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NEWS: Adult Swim Announces Toonami Rewind Block With Sailor Moon, Dragon Ball Z Kai, Naruto Anime


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tygerchickchibi



Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Posts: 1468
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2024 12:36 pm Reply with quote
Cardcaptor Takato wrote:
TsarPlatinum wrote:


Because the DIC dub is more iconic and what most Sailor Moon fans in America know and prefer. I bet if this was Pokemon or Digimon or Yu-Gi-Oh or Ghost Stories y'all wouldn't be using the changes as a reason it should be forgotten.
Good thing no one was saying this.


My time to shine, haha

I still give credit to the DiC dub where it's due. It was the closest release to the original version when it was originally marketed as a completely different cartoon in the past. I think the dub fit very well for the audience it was cultivating, and while people still get mad about the "censorship", it's not like censoring anime was exclusive to the US. It's unfortunate, but that is generally the fact of the matter. Sailor Moon isn't anything special when it comes to that aspect of broadcasting, just like DBZ, Gundam, Tenchi Muyo, etc.

On a side note, I didn't like the Viz dub tbh, as one who was actually excited to see it. Not because of the voice cast, but I never really liked the script from the first few seasons, so I stopped watching the dub after R. I did see the movies via Viz and thought the script was a lot better, so I guess it depended on who was writing it. I find the dub cast to be more enjoyable in Crystal as well (with the exception of the movies -- the requirement for the cast to use honorifics made it hard to watch so I just went to the sub instead).

That said, I don't know how successful this block will be. I don't find it as an issue that the Viz dub is released, but unlike some shows, I feel like Sailor Moon has always been kind of an afterthought when it came to the Toonami block in its later years. Not just due to licensing issues, but the Viz dub has been out for years. Dragon Ball Z, Naruto/Boruto, and Gundam have had more exposure under Toonami than Sailor Moon. YashaHime was able to get a premiere on Toonami first -- Sailor Moon wasn't even on the radar.

Additionally, Sailor Moon is the oldest series on this block, and I think that it would have been better that it was added to the block in the earlier days of the show being re-licensed and having a home release. So I feel like it's still kind of gotten terrible treatment (under Toei) even when the reboot was released.

As some others have mentioned, most have seen it on streaming sites like Hulu, the reboot is in Netflix Jail (the movies), so not sure what else is the end goal here but to rely on "nostalgia" from growing up seeing it as a kid (if you grew up with the dub), or have access with the Japanese subtitles when Pioneer released them (or through fansubs).

It won't really be the same experience. Most Toonami shows have been super gritty, so I think Sailor Moon would stick out a bit, and I wonder if it will actually be uncut or still have some editing (like any nudity or transformation). I also think that it's a dated series, full stop. The "monster of the day" aspect was fun back when I was a kid, but I think even now, I prefer Crystal in some ways more than the 90's series itself (And I find the live action series to be 1000% better than Toei's adaptation).

So I hope that the show works out. It's fine that it's embraced under a new generation, but I'm feeling skeptical about how long it can survive on cable tv.


NJ_ wrote:

Regardless, it sounds like Takeuchi wants nothing to do with the old dub (source) and since everything involving Sailor Moon needs her approval, it's unfortunately never coming back legally.


I looked at both sources and I still don't actually see any real quote indicating that Takeuchi disliked the dub at all. I always found it strange that I would see this sentiment, but it mostly came through discussions/speculation. Additionally, I don't really understand why there would be any issue with the dub back then, considering that they allowed R, S, and SuperS to be licensed with most of the same legacy cast. It could've very much been changed back then too.

Anyway, allowing her to approve the dub cast doesn't seem to be out of place since it has happened historically with other anime projects. Additionally, a new Japanese VO cast was in the process for the reboot as well. With the exception of Mitsuishi Kotono, the original cast of the 90's anime were all replaced by younger actors. I think the idea was to get younger, fresh talent, and to give the original series a proper release. Also, to promote Sailor Moon Crystal later on, since most of this happened within the same year, if I'm not mistaken.

I will eat crow if there's a translation of her explicitly stating the re-cast was directly because "old dub bad", but nah. I think it was ultimately just business, with some strings being pulled to get to highest bidder and a new dub was going to happen regardless. I just don't believe that the DiC English dub specifically was this type of evil that had to be destroyed/forgotten.

I guess this is why this will only be aired once a week because it sounds rather experimental.
--

TLDR: I don't think Takeuchi "hated the original dub" as much as people say, and I'll die on that hill, lol. I do think adding Sailor Moon to Toonami now is surprising and should've happened years ago, but due to it being a 30 year old "magical girl" series, not sure how it will survive as it's not as action packed as it's other shows regardless of which dub was released (but I think the old dub is more "action" ish due to it's editing and music choices). Due to its limited programming block schedule it seems like it's a test to see if it will work.
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 4667
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2024 1:42 pm Reply with quote
YagamiBlackstone255 wrote:

Too bad because I WOULD be saying the Ghost Stories dub's changes are a reason it should be forgotten.

Say what you want about the Sailor Moon DiC dub at least the licensors didn't go "Oh this show flopped in Japan, which is a lie btw, We can do whatever we want with it!"

I find it hilarious that some people are still salty about that dub when pretty much no one in the English-speaking world would remember the existence of that silly little anime Scooby-Doo series if not for it. Meanwhile I thought it was one of the funniest damn things I've ever seen, my friends and I still regularly quote it to each other, and I've now bought the series on two different formats. Somehow I think everyone involved is fine with continuing to make bank on it.

To the broader point, there's no way in hell that this block was going to air the hoary old edited dub of Sailor Moon, even if it was available to them instead of rotting away on some old broadcast tapes. The point of this block is to recapture a bit of nostalgia for those old afternoon Toonami runs by using some of its biggest hitters, and if they want anyone to watch, they're going to be using the actual quality versions of these series. Plus, given that [as] Toonami is currently running DBZ Kai and Shippuden and has run OG Naruto in the past, these were presumably pretty cheap pick-ups meant to fill a time slot that probably isn't doing much ratings-wise.
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MarshalBanana



Joined: 31 Aug 2014
Posts: 5431
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2024 1:53 pm Reply with quote
I don't mean to sound dismissive, I didn't even post at first given that it's harmless, but curiosity has got the better of me. What is the point of this? Sure there is Nostalgia, though it's not like you are watching an SD broadcast on a 21" CRT TV, but that only gets you tuned in, what reason do you have to stay once the novelty has worn off.

These shows are widely available in legal form, where you can watch them at your leisure. For some of you, you've probably re-watched these titles not that long ago.

While it would destroy the whole purpose of this, it would far more worthwhile broadcasting different older titles that have a limited availably. I don't think you can get Nippon's Hunter X Hunter anywhere. Instead of Dragon Ball, you could broadcast some of his shorter works each week, like Kosuke & Rikimarua and Go! Go! Ackman, or just do a marathon of Dr Slump. In the long run, it might even be a bigger draw than the billionth re-run of DBZ. It would at least have a good reason for viewers to keep tuning in each week.
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Nipasu



Joined: 11 Aug 2023
Posts: 105
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2024 3:16 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
I just don't believe that the DiC English dub specifically was this type of evil that had to be destroyed/forgotten.

I don't think it's evil; but I can see it being pointless to market when you have an uncut dub that spans the entire series instead of two different dubs that only cover the first four seasons.
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PMDR



Joined: 19 Jan 2006
Posts: 141
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2024 4:40 pm Reply with quote
Their attitude frankly stinks:
Quote:
a bunch of fake 'Toonamis' popped up and died; and I think it was a cross between the wider cultural consciousness moving away from anime and our network having different priorities."


What changed was audience finding other ways to watch anime that didn't require gatekeeping by TV people self-assured that they and only they could possibly deliver a good product.

Even now, Sailor Moon, Naruto and other shows air completely uncut and free of meddling on Pluto. This new thing only brings to the table dubs that a lot of viewers don't need. Golf clap, maybe.

It's also another example of the biggest problem with anime on CN or Toonami or whatever branding they want to use: they keep running the same stuff. Even in these comments, it's viewers eager to see the same shows again. My gosh, do you all not already own all this stuff on home video? Have you not already seen it a dozen times? There are thousands of other anime shows out there getting ignored because this company wants to stick to reruns and the viewers just accept that, even cheer it.

I get nostalgia. But I don't need it picked for me by a TV executive.

The era of TV networks deciding and gatekeeping what the audience sees is over.
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Cardcaptor Takato



Joined: 27 Jan 2018
Posts: 4986
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2024 4:50 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
As some others have mentioned, most have seen it on streaming sites like Hulu, the reboot is in Netflix Jail (the movies), so not sure what else is the end goal here but to rely on "nostalgia" from growing up seeing it as a kid (if you grew up with the dub), or have access with the Japanese subtitles when Pioneer released them (or through fansubs).
The end goal here is Cartoon Network is severely under funded by WBD and their animation studio is on life support and they need to fill their timeslots with junk besides airing endless reruns of their own original shows and airing a bunch of easily available Viz dubs is cheap. I think people are really overthinking the reasoning and coming up with all these arbitrary rules for what Toonami is "allowed" to show when neither DeMarco or anyone at Adult Swim have stated the goal of Toonami Rewind is to exactly recreate the same viewing experience from 30 years ago. At the end of the day the Viz dub of Sailor Moon is on Toonami because DeMarco wants it on there and it's his block and there are easy alternative ways to find the DiC dub online as easy it is to watch the Viz dub on Hulu.
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mgree0032



Joined: 27 Jun 2022
Posts: 277
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2024 5:46 pm Reply with quote
Cardcaptor Takato wrote:
Quote:
As some others have mentioned, most have seen it on streaming sites like Hulu, the reboot is in Netflix Jail (the movies), so not sure what else is the end goal here but to rely on "nostalgia" from growing up seeing it as a kid (if you grew up with the dub), or have access with the Japanese subtitles when Pioneer released them (or through fansubs).
The end goal here is Cartoon Network is severely under funded by WBD and their animation studio is on life support and they need to fill their timeslots with junk besides airing endless reruns of their own original shows and airing a bunch of easily available Viz dubs is cheap. I think people are really overthinking the reasoning and coming up with all these arbitrary rules for what Toonami is "allowed" to show when neither DeMarco or anyone at Adult Swim have stated the goal of Toonami Rewind is to exactly recreate the same viewing experience from 30 years ago. At the end of the day the Viz dub of Sailor Moon is on Toonami because DeMarco wants it on there and it's his block and there are easy alternative ways to find the DiC dub online as easy it is to watch the Viz dub on Hulu.
I think that Toonami Rewind should get the chance to air the Tokyo Mew Mew Power dub as a special premiere because the songs in the dub literally describe and subverts the whole magical girl genre!
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Cardcaptor Takato



Joined: 27 Jan 2018
Posts: 4986
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2024 6:48 pm Reply with quote
mgree0032 wrote:
I think that Toonami Rewind should get the chance to air the Tokyo Mew Mew Power dub as a special premiere because the songs in the dub literally describe and subverts the whole magical girl genre!
That dub is also not coming back for the same reasons Sailor Moon isn't and 4Kids didn't even finish dubbing that show.
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Wyvern



Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 1575
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2024 6:57 pm Reply with quote
To the folks complaining about Toonami using DBZ Kai instead of the original version they grew up with, here is a horrifying fact: DBZ Kai is over 15 years old now. There's now a whole generation of adult fans who grew up with that version.


Moving on:

Nipasu wrote:
I just don't believe that the DiC English dub specifically was this type of evil that had to be destroyed/forgotten.


No one chose to destroy it; it seems like the original materials simply have not been well-preserved due to the rights to the anime changing hands multiple times over the years. DiC had no reason to preserve the original master tapes of their dub once they lost the rights to Sailor Moon; they could never make money off them again, after all. So they fell by the wayside and now the general consensus is that the masters no longer exist, making a proper broadcast impossible.

You can find the dub online, but these are mostly recordings off of TV, or taken from old retail VHS tapes. Those are not of sufficient quality to air on modern-day television. The only hope (in an alternate reality where Toei would actually allow the DiC dub to be broadcast today) would be to get ahold of all the old retail VHS tapes and do some serious restoration and upscaling work on them, which would be quite expensive, much more so than simply paying to air the uncut Viz dub. It just doesn't make sense to go through all that when there's a quality uncut dub that's ready to go.

Also, even back in the old days there were a ton of complaints from fans about the changes made by the dub. This reached its peak with the "cousins" debacle in Sailor Moon S, but it was absolutely around even during the DiC era. People waited a long time for uncut Sailor Moon on Toonami, and now it seems that we're FINALLY getting it! That really shows how far anime has come in the US.
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BadNewsBlues



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 6125
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2024 7:59 pm Reply with quote
PMDR wrote:
Have you not already seen it a dozen times? There are thousands of other anime shows out there getting ignored because this company wants to stick to reruns and the viewers just accept that, even cheer it.


Are we just going to forget that even in their heyday they aired stuff not all of which got over with the audience?

It’s like Marshall Banana alluded to they could air stuff like Dr.Slump and Go Go Ackman. But those are rather obscure and niche anime that might land with the same thud that Prince Of Tennis, Yu Yu Hakusho, Gash Bell, Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo did back in the day.

And then you of course you have TV rights fees which be the actual decider in why they don’t just air those thousands of anime.
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tygerchickchibi



Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Posts: 1468
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2024 8:10 pm Reply with quote
Cardcaptor Takato wrote:
I think people are really overthinking the reasoning and coming up with all these arbitrary rules for what Toonami is "allowed" to show when neither DeMarco or anyone at Adult Swim have stated the goal of Toonami Rewind is to exactly recreate the same viewing experience from 30 years ago. At the end of the day the Viz dub of Sailor Moon is on Toonami because DeMarco wants it on there and it's his block and there are easy alternative ways to find the DiC dub online as easy it is to watch the Viz dub on Hulu.


I disagree; I don't find it to be overthinking at all, and it's not about arbitrary rules either. Toonami started with an action kids block with all of the programming mentioned in this article, so it definitely is trying to create the experience in some way, by calling it a "Rewind Block."
article wrote:

Toonami Rewind will use "classic older Toonami music and some older packaging" that were recreated in HD for an anniversary broadcast.


It's painfully obvious, but ultimately I feel neutral/nothing about this idea.

Also, this is my quote, which is being misunderstood based on the replies:

Quote:
I just don't believe that the DiC English dub specifically was this type of evil that had to be destroyed/forgotten.


I'm talking about the discourse in reference to the old dub, which no one denies that the original release was heavily edited based on broadcast standards. But that doesn't mean that the dub was "bad." Just like Pokemon, Digimon, Yu-Gi-Oh, etc, and other "kid shows". It's not the first, and has not been the last (Thanks for whoever mentioned Glitter Force/Precure earlier).

I have my own personal criticisms about DiC and Viz in their own right (I own several physical copies of both), but this is probably the least important part for me.

To reiterate, I honestly don't care that the Viz version of Sailor Moon it's airing on Cartoon Network, and I don't see a reason why it wouldn't be, especially since it wouldn't make sense to air the old dub due to copyrights, IP, and all that jazz. DiC is part of Sailor Moon, and will always be, but the torch was passed and that part is over now.

On a side note, I'm happy that people enjoy the Viz dub and support it. I would prefer that neither group of fans gatekeep which version one should like better, and just respect each other.

HOWEVER. I don't understand why it took so long to add Sailor Moon to the Toonami block in the first place, especially since the Viz dub was out for almost a decade, it was streaming for a while, and it even has its own channel now on Pluto TV for free (though it's sub only and the episodes aren't chronologically). PMDR basically shares my sentiments.

Maybe it's just nostalgia fatigue for me, but I do believe that there are other shows that should get a chance to air instead.


Last edited by tygerchickchibi on Sat May 18, 2024 8:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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YagamiBlackstone255



Joined: 10 May 2023
Posts: 107
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2024 8:17 pm Reply with quote
tygerchickchibi wrote:
Cardcaptor Takato wrote:
TsarPlatinum wrote:


Because the DIC dub is more iconic and what most Sailor Moon fans in America know and prefer. I bet if this was Pokemon or Digimon or Yu-Gi-Oh or Ghost Stories y'all wouldn't be using the changes as a reason it should be forgotten.
Good thing no one was saying this.


My time to shine, haha

I still give credit to the DiC dub where it's due. It was the closest release to the original version when it was originally marketed as a completely different cartoon in the past. I think the dub fit very well for the audience it was cultivating, and while people still get mad about the "censorship", it's not like censoring anime was exclusive to the US. It's unfortunate, but that is generally the fact of the matter. Sailor Moon isn't anything special when it comes to that aspect of broadcasting, just like DBZ, Gundam, Tenchi Muyo, etc.

On a side note, I didn't like the Viz dub tbh, as one who was actually excited to see it. Not because of the voice cast, but I never really liked the script from the first few seasons, so I stopped watching the dub after R. I did see the movies via Viz and thought the script was a lot better, so I guess it depended on who was writing it. I find the dub cast to be more enjoyable in Crystal as well (with the exception of the movies -- the requirement for the cast to use honorifics made it hard to watch so I just went to the sub instead).

That said, I don't know how successful this block will be. I don't find it as an issue that the Viz dub is released, but unlike some shows, I feel like Sailor Moon has always been kind of an afterthought when it came to the Toonami block in its later years. Not just due to licensing issues, but the Viz dub has been out for years. Dragon Ball Z, Naruto/Boruto, and Gundam have had more exposure under Toonami than Sailor Moon. YashaHime was able to get a premiere on Toonami first -- Sailor Moon wasn't even on the radar.

Additionally, Sailor Moon is the oldest series on this block, and I think that it would have been better that it was added to the block in the earlier days of the show being re-licensed and having a home release. So I feel like it's still kind of gotten terrible treatment (under Toei) even when the reboot was released.

As some others have mentioned, most have seen it on streaming sites like Hulu, the reboot is in Netflix Jail (the movies), so not sure what else is the end goal here but to rely on "nostalgia" from growing up seeing it as a kid (if you grew up with the dub), or have access with the Japanese subtitles when Pioneer released them (or through fansubs).

It won't really be the same experience. Most Toonami shows have been super gritty, so I think Sailor Moon would stick out a bit, and I wonder if it will actually be uncut or still have some editing (like any nudity or transformation). I also think that it's a dated series, full stop. The "monster of the day" aspect was fun back when I was a kid, but I think even now, I prefer Crystal in some ways more than the 90's series itself (And I find the live action series to be 1000% better than Toei's adaptation).

So I hope that the show works out. It's fine that it's embraced under a new generation, but I'm feeling skeptical about how long it can survive on cable tv.


NJ_ wrote:

Regardless, it sounds like Takeuchi wants nothing to do with the old dub (source) and since everything involving Sailor Moon needs her approval, it's unfortunately never coming back legally.


I looked at both sources and I still don't actually see any real quote indicating that Takeuchi disliked the dub at all. I always found it strange that I would see this sentiment, but it mostly came through discussions/speculation. Additionally, I don't really understand why there would be any issue with the dub back then, considering that they allowed R, S, and SuperS to be licensed with most of the same legacy cast. It could've very much been changed back then too.

Anyway, allowing her to approve the dub cast doesn't seem to be out of place since it has happened historically with other anime projects. Additionally, a new Japanese VO cast was in the process for the reboot as well. With the exception of Mitsuishi Kotono, the original cast of the 90's anime were all replaced by younger actors. I think the idea was to get younger, fresh talent, and to give the original series a proper release. Also, to promote Sailor Moon Crystal later on, since most of this happened within the same year, if I'm not mistaken.

I will eat crow if there's a translation of her explicitly stating the re-cast was directly because "old dub bad", but nah. I think it was ultimately just business, with some strings being pulled to get to highest bidder and a new dub was going to happen regardless. I just don't believe that the DiC English dub specifically was this type of evil that had to be destroyed/forgotten.

I guess this is why this will only be aired once a week because it sounds rather experimental.
--

TLDR: I don't think Takeuchi "hated the original dub" as much as people say, and I'll die on that hill, lol. I do think adding Sailor Moon to Toonami now is surprising and should've happened years ago, but due to it being a 30 year old "magical girl" series, not sure how it will survive as it's not as action packed as it's other shows regardless of which dub was released (but I think the old dub is more "action" ish due to it's editing and music choices). Due to its limited programming block schedule it seems like it's a test to see if it will work.


I will go further in that I LOVE the concept of Syndication and TV Broadcasts aimed at kids. The DiC and Cloverway dub of Sailor Moon REALLY scratched all the rights spots, it appealed to kids, introduced to anime and REALLY PUT Cartoon Network and YTV in the limelight. It was not DBZ but Sailor Moon that REALLY started the anime boom that was soon to come. Like how people think it was Power Rangers that put Fox Kids on the map, but the real start was X-Men.

Oops. I missed the point of why I made this post. Some of the censorship in the DiC version, EXTREMELY understandable. Like the famous Nephrite death episode, had him spy on Naru's naked body while she's in bed asleep (!!!) wisely deciding to trim this sequence a bit.

In fact that entire episode is basically the Japanese episode, with Edits, the DiC music and the DiC cast, and to this day is one of my fave episodes of Sailor Moon. When I watch that episode I watch the DiC dub.

Oh and that episode is FAMOUS for the brutal death scene of Nephrite even in the dub, say whatever you want about the censorship but the show could BRUTAL when it really wanted to be, this is a reason why it aged better than 4kids One Piece.

Hope people love the Viz dub though. It starts off clunky but it REALLY gets better in R.
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samuelp
Industry Insider


Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 2240
Location: San Antonio, USA
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2024 8:18 pm Reply with quote
Budgetary reasons aside, I wonder if this is acting as implicit evidence that cable is just aging out of CNs original demo.

Gen Xers like me grew up on this stuff and might literally be the last generation to not have cut the cable at this point. For linear cable programming we might be seeing more and more of this nostalgia bating and less and less investment in new TV programs on linear channels.
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tygerchickchibi



Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Posts: 1468
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2024 8:28 pm Reply with quote
Cable is ageing out and Streaming services have started to outlive their usefulness. That's why streaming services come in cable promotional packaging more frequently now. It's kind of funny how we got here.
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YagamiBlackstone255



Joined: 10 May 2023
Posts: 107
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2024 9:10 pm Reply with quote
samuelp wrote:
Budgetary reasons aside, I wonder if this is acting as implicit evidence that cable is just aging out of CNs original demo.

Gen Xers like me grew up on this stuff and might literally be the last generation to not have cut the cable at this point. For linear cable programming we might be seeing more and more of this nostalgia bating and less and less investment in new TV programs on linear channels.

This. Kids just DONT WATCH TV anymore, Actually they do, but not as much as they used to.

Like for Example Bluey, the biggest hit both in traditional tv and Streaming does 300K viewers.

TV is still profitable, but the Animation Age Ghetto is ironically no longer profitable. Aiming cartoons and nostalgia blocks to nostalgic audiences is the MUCH MORE WISE and safer bet now.

BTW to the guy that wants edited dubs on Toonami, you might want to refocus your efforts to Me TV Toons, same deal as Toonami but FOR FREE, you just need an antenna and a nearby affiliate, dont mind going with edited content, and MUCH higher ratings.

Toon In With Me went from 500k (A number to KILL FOR, specially with the demographic being adults and not children, so its EXTREMELY profitable) to a rumored 1.5 million. The confirmed info is that it outdid Seinfeld AND Friends which also do gangbusters in Reruns.

Heck before this Toonami Rewind thing I wanted to ask Me TV Toons to do Sailor Moon lol.
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