Forum - View topicNEWS: New Rurouni Kenshin TV Anime's Visual Reveals July Premiere
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Errinundra
Moderator
 Posts: 6525 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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Posts removed. The discussion is an important one, so don't make your comments personal.
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Kuzu
Posts: 144 |
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It took all of one page for the inevitable....
This is exactly I choose to not even participate in these public debates, because it always comes down to judging people's moral character over things they have no control and making huge leaps in logic. People are more within their right to no longer engage with a product if they don't agree with the morals of their creators. That however does not give you the right to talk down to people who don't share that mindset and vice versa. Just because I enjoy a work by someone considered "problematic" doesn't mean that I agree with or condone their actions and its frustrating when people can't see that. And I get that it's a very touchy subject, but if it causes such irrational and aggressive then maybe it's a subject you shouldn't be engaging with it to begin with. |
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Gem-Bug
 Posts: 1207 |
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"Just because I enjoy a work by someone "charged with possessing child pornography" doesn't mean that I agree with or condone their actions and its frustrating when people can't see that."
There's really no way to separate the art from the artist when your monetary support goes to the abuse of children. Guy had like 100 DVDs and only paid a pretty small fine, which obviously didn't help any of the victims in any way(and how could it?). He didn't receive any kind of therapy as far as I'm aware, so he's probably still finding a way to consume this material. The way fans kick and scream and make excuses to justify this is unbelievable. |
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NeverConvex
 Subscriber Posts: 2302 |
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I suspect part of the reason many people find it easy to justify consuming more Kenshin is that any single individual person's contribution to Watsuki's wealth is incredibly tiny, and feels really abstract. It's a bit like the paradox of voting, at a high level; a person thinking about only their own actions might reasonably conclude that it doesn't really matter if they stream a season of his new show (it's not even like they're paying for that show specifically!), or if they buy new Kenshin merch and he gets a cut of the profits from or something. Of course, also like the paradox of voting, when a huge number of people reason in that way, it suddenly does matter, and enables his predatory behavior, predictably and on a large scale.
Not the only reason, of course; e.g., several people have noted there's a kind of exhaustion with trying to carefully police all of the different ways our expenditures can cause harm. I personally think Watsuki's case is clear-cut and egregious enough that it rises well above the threshold where I feel like I need to pay attention, but not a surprise given this additional degree of freedom that many people conclude otherwise. And, that folks don't like feeling judged, or having their choices scrutinized/questioned. I'm kind of unsympathetic there, though; the only way to fully avoid that would be to never have any discussions of ethics whatsoever, which is silly. There're certainly forms of self-righteousness I think are over-the-top, but talking about whether it's bad to support a guy we know bought tons of child pornography doesn't feel like a very ambiguous example. |
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a_Bear_in_Bearcave
Posts: 511 Location: Poland |
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Most of those question are already answered by modern criminal system. Rowling isn't even a criminal in the first place so I'm not sure how she fits here, criminals have full legal right just like very other citizen, so they deserve full compensation for their work, the money they get is for them only to decide how to spend - excluding of course lawfully sentenced fines and settlements, to which money they have no right to do anything else than to give it to whom court ordered them to - all of this is result of modern law that rightfully recognized the criminals rights are same as any other citizen. Law precisely decides how you can become criminal by association, and paying someone in a transaction that is fully legal for work that is also fully legal can't be a crime. Boycott can only be seen as a attempt to add social punishment for someone who you think deserves heavier/any punishment than what they received, or can't be punished legally but can be hit by boycott, or attempt to influence the capitalist marketplace. In modern country everyone deserves to live, so obviously buying food is right of everyone, the issue most people may have is that if you don't boycott celebrities who sinned, they can get away mostly scot-free, at least according to boycotters, which is against most people's inner moral system.That's why for some of them, if the sinner honestly regrets and tries to make amends through charities and such, it's no longer problem that need correction due to inadequate justice. |
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Kuzu
Posts: 144 |
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This is exactly what I'm referring to. You're making it seem like that I am walking directly up to the man himself and personally giving him money and telling him "go out and do more crimes man". Fact is, he would be making money regardless because he's a famous public figure in the industry whether I'm buying his manga or not. The $7 or $8 I buy a manga with probably isn't going to significantly impact his livelihood. I'd understand this mindset if people were actively justifying his crimes, which I am not for record. I just want to enjoy a series I like and I can't even do that if people are going to constantly judge me like I'm friends with the man. When it comes to figures like Eichiro Oda, who are publicly endorsing him, I get but there's a personal relationship there too. |
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whiskeyii
 Posts: 2245 |
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I mean...there are ways to avoid giving monetary support and still watch the show. : x
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NeverConvex
Subscriber Posts: 2302 |
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Huh. Y'know -- this may actually be one of the few cases I can think of where pirating seems, uh, almost like an ethically reasonable option? Still kinda feels distasteful on a personal level, I guess, but does remove what seems like the principal ethical problem here..
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Minos_Kurumada
Posts: 1008 |
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If you pirate the show you will increase it's popularity and rise the odds of other people becoming fans and buying the merch. Sorry, there is no scape, you eithter ignore the show all together, like Resetera did with that Harry Potter game, or you help to increase it's popularity. |
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lossthief
ANN Reviewer
 Posts: 1393 |
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As far as the idea of pirating goes, what I don't get is how anyone who cares enough to purposefully not contribute money to Watsuki would be able to enjoy watching the show anyway.
Like yeah, if you're somebody who just could not care less about Watsuki being a convicted pedophile, and all you care about is your anime, then I get it. But if somebody is, quite reasonably, unwilling to financially support Watsuki by watching it legally, I have to imagine it'll be difficult to get through an episode. I can say personally that just thinking about the series - which I loved for a long, long time before Watsuki's arrest - leaves me pretty upset because it's forever tied to him. I can only think that it would be even harder to sit down and watch an episode, just to be reminded for 22 minutes about what a piece of garbage the guy is and how easily he was let back into the industry. Doesn't really sound like fun viewing, to me. |
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harminia
 Posts: 2000 Location: australia |
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While I totally get this mindset, the thing is, if everyone thinks that, obviously nothing will change. It's like people saying "I didn't vote because it's not like my vote would've changed anything". Maybe it could've. Maybe if all the people who didn't vote because "why bother" had voted everything would change. Maybe if all the people who think "why bother" about Watsuki stopped giving money that goes towards him, his livelihood would be more significantly impacted. Idealistic, sure. But "why bother because I won't change anything" isn't a fact. |
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Fedora-san
 Posts: 464 |
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I don't think lumping all those people together is all that great because those are all very different instances. - Rowling and Mignogna are not criminals. Rowling never did or was accused of anything illegal, she just has opinions some people dislike. She really doesn't deserve to be on that list. Mignogna was also never actually charged with any crimes, he was accused by co-workers of making them uncomfortable and was fired. - Miller and Watsuki were charged with actual crimes. I don't know what's going on with Miller to be honest since I don't care about it but yeah, Hollywood just seems to be looking the other way as Hollywood traditionally does. Watsuki on the other hand got punished for his actions and went through the entire legal process and paid his debt to society. A lot of celebrities have criminal histories. Tim Allen, Robert Downy Jr, Tupac, Martha Stewart, Danny Trejo, Mike Tyson. Personally, if they actually get charged and punished for their crime, I don't really care. The whole point of the process is to rehabilitate people back into society, or at the very least, punish them for doing illegal things. Yeah, celebrities tend to get off easier compared to regular people, but that's just the way the world works. They all found work again after their punishment. No one cared Robert Downy Jr became the face of a Disney-Marvel cinematic universe despite being arrested in the past for drug trafficking and weapon charges. Mike Tyson got his own successful cartoon show despite being a convicted rapist. Snoop Dogg's arrest record is a mile long ranging from drugs, murder, and sexual assault, but he still got to do the Super Bowl half-time show last year. One doesn't have to personally support these people as that's a personal choice, but society as a whole seems content with letting the legal system deal with these things and not putting the expectation or burden on customers and consumers. |
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Krisqo
Posts: 2 |
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People get so bent up about the pennies in royalties they give to the creator and ignore the dozens of other people who put the time and effort into creating the anime/game. It's their job to make the product be the best it can be and deserve to reap the rewards of that effort.
So think about that before you decide to sail the seven seas or try and boycott. You are hurting many more innocent bystanders. I will watch the show because I love the setting and characters. I would by the entire Manga collection to replace my destroyed set from a flood if I had the money. Life is to short to spend every moment deciding on what hill I want to stand on this day. |
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Maidenoftheredhand
 Posts: 2633 |
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Innocent bystander, Shueshia and the production committees are not innocent either by supporting him. I understand there are some workers that probably had no choice on what project they worked for. But the people who actively pursued this project I don’t really care about them.
No your individual contributions are not what is making a difference but everyone who gives money to this product shows what he did didn’t matter. That they made the right decision to rehabilitate him but not let him pay any real cost for his crimes. People can try to brush aside the moral argument all they want. I don’t think people who watch Kenshin support child porn but it’s certainly not a deal breaker to them. And this isn’t about saying I enjoyed Kenshin in the past and I can’t stop enjoying it . That’s one thing. But to say well I am going to watch and support everything going forward that is something else entirely. |
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Gem-Bug
Posts: 1207 |
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He was accused of being a sex pest by multiple people, co-workers and fans(some underage) alike, yeah. He also wasn't fired from anything. I know it sounds more like he was wronged, but "choosing not to work with this person anymore" isn't the same as "terminated". The rest of your post is pretty much "other people do crimes and people don't mind, so I can support this pedophile". |
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