I'm glad we're getting in to in-setting politics and factions. And really glad we're finally digging into Botan. She's been defined mostly by how characters react to her so far, so it will be nice to figure out who/what she actually is- and why Hyoma was sent there.

This is how you do character writing, honestly. Not only do you have Yu practicing her speech, but you have Hyoma's behavior. The character who was almost defined by his hatred towards tsukumogami with little else in his world, is now obsessively trying to put up wards to protect someone else. And when informed that Kushige- one of those previously maligned tsukumogami- already put up a barrier, his reaction isn't distrustful. Its just "Oh. Why didn't you say so? I'll go take them down." The narrative trusts viewers to notice the change. Its nice.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 1:13 pm Reply with quote
@ b-dragon: what you say about Hyoma is true, but it's also true that he retains a fair amount of his initial hostility/distrust towards tsukumogami as evidenced by his reaction to Aogi and Ushiki. Granted, the two came on strong, so Hyoma's reaction - especially considering the recent attack on Botan - was by no means out of whack, but it still took Aogi a fair amount of effort to make him understand that he was actually just there to talk. And frankly, this evidence of Hyoma's continuing aggro with tsukumogami is realistic. If he was suddenly completely reasonable, I would consider that too abrupt a change in attitude.
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 15433
Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:34 am Reply with quote
Maybe I have had a really weird reaction to this series, but I have actually been really unconvinced by Hyouma's softening towards tsukumogami, because pretty much every interaction with them has been generally hostile. There continues to be wondering ones who hold little regard for human life, there are special cases that apparently can just attack a human and get away with it, the ones supposedly pass welfare checks will turn violent on a dime, and even the supposed good guys showed little restraint in starting fights with him.

Sure those "good guys" are kind and care about Botan, but as far as we and he know, they only have as much empathy as what effects them, which might include one special case with one human that they maybe are under some sort contract or only care because she is part of their family. Their general interactions Hyouma have felt like they are either reckless in ways that can often harm him, to keeping a general hostility that looks like there is more expected of him to be nice than them.

In the first episode it was made pretty clear that they really should not have started that fight with him, and at least one person should have tried to stop it. And almost every fight he has been in since, there has been some aspect that they were negligent in protecting him, or they otherwise are a reason he got attacked. I really don't understand how he is supposed to have thought better of them, outside of his grandfather saying he would have to do what is necessary to stay to not lose his whole purpose in life. Which itself looks pretty messed up. He lost his siblings to a monster, has been told that they hold these monsters responsible, but now some of these monsters just get to attack with no accountability.
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Edjwald



Joined: 03 Aug 2017
Posts: 1022
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:53 am Reply with quote
Dusky - do you mean you don't see signs that his no-holds-barred, incapable-of-making-distinctions hostility is being chipped away at, or that you don't think it's realistic.

When he didn't kill the spirit that attacked...Suzuri? (I'm bad at names) it was because he saw her expression and felt a moment of empathy. That wouldn't have been possible if he hadn't at least begun to consider whether or not Tsukumogami were capable of shades of grey. When he didn't respond to Yu's attempts to start a brawl, it was because he realized that he and she both had a dark side that would not respond well...it wouldn't be a releasing tension kind of a fight. It would be pouring gas on a fire. Stuff like that are signs that he's slowly changing.

If you mean that it's not realistic, the show seems to be asking us to accept that he's responding intuitively because the bond between Botan and her spirits is real and he senses that. He said as much when he was facing Yu. It's not a 1+1=2 logic kind of thing. Maybe it is their nature or their calling or whatever, but he believes that the spirits really care about Botan and for her. And I think he's also attracted to Botan too, which can cause a young teenaged male to open up or blunder in to situations they never would have considered before.

That said, it's not like he's not still full of hate and anger. The way he reacted to the two security/thugs/intelligentsia tsukumogomi wasn't exactly calm and rational.
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 15433
Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:55 am Reply with quote
I find it unrealistic, at least not in a way that would be satisfying for him apparently being someone who was apparently overly aggressive in not counting on tsukumogami being able to act well in human society. Despite his supposed journey, he has only seen them generally only act out of selfishness, and only care about humans so muc as Botan as a special case.

He said that he thought that her bond with them is real, but what does that mean that the bond means that they would pick a fight with a random human for doing what they perceive as just a mere insult of her? I would have thought that the series would have more convincing parts for him to see them as more empathetic beings to humans in general. But instead it has felt almost like they have done more to have used some sort of comic relief out of him being pushed into danger from them forgetting to protect him from the exact kind of monsters that he thinks they are. Or the times they have even gotten in his way, by starting a fight, putting the blame for that fight onto him, restraining him, and getting in his way of stopping those who attack humans.

I get that the story is supposed to go a certain way, but it is like they forgot to factor in that he is supposed to be convinced that they are not dangerous. Sure, Botan seems to have that exact kind of empathy to others, but it kind of makes it feel like they are only good because the person that they are tied to happens to be good. Would they even care for humans if Botan was removed from the picture?

In way it just reflects this random thought that they are like guns, weapons that could easily hurt humans when just allowed to exist freely through society. But then we are being led to believe that it is fine because we see one person, like a good guy with a gun, and because of that one good person who theoretically can control that gun, they should all be allowed to go free. Even though they keep easily hurting humans. If anything maybe he should be suspicious of her for her connection with them?

At least that is my perception looking through what his eyes should be. Even though I could consider other parallels to things like immigrants and other kinds of racism. I get where it is supposed to go. I just think it is weird that it has looked like he has had to put in all that effort, and most of the more humanising elements have been things like the secretly discussing together that he would not have seen. That entire scene bit where two of them were trying to show that they are more human, kind of fell apart when the one they were checking up on just decided to attack, and I think most he has since run into generally attack him too.

It looks like this hasn't bothered most, but to me it has kind of felt like they have gone too far the other way from the type of shows where characters refuse to evidence that things are more complicated than they might have thought.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:16 am Reply with quote
Yeah, DP, it sounds like you are imposing your own viewpoint on how Kunato should be feeling. For example, you seem to think that for Kunato's attitude towards tsukumogami to soften in a logical way, he should see evidence that the 6 show good intent to more humans than just Botan. That's by no means an unreasonable stance to take, but I don't feel it's necessary. Remember, he came into that household convinced that ALL tsukumogami were implacably hostile to ALL humans and had to be destroyed. So seeing the six protect and be concerned about even one human is still a pretty big deal, imo.

For me, what will show that Kunato has really changed is if we ever see him in an encounter with a tsukumogami he's never come across before, that tsukumogami is acting in a threatening way yet despite that, Kunato makes an effort to try and reason with it first before going into attack mode. If we ever see that, I think that would be convincing evidence the mission to send him to Botan has succeeded. However, for that to ring true, we will have to see more instances of his viewpoint changing, which I believe we will.
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yuna49



Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 3804
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:18 am Reply with quote
I enjoy this show more and more. I was intrigued by the concept of evil tsukumogami, since most of my encounters with them in anime depict them as benevolent. Hyouma could have a been a boring protagonist consumed only by revenge. spoiler[(I had the same issue with Thorfinn in Vinland Saga after a while.)] Instead he shows some capacity for growth and seems genuinely attracted to Botan. I look forward to seeing her back story in the next episode.
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Edjwald



Joined: 03 Aug 2017
Posts: 1022
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:35 pm Reply with quote
Dusky -

If you like the show but find that one little detail holding you back or annoying you, I don't mind trying to help you deal with it.

But if you don't like the show, and that aspect is just one symptom, then I don't want to try to browbeat you or anything. A lot of times, the difference in interpretation comes from instinctive like or dislike. Sort of like when you start dating someone you're besotted with, and all of their little flaws seem like charming quirks. At the end of the same relationship, when you're ready to leave, those same little flaws seem like the most annoying thing in the world.

Anyway,

DuskyPredator wrote:
In the first episode it was made pretty clear that they really should not have started that fight with him, and at least one person should have tried to stop it.

Personally, I didn't really feel like they were the ones who started it. Hyoma was talking some serious trash on their home territory. Nagi took him on one on one by mutual consent. When Haori yelled to jump on both of them to stop the fight, they all instinctively charged at Hyoma thinking someone else would take Nagi. They could have killed him right there while he was helpless. Instead they acted sheepish and apologized. He probably thought they were full of it, but Hyoma is also an almost pathologically honest person, even with himself. At the very least, He must have known they could have done worse.

I also don't think it's an accident that the two most aggressive spirits - the ones who should be triggering Hyoma's instincts - are actually the two he seems to interact with best. He and Nagi communicate the most naturally, and Hyoma seems to understand where Yu is coming from because he's got similar issues. But Nagi and Yu have a sense of honor within their anger, and personally, I think Hyoma recognizes that on some level because he's the same.

But then again, I'm crushing on this show <g>. Aesthetically speaking I mean.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:53 pm Reply with quote
@ Edjwald - you don't want to browbeat...? Man, you are way more civilized than I am. Never mind brow beat, I'm ready to curb stomp anyone who has the temerity not to adore this show as much as I do! Ha, ha, I kid, I kid!

...

Kind of.
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 15433
Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:01 am Reply with quote
Edjwald wrote:
Personally, I didn't really feel like they were the ones who started it. Hyoma was talking some serious trash on their home territory. Nagi took him on one on one by mutual consent. When Haori yelled to jump on both of them to stop the fight, they all instinctively charged at Hyoma thinking someone else would take Nagi. They could have killed him right there while he was helpless. Instead they acted sheepish and apologized. He probably thought they were full of it, but Hyoma is also an almost pathologically honest person, even with himself. At the very least, He must have known they could have done worse.

I kind of just thought he had all the reasons to trash talk them, because as far as we saw from his perspective, he would consider them dangerous monsters with that will just attack humans, and perhaps in are only holding back because they have a master they must obey. I was also thinking that their instinctive gang up on him would also betray their claim that one of them would go after their own, so even if it was just a by chance outcome, it should have been up to them to show that they would have his back too at some point. But it is such that none of the situations have had that.

They have always gotten to a situation later than they should have or something similar. It has kind of felt odd that he as the one with the trauma has had to do all the legwork at being convinced. That it has been easier than it should have to convince him.

Edjwald wrote:
I also don't think it's an accident that the two most aggressive spirits - the ones who should be triggering Hyoma's instincts - are actually the two he seems to interact with best. He and Nagi communicate the most naturally, and Hyoma seems to understand where Yu is coming from because he's got similar issues. But Nagi and Yu have a sense of honor within their anger, and personally, I think Hyoma recognizes that on some level because he's the same.

I agree that it is okay that he has more of a better interaction with being the ones closer to his mind as combat focused, is generally okay. But unless I am missing something, one was the tsukumogami that most easiest gave into his taunts that they are just dangerous, and the other pretty essentially fit his idea of them being violence seeker who might not care so much about hurting someone in a fight. I could see him having a respect of them as fighters, but unless I am missing something, they should also be the two that he should logically be the most ready if the situation looks it to be ready to put down if he thinks that they might be a danger to humans.

I do understand where the story is meant to be going, and even what is meant to be thought, but it just kind of feels like we have missed the bit where he would see that they would have his or another human's back (not their master) beyond something as tenuous as their master's request. The show started off really strong in seeing his siblings being killed, and we were shown that he is meant to have no mercy for them, but he has kind of just adopted it because he has it threatened on him to have to stay there, and he has seen a few that don't go out of their way to attack humans and like one particular special human.

The only other way I could think of that they could have wrote things is maybe that humans can be just as bad as them, and maybe unlike him who lost his family to a tsukumogami, she lost her family to other humans. So maybe her protectors would be worried to protect her from violent humans because of that, but so far all aggressors have been tsukumogami.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:01 pm Reply with quote
Episode 6

So now we know Botan's deal. There's a slumbering marebito inside of her of unknown power but that could potentially bestow quite the blessing to a human or tsukumogami. Making Botan quite the catch, of course.

By the way, do we know which items of the bridal trousseau all of the six are? Yu is obviously a hairpin and her ability is to bind people/tsukumogami's up in one of her oversized hairpins. Going by both the OP and the ED, the other five items of the bridal trousseau are (I think):

a sword (kind of odd gift for a bride, but whatevs)
a tied up box containing I know not what... paper, perhaps?
an ink set
a mirror
a white bridal garment

Bad Memory Man asks... have we seen (other than Yu, of couse) which of the six fits with which item and what their power is? Sure, I could go back and rewatch the first few episodes, but it's more fun to ask the class. By the way, I'm only interested in information that has been divulged by the anime so far. For anybody who knows these answers from the source material and which hasn't been featured in the anime yet, I don't want to know.
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Edjwald



Joined: 03 Aug 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 7:29 pm Reply with quote
The short female (Kagami?) created a glowing circle in episode 2, and when the spirit that they were interviewing gazed into it, Kagami seemed to be able to peer into her memories. Presumably she's the mirror.

The wannabe lady killer (Suzuri?) was able to reassemble himself after being torn into bits. The pieces were dark and I thought they were shadows the first time I saw it, but based on your post, he's probably the inky guy.

I guess that would make Haori and mohawk dude the bridal garment and the box. If they've demonstrated any unique powers, I don't have a clear memory of them.

Still haven't seen an episode of this show where I wasn't all in.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 8:12 pm Reply with quote
Ah, thanks for helping an old man out, Edjwald. Yes, Kagami definitely sounds like the mirror. I think the "wannabe lady killer" is Nagi and yes he seems a good candidate for the ink set. (Suzuri is the young chap who is usually paired with Kagami.) If I'm right about the sword being part of the trousseau (and I'm far from certain of that) then it seems the older bearded guy, Kushige, might be it given his ability to put up a barrier around the Botan residence. (Barrier = protection = sword?) I'm guessing that Haori (the bespeckaled blonde) is the white garment... since haori in Japanese is a traditional jacket.

Doh. Yes, a check reveals that Kagami means mirror,

Suzuri is a type of Japanese writing box (so ink guy would be correct)

Kushige means box which makes his barrier power make sense since it is basically a box.

Yu means a number of things, including excellence and superiority. That fits.

Nagi means calm or lull which given Nagi's character is ironic.

I dare not wikipedia the show because bitter experience has shown me you tend to learn things you don't want to know when you go there to learn things you do want to know.
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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 10:25 pm Reply with quote
#6

The episode with the big reveal from the Six to Hyouma was important, but this was another one I really had to see animated since it is HUGE as far as the setting is concerned. Also, the number of comic moments in this one episode is on par with the big reveal. If the animators had botched it, the core audience would have taken to this badly since this is another of the seminal moments in the early volumes.

Yes, Haori looks gorgeous when she makes the effort. The spectacles are for show (she's not human and has perfect eyesight) so having multiples (which need to be cheap if she's breaking them so often) isn't out of the question. Since Hyouma never dated anyone in his life, he's just had his first one with a Tsukumogami. I'll let the audience think about that for a moment and its implications (mostly comic).

Besides a lot of comedy in this episode (the palm strike, Botan's zombie mode, the date stalking, the post-Botan accidental meeting reactions etc.), with an episode title like Botan there's a lot riding on the episode to explain exactly why the Tsukumogami community have so many eyes on her literally all the time. Haori does the job, so any lingering doubts Hyouma might have had about her residency with her surrogate family are well and truly dispelled by the end of this episode. He still has zero romantic notions about being with her (since he's dense), but he's not going to give up on protecting civilians from predatory Tsukumogami as that's his job description and life's work. Whether anything will progress from there is for viewers to find out.

As for the identity of the Six which has been speculated upon on this thread, first look at the screenshot with Botan surrounded by the Trousseau. Then look at their names. I'll leave the rest in spoilers below:

spoiler[Haori = 羽織, the Japanese Kimono jacket. She's seen wearing it in the OP animation, but not always in the episodes. As for her powers, not revealed yet so I'm leaving it as a surprise for uninitiated viewers.

Kushige = 匣, the box for all of the presents. The Kanji for his name is an alternative from the more conventional 箱, and Haori has already stated explicitly what his powers relate to. Won't really see him in action since his powers are engaged in enclosing the mansion with his powers.

Nagi = 薙 = The Katana. Obvious from his powers what he is. For whatever reason, users relying on google translate think he's "calm" which is completely wrong. The reason why his name is like that is because 薙ぎ is the verb meaning horizontal swing with a sword. One of the two who doesn't use the vessel's name directly, since no one in his right mind calls himself Katana. Nagi on the other hand is a valid Japanese first name, and one of the verbs fits his vessel to a T.
]


spoiler[Yuu = 結 = Japanese hairpin (簪). Again we've seen her powers in action more than once. As to why she's picked that name, the verb 結う means to bind, especially for hair. She's a Japanese hairpin, should be self-explanatory. The other who didn't pick her vessel as the name as-is, most likely because no one calls them Kanzashi and Yuu or Yui is a very common Japanese first name.

Suzuri = 硯 = Japanese inkpot/inkwell. We've seen his powers in episode two when he claims he can't be killed so easily. Because he is a vessel which holds ink, he can deploy the characteristics of ink as his supernatural skill set. Besides turning into ink, he can also immobilise enemies by covering them in a thick stream of it (episode 3).

Kagami = 鏡 = Mirror. Specifically the mirror used in Shinto weddings. Episode two deliberately spelled out what her powers are, since she's also inherited the Chinese legendary truth-telling mirror (照魔鏡) ability to look into an object or person's past. Besides this, she's also useful in combat in creating decoys through reflections.]


spoiler[One can extend the metaphor with the Tsukumogami adopting names which reflect the objects they inhabit to some degree or another. For example:

Ougi = 扇 = Japanese war fan. He's an iron fan used by Japanese Generals in the Warring States period, so yes he can fold himself like that as that's what he is. The object he inhabits is 鉄扇, so just the second character is used for his chosen name.

Uchiki = 袿 = 12-layered robe. His name makes sense in Japanese, since the noun it reflects is an undergarment worn by Japanese nobles during the Heian period. It's not underwear, but an extra layer of clothing worn immediately underneath the outermost layer. Since Uchiki embodies his powers in being multi-layered like a Russian nesting doll, it makes sense for such a name choice.

Those who are already familiar with the series can find more connections as more of the Tsukumogami are introduced, just check the credits for their names. For everyone else just watching this series, look it up if you're interested but don't kill yourself over it. Certainly do not leave incorrect information when the credits have everyone's name and Google Translate is only used for the Romanization.]


[EDIT: Rearranged placement of spoiler tags for easier reading. -TK]


Last edited by Harleyquin on Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:09 am; edited 2 times in total
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